serious question- if they steal the election again, what are you prepared

[UpsideDownFlag]

to do about it?

will you write editorials, and call your representive? will you bitch to your friends?

or will you say, "enough. is. enough."- and take to the streets?

well? What's the plan, stan?

[flowomo]

1. whaddya mean "if".....

wbay.com already ran an AP story declaring Bush the winner. Fold your tent.

[UpsideDownFlag]

3. right, that's part of what inspired this thread.

[mzmolly]

2. I'm prepared to F*cking move.

:hi:

[UpsideDownFlag]

5. i suppose that is a solution, too...

anyplace in particular that suits your fancy?

[mzmolly]

15. Canada ...

:shrug:

If they'll have me. ;)

I honestly don't know what I'll do, but I've considered fleeing b/c if they steal another one, our Democracy is no longer.

[Rockholm]

65. I'm with you Molly!

I was in Montreal last weekend. Great city. Affordable. A tad chilly in the winter.....

[mzmolly]

73. Chilly you say? I'm in MinneSNOwta ... I can take it.

I think ;)

Montreal is supposed to be a great city!

[knowbody0]

7. we may have to fight to take back our nation

and if we do, we have this energy and spirit to collect and drive us.

[Bucky]

31. *ahem* . . . (long dramatic pause) . . . WOLVERINES!!!

WOLVERINES!!!

[mzmolly]

53. What is a (long dramatic pause) ... WOLVERINE?

:shrug:

[sugarcookie]

55. "Red Dawn"

perhaps?

[mzmolly]

56. Not familiar? A movie?

:shrug:

[sugarcookie]

57. Sorry about that...

Yes, a movie with Patrick Swayze and Charlie Sheen. About high school students who become guerrilla fighters against foreign invaders. They call themselves "wolverines".

[mzmolly]

58. Ahhh, LOL. My husbands friend always says "Wolverines"

and I had no clue WTF he was talking about ;)

[SeanQ]

79. LMAO!

Wolverines!!!!

Yeah, if they somehow manage to get * re-elected (which I strongly doubt), and they repeal the 22nd amendment and pass Patriot2, I think I'll be sending my family out of the country.

[flowomo]

4. check this out:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2464498

[UpsideDownFlag]

6. that thread caused me to think about what i'd do, and write this thread.

so what will you do?

[flowomo]

10. ain't gonna happen....

Kerry will win. But I did check out Quebec City this summer.....

[Mojambo]

8. What I would do

I would never, ever be foolish enough discuss on a message board.

I would not be idle and that's all I'll say.

[UpsideDownFlag]

11. ...that is an excellent point.

let's consider this more of an idea-inspiring thread, instead of an even planning thread.

:dunce:

[TankLV]

12. I hear ya - I'm with ya.

nuff said.

[RummyTheDummy]

27. Word!

NT

[crispini]

9. I have saved...

ten vacation days. And if ANYTHING like Florida happens again, I will BE THERE, I will jump in my car and go to ANY STATE to run amok outside the county elections office. I do not intend to let any opportunity to express myself pass by. Not this time, not if I have to drive all night and sleep in my car.

After that, who knows? Play it by ear. General strike? What's everyone else thinking?

[serryjw]

13. Theft is not likely....BUT

both sides have way to many lawyers on the ground. PFAW has thousands of monitors.....what is likely is we NOT KNOW ON 11/2. We could go through the same Bushit and have to wait 45 days for a battle to be settled.

[ZombieNixon]

14. I am prepared to fight to take back my country...

...though Vancouver is nice in April :-). Seriously though. My parents said that we may well move if Chimp "wins." I told them that running away is the least helpful thing we could do. This is the whole problem with liberalism in its current form. Before you flame away, please read on. I think the '80s ruined us. I believe we are experiencing a resurgence (a very, very strong resurgence) now, but in the interim, we (liberals) became too obsessed with spiritual energy and political correctness, which in and of themselves are fine, but must not be allowed to interfere with the promulgation and protection of what we believe. Two Reagan and a Poppy landslide were demoralizing to us, Clinton was the calm before the storm, but we became complacent, and it took this idiot to shock us into action. In a way, we actually have Shrubya to thank for such grand organizations as DU. We have never been so united. It is time to focus that unity into a force that can really kick some neocon ass. If...*screw "if"*...When Kerry wins, the fight has just begun. These jerks are going down, but not before they attempt to drag us down with them. if we run away, it will signal to them that they have won, and we cannot allow that to happen. It is simply unacceptable. We are within a mile of home but we will not get there without a fight.

Am I right, or is the caffeine getting to me?

[txindy]

18. I agree with your point that when John Kerry wins,

this still isn't over. We've got a long way to go before we'll even be close to changing the things * has done in just these last four years.

Although, Canada is a seriously nice place to live. B-) Okay, I'll just visit.

[crispini]

82. I agree.

Good post.

[Smarmie Doofus]

16. Economic Boycott...

of Republican contributors and war profiteers.

Also might be effective to in volve the UN or other int rights groups in a challenge to election fraud. This was not done in any serious way last time; but this time there's nothing to lose; last time, the Dems at least had the Senate... didn't they?

Paul

[maine_raptor]

17. Not sure if they could do it twice.

The 2000 theft could have been stopped. Mike Moore showed how in the beginning of F9/11. The Members of the House can contest ANY electoral college voter when the EC meets to vote. They just have to have ONE Senator to also agree to the objection. In 2000, no Senator joined the Members of the House.

In 2004, I kinda think that there just might be ONE or TWO Senators to join the Members of the House this time.

:D:

[tech3149]

19. Lock & load

and check your sights.

[zulchzulu]

20. Head to DC

Let's just say some people are prepared.

[Burma Jones]

21. This is a serious matter

Some of the older folks in my wife's family are moving their money out of the US, the same way their parents moved their money out of Germany in the 30's (they're Jewish).

There is some fear among people that have been through a fascist takeover that it is happening again. They recognize the propaganda and the "Big Lie."

Me, I just finished a Doctorate in Computer Science and am putting feelers out for positions in Australia, New Zealand and Tasmania.

I have two young children and I do not want them in a USA that has trashed its Constitution, either clandestinely or overtly.

I will not turn violent except to protect the innocent.

[ropi]

23. i've seen some transferring funds in families too

and i've been looking at canada and argentina. hell, my ancestors came from europe with nothing and prospered. i guess i can do the same as they did.

just glad i speak french and spanish both!

[WMliberal]

22. general apathy. increase donations to the sierra club

oh, yeah, i forgot... enigrate to the UK. They'll be dumping Blair soon and replacing him with someone more openly liberal.

[BillZBubb]

24. We will organize. As long as we've got the Internet, we can resist.

I think a general strike along with a total boycott of all corrupt media and businesses that gave large donations to the Repugs would be a start. If we got just half of the Democratic voters to participate, we could shut the country down--peacefully.

We would also have to get the Democrats in the Senate to shut the congress down via filibuster. I mean totally, nothing gets done. Given their usual spinelessness, that might not be possible. It has to happen though.

There are a lot of creative, peaceful guerrilla actions too. We'd have no shortage of motivated participants.

[Oak2004]

25. I've given a lot of thought to this

I am not able to "take to the streets" these days, being as I'm not even healthy enough to walk on the streets. But I'm not convinced that election thievery in 21st Century America can be effectively resisted with letters to the editor. We're not up against common crooked pols. We're up against Straussians, ideological fascists who believe in obtaining and exercizing power through subterfuge.

Nonetheless any resistance movement in the streets needs more than warm bodies in inconvenient locations -- it needs reliable sources of information. I've been publishing alternative sources of information ever since I put out a very successful high school underground newspaper, many many years ago.

In case of a national crisis, we can't assume that we'll be able to access the alternative media that we currently use. DU and other websites could easily be shut down. AAR could have its plug pulled. Openly published center to left publications could disappear. It's therefore important to set up underground media that could spring to life if needed. Websites should be set up on outside-of-the-US servers, with an eye to countries and hosting companies who are inclined and able to shelter American resistance sites. There would need to be multiple such sites to insure that the message got out. Since internet access itself might be made difficult, and in any case isn't universal, it would be a good idea to ready short (1-2 sheet) print newspapers that could be distributed (as well as printed flyers and posters). Stocking up on printer paper and cartridges, and even learning the art of the hectograph, block printing, and screen printing, should electricity be deliberately cut, would all be good ideas.

Setting up strong computer cryptography should go without saying. And a shortwave radio would pull in uncensored news from Canada and Europe.

I won't, of course, announce what, if anything, I'm doing along those lines. But I do think the more who do something along these lines, the more likely we'll all be able to communicate in case of a coup.

[Gyre]

38. I can tell you've thought about this.

Very impressive thinking!:)

Gyre

[SeanQ]

84. Cumputer encryption is a smart idea already!

http://gnupg.org/

My public key

[PermanentRevolution]

26. One thing I'll never do...

I'll never cut and run. This is my home, this is my country, and I'll be damned if I'm going to hand it over to a group of proto-fascist scum. I'm not knocking anyone thinking about a Canadian exodus. That's just not my way. Some feel strongly enough to consider uprooting their lives and moving to a new country. I feel just as strongly that I will stay and fight. They're not taking my country without a battle.

[karlrschneider]

32. Good response. I won't give up either. at least while there're options

but it -might- come down to the 1775 scenario. I hope not, but if it
does, it'll be a tough call whether to fight the bastards or just go away. My SO and I have considered New Zealand (and have immigrant visas and status) if it comes down to that. We shall see. In 3.5 weeks, I guess.

[PermanentRevolution]

45. For me, there's no choice

I'm not a violent person by nature, and I'd hate the thought of it becoming necessary to turn to it in order to keep democracy alive in America, but I'll do whatever it takes. If you're not willing to fight for what you believe, what's the point?

The history of our country has been a history of change accomplished by revolutionary means. Coal miners and railroad workers were slaughtered by corporate death squads for daring to speak out against nightmarish conditions. Black men and women, free and slaves alike, were murdered for speaking out against racism and discrimination. Women starved on the streets rather than submit to inequality. Students died to protest an unjust war. Prisoners at Attica rebelled and were gunned down for demanding they be treated like men and not animals. These are just a handful of the countless thousands of events that served as catalysts, necessary steps in the engine of progress. There are causes worth dying for, if that ultimate sacrifice is what is necessary to propel an issue of grievous injustice to the forefront of the national consciousness.

I hope our situation is not dire enough to require such actions. But, though I may fear for what is yet to come, I will never run from it. And if it becomes necessary to stand in opposition to the current march of neo-fascism, I'll stand until I'm cut down.


Damn, where the hell did all that come from, anyway? Went into full-on revolutionary mode. Sorry 'bout that, but when my blood gets going, the rhetoric tends to flow...

[crispini]

83. The tree of liberty

must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. -- Thomas Jefferson, 1787

[Vincardog]

28. General strike and boycot first

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

29. It's all spelled out in this little document here

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. --That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.


http://www.law.indiana.edu/uslawdocs/declaration.html

I was born into a free nation, and by God I'll die in one. I will NOT consider leaving. My father was wounded for this country's freedom. I can do no less if that's what it comes down to.

[karlrschneider]

33. Exactly! And I have to wonder how many 'neocons' have read it!

:eyes:

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

35. They prefer wiping their asses on it

:evilgrin:

[vetwife]

51. It says a duty of the people....Sounds pretty laid out to me !

Nov 3rd is going to be a real interesting day.

[TexasSissy]

30. This middleaged person will take to the streets. I will not stand

for my vote being taken away. Could be that our country is permanently taken over by a handful of neocons, but I'm not going to give up without shouting about it from the rooftops. I will join a protest, definitely.

[MazeRat7]

34. Get medieval, go guerrilla, and take the fight directly to them....

Oh wait, thats not much different than what I am doing now.. *grin.

MZr7

[NightOwwl]

36. They are going to have a tough time of it this year.

From The Telegraph:
************
Mr Kerry's campaign will dispatch "thousands" of lawyers to polling stations to combat any sign of Republican dirty tricks.

Five mobile "Swat" teams of top lawyers, will be ready to assist people if they run into suspicious obstacles or technical difficulties. Voters, especially black people, were told Republicans could be plotting to disenfranchise them.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/10/06/wus06.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/10/06/ixworld.html
*************

Kerry's on top of it.

[cire4]

39. It's sooo nice to hear that

Kerry is anticipating Bushco to steal the election.

I'm still convinced, though, that this election will be decided in the courts yet again...

[PermanentRevolution]

49. Donate now!

John Kerry General Election Legal and Accounting Compliance fund is taking contributions.

https://contribute.johnkerry.com/gelac.html

"The Federal Election Commission has just granted our request to raise funds now to cover recount expenses. Your contribution to Kerry-Edwards 2004 GELAC will provide the resources to make sure we are prepared to win the post election day battles."

I sent $50 that I can't afford... it's PB&J for a week or so.

[Norquist Nemesis]

40. I think the locals are on top of it too

at least here in my county/township. I got an email from our local Dems about signing up for judges and watchers with info to RSVP, dates, training, etc.

I really hate to say it, but I've already told (and convinced) my husband that if Bush wins, we have to get out. It pains me like you can't imagine.

The thing is, if he wins, I have no hope for this country to get back on track in my lifetime. I not only can't bear it, but I feel such a threat to our well-being both personally (due to being on "the left") and for my family in terms of our security. We also have two children of draft age.

We will be looking to get out. :(

[Erika]

46. We've Been Thinking Of Getting Out Also

Bush has shown he will use our taxes for corporate globalism while turning our country into a banana republic. We are paying for universal health care for other countries but denying it for our own.
We are saying they are deserving but our own citizens are not unless they can pay for it themselves. In the meantime, Bush's buddies are upping health care costs without restraint.

[Erika]

37. Our Family Is Willing to Wear Sandwich Boards

stating that our taxes are being used for purposes we don't believe in. We will also picket the recruiting sites who wish to steal our kids to die for corporate profits. It will be ugly and it won't stop.
Bush is fighting for global corporatism and we're fighting for our country.

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Lerkfish]

42. I'm convinced I'll be outed by the brownshirts and gitmo-ized.

honestly. that's the logical end of his policies: where anyone who speaks out is sent to gitmo as political prisoners.
And I work with a rabid freeper who's just the jerk to turn me in.

If we don't win 2004, there will not be a 2008.

[Hello_Kitty]

47. At least we'll be in Gitmo with cool people

Like Al Franken, Randi Rhodes, and Janeane Garofolo!

[UpsideDownFlag]

68. well, i hope it won't come to that...but it sure is a good motivator.

*sigh*

[nemo137]

43. Remeber what happened in Georgia to Shakashvili?

essactly.

[Erika]

44. Again, We Will Fight If Bush Steals Another Election

It won't be pretty and we won't let up.

[choicevoice]

48. Think Big

The fact that this is being discussed in America in 2004 is frightening. Unfortunately it is necessary to discuss. They can arrest 3000 people they can't arrest 3 million people. Everyone drive their cars to DC, take over every street surrounding every government agency and park and lock them. Take to the streets peacefully and make sure news agencies from around the world are watching. Shut our government down. It would no longer be a government of the people at that time anyway. OK, maybe its late and I am feeling a bit overzealous.

[Erika]

50. We Will Fight Back

Rest assured, Our family has no plan on Bushco to turn our country into a banana republic while stealing our kids lives to feed corporatism. You'll see revolt as you've never seen it.

[Silver Gaia]

52. I'm new here, you guys...

I just wanted to say thank you for this thread. You gave me hope. A right-wing idiot on another board I post on (it's a mix of political ideas there) posted the "test" article that prompted this thread tonight, acting like he thought it was a such a great JOKE (ugh), and got everyone on the liberal side there so upset. I came here to calm down from that, but instead find myself fired up with hope that we won't let this happen again... at least not without standing up and fighting for our country. I hope it doesn't come to that, and I also find it incredibly sad that it's even necessary to think about what we'd do--but it is. I want to hope for the best... but I'm always prepared for the worst, too. That's wise under the circumstances, I think... Anyhow... thanks for these words tonight.

[liberal N proud]

54. I know where there is a remote cabin where there are no roads

No phone, No TV.
You could live there and no one would ever know it.
It is a real possibility

[Dem2theMax]

60. Does it have enough bathrooms for all of us?

;)

Dibs on the floor in the corner by the fireplace. I'll bring my sleeping bag. Save the beds for others.

Ok, had to be silly for a second. The thread has my stomach in knots. Wish I had the $$$ to be able to get out and take my parents with me. Since I don't, it's stay and fight. In whatever form that takes. But the corner by the fireplace sounds good.

[liberal N proud]

70. Sorry, No running water

The outhouse does have 2 holes though!

[ScreamingMeemie]

59. We are already hearing of things (i.e. voter fraud and disenfranchisement)

that we would never have heard of in 2000. I am really hopeful, almost optimistic that the voter turnout/i.e. Kerry landslide will be so huge that even BBV won't be able to overcome it. :hi:

[secular_warrior]

61. Take to the streets - continuous and massive non-violent resistance

If we simply sit by and accept another theft we would not be doing our patriotic duty. Our founding fathers and all the men and women who died fighting for liberty abroad and here on main street for our freedom an civil rights would expect us to fight and die if neccessary.

If they steal it we must take to the streets -- continuous and massive non-violent resistance. We will shut BushCo down and hold all of their appeasers/supporters accountable.

I cannot and will not stand idly by and accept the Neo-Fascist takeover of my country.

[sherilocks]

62. We can't repeat the mistakes of 2000

I live in Florida. Here's a few things that we can't do:

At one of the recounts that I was at, the DNC sent a lawyer who let a rethug trouble-maker from Texas run amok, leaving me to fight her off alone.

My local Dem party meekly accepted the final results, and regarded the few of us that were outraged as nuts.

Sit back and wait four more years.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

67. You won't.

Barring massive fraud, you're going to lose this one.

[0007]

64. As soon as the draft is enacted the people will take to the streets

if junior steals the election again. There is no way this country is voting for junior. He may even lose Texas if the election is on the square.

The 60's will appear mild compared to what is about to happen if junior stays in power.

[NoPasaran]

66. Resist

It'd be pretty foolish to discuss it here. But I have no family and I will not live under theocratic facism.

[On the Road]

69. The Second Amendment

was written for this reason. The American people do not have to accept an illegitimate government. (And I don't own a gun BTW.)

[Clobbersaurus]

71. WE NEED TO PLAN NOW!

I never gave a DAMN about politics before 2000. I am ashamed to say that, except for Presidential elections, I never voted at all. I didn't think all that much and I CERTAINLY never even thought about protesting ANYTHING. That all seems so long ago now. Today, I am so angry and so scared, that come November 3rd, I'm willing to do whatever it takes to take this country back. I don't want to cut and run. Canada is the last resort.

I feel like we're in a strangely good position for this type of activity. Think of how completely underestimated the gay movement has been. Repugs and neo-cons didn't think that silly queers could possibly fight for anything. I've come to see that this is what they think of liberals in general. They don't really think we'll have the balls to stand up to them, take to the streets and take it all back. I don't even think they'll see us coming.

I continue to remain cautiously optimistic that it will not come down to this, but we would be foolish to not start making some contingency plans now.

DC is the logical place to stage a large scale protest. I live in Maryland, 5 miles north of the DC line. I propose that we begin organizing 2 groups. 1) DC area DUers willing to offer up their homes, food, cars, money to out of towners and provide logistical support for the planning process and 2) protesters coming in from out of state that need places to stay and who can volunteer from a far for now. We need permits, a plan, organization, and mobilization - all this can't be done the day of November 3rd.

I have ZERO experience with this, but am willing to do whatever I can. Is there anyone out there (individual or group) with the experience and logistical capacity to begin this process? Educate me! How can do we start?

[SeanQ]

85. The only planning you really need to be doing now

is to get to know everyone in your area that is of like mind. This forum is not where any useful long-term plans will be made. Assess what you would be willing and able to do (I would of course personally urge for massive peacful resistance) and what your resources are. Build and expand your network of trusted like-minded individuals. And if it does come to resistance, it will be organizing your local group, whether to go to a protest or whatever, where your efforts will start.

JMHO

[northernsoul]

72. finish my law degree, raise hell

If any of you "take it to the streets" folks end up having a slight misunderstanding with The Ashcroft Gang, let me know.

[MAlibdem]

74. Streets/Hills

And there are at least 1000+ here on campus who'd join me. I mean, the evidence would have to be there. Show me the evidence, and I'ma takin to the streets.

[grace0418]

75. I took to the streets before the war and I'll take to the streets again

BushCo is going to lose, either way. I hope they get the hint that we're on to their cheating and manipulating, but if not, I will be exercising my 1st ammendment right in a big way.

[leftofthedial]

76. talk isn't working, so . . .

. . .

[HEIL PRESIDENT GOD]

77. Leaving the US

I've been working on this "plan" since Bush came into office. I'm going to be one of those overseas voters in 2008 whether Kerry wins or not.

[Walt Starr]

78. I'm not prepared to discuss it on an internet message board n/t

[Rambis]

80. Takin it to the street n/t

xxxx

[TrogL]

81. I'll talk to the Canadian government about immigration

Loosening up the rules for letting Americans immigrate to Canada even if they have to be accepted as refugees.

[toddaa]

86. H.L. Mencken said it best

"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."