Who's telling the truth - Joe Kennedy or Wes Clark ?

[Hoppin_Mad]

Rep. Joe Kennedy press advisory. 27 September, 1996

WASHINGTON-- U.S. Rep. Joseph P. Kennedy II (D-Mass),   citing new documents linking the U.S. Army School of the Americas to training in murder and torture,  today renewed calls on the Clinton Administration to shut down the facility.

The 8th District Representative also urged the release of three protesters imprisoned for demonstrating at the school.

"Fifty years ago this month, the U.S. Army School of the Americas opened its doors in Panama," said Congressman Kennedy during a press conference on Capitol Hill. "I come here today, a half century later, to say it's time to shut the school down."

Congressman Kennedy, joined by Reps. Marty Meehan (D-Mass.), Carolyn Maloney (D-NY) and Sam Farr (D-Calif.) said   recent revelations by the Pentagon that torture manuals were used in the school's curriculum  were the "smoking gun" justifying closure of the facility located in Ft. Benning, Georgia.

  According to excerpts released by the Pentagon, School of the Americas students were advised to handle intelligence sources by imprisoning them or jailing their parents. The manuals instructed students in the use of "motivation by fear," paying bounties for enemy dead, executing opponents, subverting the press and using torture, blackmail and even injections of truth serum to obtain information.  

"These tactics come right out of an SS manual and have no place in a civilized society. They certainly have no place in any course taught with taxpayer dollars on U.S. soil by members of our own military," said Congressman Kennedy.


http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/40/025.html

--------------

Irene" of Concord, NH asked Gen. Clark on January 8, 2004 at the Havenwood Retirement Community about his continued support of the School of the Americas (SOA).

(Note: Clark was in charge of the Southern Command, 96-97, which oversees the SOA.)

Irene asked, "You've stated repeatedly that you support the School of the Americas. In November of last year you were asked by a NH citizen about the many documented Human Rights abuses committed by SOA graduates. At the time you replied, "Imagine the things that would have happened if these soldiers hadn't been taught our principles of Democracy" and that you thought the school was "a good thing" and you "wouldn't kill it." Can you explain this position in light of the fact that many of the teaching materials used at the SOA involved methods of torture?"

Clark challenged the elderly woman (Irene) who asked the question by asking,  "Have you seen these teaching materials?"  

Irene responded that that no, she hadn't, but knew others who had.

  Clark assured her that they didn't exist.  

He also stated,   "We're teaching police procedures and human rights . . . we don't teach torture . . .   (We've) never taught torture."    

http://www.birddogger.org/news.php?id=150

[xultar]

1. ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz n/t

[slinkerwink]

16. weak attempt at deflecting the real questions of this post.

[xultar]

19. Gee you're good n/t

[bitchkitty]

42. Oh, now -

don't blame xultar. Stories about torture and murder, are just BORING! Let's talk about Dean's temper! Get with the program!

[Hoppin_Mad]

43. Maybe more about Judith Dean's looks as well -eom-

[Bombtrack]

49. this is something I disagree with him on

but it doesn't come close to overshadowing all the good he has done in his career and for his country.

I considered majoring in Latin American studies so I feel I've had a well rounded look at the US policy in the Region from all our presidents.

The purpouse of the school isn't to teach terrorism, it's to serve western interests, and certain people involved have certainly gone overboard.

But this doesn't make Clark Henry Kissinger, someone I see as singularly responsible for more American shame than any other living person.

[Cheswick2.0]

21. no answer huh?

[Terwilliger]

37. look, if you want Clark painted as anything resembling liberal...

he'd better address this issue. It's clear that the SOA is heavily involved in kingmaking and coup plots...if Clark believes in that, then he's just as bad as Bush.

[sandnsea]

2. Kerry sponsored Senate bill to close it

"U.S. Rep. Joseph P. Kennedy II, a UMass Boston alumnus, sponsored a bill to close SOA. The most recent vote lost by 217-210 margin. "We're getting close. That vote has pumped new life into the movement," Bourgeois said. Sen. John Kerry has co-sponsored a similar bill in the Senate. Sen. Joseph Moakley has also spoken out against injustices in South America."

http://www.umb.edu/news/1997news/reporter/ureporter1197/bourgeois.html

But he voted for the war. Can't have him. :eyes:

[xultar]

5. I admire Kerry for his attempt. It will close one day. n/t

[mike_c]

25. not if Wesley Clark has anything to do with it....

By his own admission, he supports the mission of the SOA (now WHISC), one of the most shameful, and long-running chapters in U.S. foreign policy.

[Walt Starr]

7. Kerry's my number two pick these days

Clark's history with the SOA puts him dead last with me, several levels below Lieberman, IMO.

[Melinda]

17. Yes we can - Senator Kerry is my number two. eom.

[JVS]

26. Kerry is becoming a more and more likable alternative to Clark

[Walt Starr]

38. If Howard Dean were not in this race

I'd have to go for Kerry.

Lieberman is more acceptable to me than Clark.

[Sean Reynolds]

47. Here I thought I was the only one that believed that.

:D

[ozone_man]

45. I will vote for Kerry if he wins.

I cannot say that for Clark or Lieberman, but Kerry is now my number three, after Dean and Kucinich.

I look at the integral of a politicians accomplishments and Kerry has done well, I'm just not pleased about the Iraq war and some of his justifications, among other things. He does not have the fortitude that Dean has and seems to be drawn into the PNAC way of thinking. But, he really does stand as a clear difference as compared Bush, while Clark and Lieberman don't.

[sandnsea]

60. That's so sad

The PNAC way of thinking. I cannot even imagine where people get this stuff. Did you watch C-Span yesterday? Did you hear him talk about all the Republican dictator and foreign interference he's fought against and actually stopped? Dean doesn't have a fucking clue and it's obvious based on his I/P statements alone. Not to mention the 101 different opinions about whether Saddam was a threat and whether war was necessary or whatever the hell is view of the day is. Fortitude. It takes no fortitude if you don't give a shit about the truth and get away with changing your mind anytime you want to. Unless you think fortitude is the ability to lie day after day with no conscience about it. Kerry is very clearly against the type of PNAC domination Bush is conducting. It's just beyond ludicrous to think otherwise.

[xultar]

3. Please go ahead and type a really long opinion post

on this subject and get it all out there in the open.

What is it you're trying to say? Just say it already.

[Melinda]

10. I'll say it. I don't want the MIC in the White House

And I am shocked at the number of supposed "liberals" here who are proponents of the Military Industrial Complex and the candidacy of its representative warrior.

The US has committed and turned a blind eye to more world wide atrocities in the name of "national security" since WWII than any other country, and I am sickened at the thought that anyone in our party thinks a Clark presidency will somehow make it all better.

Just as I wonder about Bush, I wonder how well Clark sleeps at night with all that blood on his hands.

[Eloriel]

hey, Melinda

If you haven't noticed, not that many people are claiming to be liberals on this board anymore.

:-(

Eloriel

[Hoppin_Mad]

35. Yes - DU has taken a dramatic turn to the right

I'm really suprised Lieberman is not more popular here !

Has anyone been alerting the Lieberman Blog ?

[Eloriel]

23. hey, Melinda

If you haven't noticed, not that many people are claiming to be liberals on this board anymore.

:-(

Eloriel

[Melinda]

33. Hey, Eloriel - we've surely been missing your voice here.

I do not know this DemocraticUnderground. :(

[Hoppin_Mad]

13. Why is Clark unable and unwilling to admit that the SOA taught torture ?

That's the point. Even with the DOD's admission that the SOA tuaght torture - Clark REFUSES to admit to it.


It calls into question issues of honesty and character much more than any carefully crafted campiagn speech can.

-edit grammar-

[mike_c]

27. Clark refuses to admit it because HE was directly involved...

...through his role in the SC. Admitting the excesses of the WHISC now would shine a very unfavorable light on Clark's past. That's a light that he wants to avoid at all costs.

[Hoppin_Mad]

30. We all make mistakes - If Clark would admit to his

regarding his support of the SOA, and the bombing of Vieques, the progressives to whom these issues matter might begin to warm up to him.

[Cheswick2.0]

22. I'll say it

I don't want clark anywhere near the white house.

[dogman]

4. Check the time line.

Kennedy 96. Clark 96-97. Clark made changes.

[xultar]

6. Logic, Ahhhh, logic...n/t

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

8. let's hear more

...

[Hoppin_Mad]

9. Clark RESISTED the changes -eom-

[ShimokitaJer]

11. Clark made changes?

Gee, wouldn't that be something he'd want to highlight? His involvement in transforming this institution which formerly used techniques such as those mentioned by Joe Kennedy into a kinder gentler institution in only a year's time certainly demonstrates his moral nature as an honorable American military leader, and indeed as a potential presidential candidate.

Of course, I'm sure you read between the lines and got all that from his "they don't exist" comment. To me, it sounds like denial that any such material ever existed. But of course, I'm not a rabid Clark supporter.

[Hoppin_Mad]

15. Very good point -nt-

[mike_c]

29. no he didn't...

...other than giving a commencement address at SOA Clark pretty much ignored what was going on there. BTW, the text of that address is available on the web-- Clark praises the graduates profusely, then sends them off to continue the war on poor people in OUR name in Latin America.

[retyred]

12. This is pathetic

retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[w13rd0]

18. Yes, the "see no evil" approach...

...is quite pathetic.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. Obsessed a little? Are we?

:eyes:
Here's a different perspective from a scholar. I'm NOT saying that the atrocities are not horrendous, they are. Not everyone who graduated went on a killing spree...look at Costa Rica.

<snip>The demonstrators believe that torture and other abuses of human rights are skills that the Latin American military have learned at the school. The reality is that these practices have been commonplace in Latin America going back 500 years to the conquistador colonizers. As in Spain and Portugal until recent decades, the Latin American military have regarded themselves as above the law, a posture reflected not only in widespread abuses of human rights but also in pervasive corruption and repeated military coups.

The idea of civilian control of the military, so central to our own concepts of civil-military relationships, has been alien to Latin America until recently. The only country that has succeeded in avoiding military abuse and corruption is Costa Rica, which did away with its armed forces after the 1948 revolution. Yet Costa Rica values the school’s training highly: 2500 members of its police forces have studied there.


Abuse of human rights, including torture and assassination, has not been confined to right-wing caudillos like Trujillo in the Dominican Republic, the Somozas in Nicaragua, the Argentine generals and admirals who prosecuted the "Dirty War" of the 1970s, and Pinochet in Chile. The caudillos of the left — Castro and the Sandinistas — as well as left-wing terrorists around the region, have behaved similarly.

A comment in 1845 by the renowned Argentine author and statesman Domingo Faustino Sarmiento is relevant: "Terror is a sickness that infects people like cholera, smallpox or scarlet fever. ... Don’t laugh, people of Latin America.. .. Remember that you are Spanish, and that is how the Inquisition educated Spain. Be careful, then!"

http://carlisle-www.army.mil/usamhi/usarsa/RELEASES/COMMENTS/Newspaper%20Article%20by%20Lawrence%20Harrison%20-%20Nov26-99.htm

Lawrence E. Harrison, a year-round resident of Vineyard Haven, is a senior fellow at the Academy for International and Area Studies at Harvard University. He directed five USA ID missions in Latin America between 1965 and 1981. His most recent book is The Pan-American Dream (Basic Books, 1997).

Here's Lawrence E. Harrison's biography. I think he knows a bit about Latin America.
<snip>
Lawrence E. Harrison

Lawrence E. Harrison teaches and directs a research project at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University. He is also an associate of Harvard University's Academy for International and Area Studies.

Harrison was for twenty years (1962-82) an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development. During those years, he directed USAID missions in five Latin American countries: Nicaragua (1979-81), Haiti (1977-79), Guatemala (Central American Regional Office: 1975-77), Costa Rica (1969-71), and the Dominican Republic (Deputy and Acting Director, 1965-68).

Since retiring from USAID in 1982, he has written three books on the relationship between cultural values and human progress: "Underdevelopment Is a State of Mind--The Latin American Case" (1985); "Who Prospers?" (1992); and "The Pan-American Dream" (1997). There are Spanish editions of each; "Underdevelopment Is a State of Mind" has also been published in Portuguese; and "Who Prospers?" has also been published in Chinese.

The books were written while he was affiliated with the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs at Harvard University. He has also been a visiting scholar at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology and the Central American Business Administration Institute.<snip>

http://www.iris.umd.edu/PPC_IDEAS/Revolutionizing_Aid/brownbags/harrison_bb.htm


-------------------------------------------------------------

Costa Rica doesn't have an army. So? Where are the atrocities used that they were taught. I assume everyone went through the same courses. Why not in Costa Rica? Why haven't we seen human rights violations by them?

[Hoppin_Mad]

24. You are actually QUOTING Lawrence Harrison ? ! ! !

Is Shockely (sp) next ?

" One idea brought up in class was the cultural explanation put forth by Lawrence Harrison , a former USAID official and author of wonderfully titled books like 'Underdevelopment is a State of Mind'. From what I have read of one of Harrison's works (I could only get through a couple of chapters before wanting to burn the book), his "cultural" explanation of Latin American underdevelopment seemed little more than thinly-veiled ethnocentrism. He seems to argue that Latin America is underdeveloped because it is full of Latin Americans. "

[Bolo Boffin]

48. Avoiding the point, are we?

If SOA is the heinous influence you claim it is, why isn't Costa Rica awash in human rights violations?

Because the abuse of human rights is not a function of SOA training, it's a function of local culture. SOA doesn't teach human rights abuse, and Wesley Clark has promised to close the school if anybody can show that they are.

[Hoppin_Mad]

51. Costa Rica disolved its army in 1946 -eom-

[Melinda]

55. "If SOA is the heinous influence you claim it is" - Are you liberal, bolo?

[Bolo Boffin]

57. Yes, I am.

I've got a whole blog to back me up, as well as two years at the Smirking Chimp and a year and a half here.

Notice that little star next to my DU handle?

What's your point?

And why won't you discuss the real point - if SOA is doing what you say it is, why doesn't Costa Rica have the same problems?

Because it's not about the SOA, it's about the local cultures.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bolo Boffin]

67. Many assumptions, few attempts to deal with the questions

Believe what you want about me, Melinda. I don't care.

I'm about to go mourn the loss of my grandfather, an IBEW organizer, an Democrat in Alabama when all the Dixiecrats found their racist hypocritical way to the Repukes. These are facts.

And you can't answer the questions. This is another fact.

What about Costa Rica? Why shouldn't Dean immediately repudiate Gore's endorsement?

[Cheswick2.0]

20. Joe Kennedy

!

[slinkerwink]

31. Definitely Ted Kennedy!

[Hoppin_Mad]

82. No it was Joe, not Ted -eom-

[jonnyblitz]

28. Joe Kennedy. n/t

[xultar]

32. Al Gore and the SOA

Al gore voiced support for SOA
http://www.onlineathens.com/stories/102100/opi_1021000004.shtml
On the campaign trail, only Green Party presidential candidate Ralph Nader has come out against the School of the Americas, while both Al Gore and George W. Bush voice support for the facility.
Only a vocal and growing peace movement can stop the school of atrocity at Fort Benning. As Father Roy Bourgeois said here in Athens on Oct. 12, ''The truth cannot be silenced.''


Clinton & Gore - Business in Columbia & SOA
http://www.frso.org/fight/2000fallsupp/closesoa.html

Clinton and Gore's Plan Colombia has unleashed a type of fascist terror in parts of Colombia. Trained and directed by Colombia's S.O.A.-educated military, with over 10,000 S.O.A. graduates, the paramilitary death squads are at the core of the CIA/Pentagon/White House Plan Colombia. The paramilitaries' job is to terrorize both rural and urban populations into submission. Anyone who acts to organize their community, school, work place, or farm becomes a "legitimate target" because they are a threat to "national security".

Clinton stomped all over the human rights requirements in the $1,300,000,000 Plan Colombia aid package. He approved the funding, in spite of the fact that only one of the seven human rights requirements were met by the Colombian government and military. Clinton and Gore do not care about human rights.

Clinton and Gore both know the Colombian war is for preserving the economic domination of U.S. big business. Al Gore knows he has to defend his own and his billionaire/millionaire friends' ownership of oil, silver, minerals, bananas, coffee, technology, and waterways. While the number one business in the world is weapons, the number two business is illegal drugs, and the capitalist class that runs the U.S. has the commanding interest in both markets. The rich rulers of the U.S. will not allow either market out of their control. The S.O.A. is the rich man's University of State Terror.


---Midway next to photo of Martin Sheen---
SOA Watch Says Peaceful Protesters Welcome To Join
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/111900-01.htm

But at least hundreds stood in a cold drizzle of rain as perhaps 200 others paraded down Fort Benning Road carrying puppets and placards - some depicting Vice President Al Gore and Texas Gov. George W. Bush as themselves puppets of a corporate world order.

http://www.antiwarcommittee.org/Newsletters/Fall2000.pdf

[Hoppin_Mad]

34. Thanks ! Gore just lost my hypothetical write-in vote in Nov ! :-) -eom

[Melinda]

36. So you're admitting Joe Kennedy was right! Thank you Xultar!!

[xultar]

46. Your Prince Al Gore Supports SOA, which links now to DEAN.

So, DEAN now supports SOA?

Just a question...

[Melinda]

53. "My Prince Al Gore"? Do you repudiate Gore, xultar? Did you vote 4 Gore?

If not, for whom did you vote for in 2000?

[Bolo Boffin]

58. Why are you attacking the messenger...

...instead of dealing with what they have to say, Melinda?

[Melinda]

62. "My Prince", bolo? Remove the plank from your eye, please.

:eyes:

[Bolo Boffin]

63. xultar said "My Prince," Melinda

Not me. Please answer the question we're asking.

Why shouldn't Dean immediately repudiate Al "I Support the SOA" Gore's endorsement?

[Melinda]

65. And it was xultar I responded to, not you. What's your point?

Your answers are below at the posts I adressed to you. Look there.

[Bolo Boffin]

69. Can't answer the questions, so you're questioning our liberalism

That's attacking the messenger. It's a heaping helping of ad hominem.

Why don't you try dealing with the questions? Your "answers" weren't answers at all.

What about Costa Rica?

Why shouldn't Dean repudiate Gore's endorsement immediately, or lose your support?

Why won't you answer these questions?

[Hoppin_Mad]

70. So you agree with FAR-right (many call him racist) Lawrence Harrison ?

Who worked at the U.S.A.I.D. - which was linked to the Contras, and CIA dirty tricks all over the globe ?

Lawrence Harrison and Sam Huntington have claimed in their dubious book "Culture Matters" that there is an inherent desire by the people of the developing countries to be governed by dictators.


"One idea brought up in class was the cultural explanation put forth by Lawrence Harrison , a former USAID official and author of wonderfully titled books like 'Underdevelopment is a State of Mind'. From what I have read of one of Harrison's works (I could only get through a couple of chapters before wanting to burn the book), his "cultural" explanation of Latin American underdevelopment seemed little more than thinly-veiled ethnocentrism. He seems to argue that Latin America is underdeveloped because it is full of Latin Americans. "

[Bolo Boffin]

71. Hoppin_Mad, another poster eager to avoid our questions

Truth is truth, no matter who points it out.

What about Costa Rica, HM?

Why shouldn't Dean immediately repudiate Gore's endorsement, or lose your support?

[Hoppin_Mad]

75. The SOA never distributed torture manuals in Costa Rica - READ THIS !

VERBATIM from the Pentagon ( material in parenthesis mine )

"USSOUTHCOM Mobile Training Teams distributed copies of the seven manuals listed at Tab G ( the torture and execution manuals ) in five Latin American Countries ( Columbia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru. We found that as many as a thousand copies may have been distributed in the USSOUTHCOM area from 1987 to 1989 and at the USSOA ( School of the Americas ) from 1989 to 1991"

Do you SEE Costa Rica listed there ?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/archive/news/dodmans.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

79. "Inconsistent with U.S. Policy"

Let's see here, lots of information here...

Seven Spanish-language manuals were compiled in the mid-1980's for use in intelligence courses.
The Manuals were not submitted to the appropriate command for review and approval of their contents.
The manuals were written in Spanish only; no English translation was prepared when they were compiled.

These manuals weren't reviewed and approved by command.

The manuals were used for training by Mobile Training Teams in Latin America from 1987 to 1989 and by the School of the Americas from 1989 to 1991.
The manuals were distributed to students in the courses and to intelligence schools in several Latin American countries.
Instructors incorrectly assumed that the information in the manuals was consistent with approved doctrine.

The instructors didn't realize that the manuals had these short passages in them.

In 1991 and 1992, the Assistant to the Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Oversight conducted an investigation concerning the preparation of these manuals
The investigation concluded that about two dozen short passages in six of the manuals, which total 1169 pages, contained material that either was not or could be interpreted not to be consistent with U.S. policy.
There was no evidence that there was a deliberate attempt to violate Army or Defense policies in the preparation of these manuals.
Objectionable and questionable passages identified in the investigations are listed on the attached summary pages.

The problem was finally recognized...

The Secretary of Defense approved the report of the investigation and accepted its recommendations.
The Department of Defense discontinued the use of the manuals, directed their recovery to the extent practicable, and destroyed the copies in the field.

*U.S. Southern Command advised governments in Latin America that the manuals contained passages that did not represent U.S. government policy, and pursued recovery of the manuals from the governments and some individual students.
*All manuals under control of the Defense Department were destroyed, except for one record copy retained by the Office of the General Counsel, Department of Defense.

The Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence reported the results of the investigation and the corrective action to the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence.
The Assistant Secretary of Defense for Command, Control, Communications and Intelligence issued a memorandum stating the Defense Department policy in clear and emphatic terms.

...and the manuals were taken out of the curriculum and destroyed. Real US policy was immediately underlined and re-emphasized.

Thanks for the link. You've shown without a doubt that the US wasn't teaching human rights abuses and took action to eliminate questionable materials when they were brought to command attention. No wonder Clark supports such an honorable institution.

[Hoppin_Mad]

81. I'm STUNNED you would actually say this

"No wonder Clark supports such an honorable institution. "

I have to find some place new to hang out. This place with its staunch supporters of the SOA is becoming an alternate-reality version of Free Republic.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

39. thanks xultar.

for supporting joe kennedy and not wes clark :)

[Terwilliger]

40. You float that as if Clinton didn't support it

looks like everybody is wrong, and that's not an endorsement of Clark and his position on the matter

[mike_c]

41. you cite THIS as justification for Clark's support of the SOA?!?!

Clinton and Gore both know the Colombian war is for preserving the economic domination of U.S. big business. Al Gore knows he has to defend his own and his billionaire/millionaire friends' ownership of oil, silver, minerals, bananas, coffee, technology, and waterways. While the number one business in the world is weapons, the number two business is illegal drugs, and the capitalist class that runs the U.S. has the commanding interest in both markets. The rich rulers of the U.S. will not allow either market out of their control. The S.O.A. is the rich man's University of State Terror.

Give that person a golden cattle-prod for the most bass-akward argument of the day....

[Crunchy Frog]

44. Thank you for pointing this out xultar.

I wonder if Al Gore is going to continue to be seen as such a hero here after these revelations.

For the record, I think that Clarks position on SOA is wrong, but with this info on Al Gore, it looks like he's at least in good company.

[Bolo Boffin]

50. Obviously Dean must immediately repudiate Al Gore's endorsement.

Anything else would be tacit support of the SOA.

[Melinda]

54. For whom did you vote in 2000? Did you vote for Gore?

[Bolo Boffin]

56. Yes, I did.

But then I don't think the SOA to be the institution you believe it to be. I'm fine with Clark's endorsement of the school as is, but since you are up in arms about it, you must understand that Gore supported the school, and you should thus be demanding Dean repudiate Gore's endorsement.

If you're going to be consistent, that is.

[Melinda]

59. As one who has protested the SOA at Ft Benning & risked arrest

My conscience is clear. Both Clinton, Gore, and every administration going back to Nixon's has heard directly from me on this issue (along with all others concerning American polices in re war, death, destruction, HRV, and unconscionable sanctions resultant in the deaths of millions of children), and I mailed Gov. Dean earlier today.

My consistency isn't at issue and neither is my credibility - General Clark is another matter altogether.

[Bolo Boffin]

61. That's excellent, Melinda.

Now address the point.

What about Costa Rica?

On edit: Whoops, wrong point down here. Why shouldn't Dean repudiate Al "I Support the SOA" Gore's endorsement?

Some enlightenment on the Costa Rica question would be nice as well.

[Melinda]

66. Here's a good place to start:

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Terrorism/SOA.html

Educate yourself if you dare, and we'll talk later. :hi:

[Bolo Boffin]

68. Nothing about Costa Rica or Al Gore at that link...

...got another?

[Hoppin_Mad]

72. This isn't about Gore or Costa Rica - It's about Clark

Continuing to deny and defend, even in the face of the PENTAGON admitting the SOA taught torture, execution, and repression.

He's in denial.

[Bolo Boffin]

74. Ah, the ways we duck and weave...

....when we don't like the questions.

The Costa Rica question is at the heart of this discussion. If SOA does the things you claim it's doing, why have Costa Rican graduates been exempted from their influence?

The answer is that the atrocities commited by SOA graduates are not a function of SOA teaching, but of the local political and military cultures of the various Latin American countries. Since the SOA is not teaching what you claim it to be teaching, Clark's continued defense of the SOA is not the dealbreaker you continue to claim it to be.

The Al Gore question simply demonstrates the inconsistency of your position. Since Gore endorses both the SOA and Dean, you would be demanding Dean repudiate Gore's endorsement immediately, since SOA defense is a proported dealbreaker for candidate support. Since you aren't posting three threads a day on how Dean accepts endorsements from people who support the SAO, you clearly don't see this as a dealbreaker.

[Hoppin_Mad]

76. The SOA never distributed torture manuals in Costa Rica - READ THIS !

VERBATIM from the Pentagon ( material in parenthesis mine )

"USSOUTHCOM Mobile Training Teams distributed copies of the seven manuals listed at Tab G ( the torture and execution manuals ) in five Latin American Countries ( Columbia, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guatemala, and Peru. We found that as many as a thousand copies may have been distributed in the USSOUTHCOM area from 1987 to 1989 and at the USSOA ( School of the Americas ) from 1989 to 1991"

Do you SEE Costa Rica listed there ?

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/nsa/archive/news/dodmans.htm

[Bolo Boffin]

80. Please see post 79.

And please note, the manuals were distributed without knowledge of what was in them. When the questionable material was identified, the manuals were pulled and destroyed.

No wonder Clark (and Gore) supports such an honorable institution.

On edit: fixed the title for the correct post number.

[zulchzulu]

52. My betting money would be for Joe Kennedy n/t

[kerryistheanswer]

73. John Kerry tried to close the SOA

Does that mean anything to the Dean supporters on DU who've continually called him a right-wing hawk?

[Melinda]

77. Yes, it's another example of why Senator Kerry is my #2 choice.

But please don't confuse me with anyone that may have called Senator Kerry a "right-winger". I'm an adult, and I have no need to enagage in name calling . :)

[kerryistheanswer]

78. Sorry - didn't mean to generalize

Peace!