Former Vermont Medical Director...ENTHUSIASTIC about CLARK!

[in_cog_ni_to]

From the Clark blog. :bounce:

I served as medical director for Vermont Medicaid and Dept. of Corrections in the Dean administration for over six years. During that time, I had to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear with Dean's health policies. His off the cuff policy declarations dealing with Oxycontin infuriated the physicians of the State. I had to provide personal assurance that their patient's would not be harmed by Dean's poorly thought out policy pronouncements.
Another issue disturbing to physicians was his open declaration against methadone maintenance programs for substance abuse. Clearly, he demonstrated an ignorance for the state of the clinical science in combating this problem. Another "policy" declaration was his proud admission that he "was to the right of Atila the Hun" when it came to corrections. There were many more. His thoughtless declarations both public and private are too much for any sensible professional to bear.

When one tries to make a comparison to the General, there is no comparison. Any self respecting American; whether you were for the Viet Nam war or not; whether you actively served in the military or avoided the draft; should find Dean's trivialization of the agony of that era to be despicable. It is not negativism that drives my support for Gen. Clark, but his positive vision of the future. He embodies the Army slogan, "Be you all can be".

[bitchkitty]

1. Would you post a link please

- I wemt to the site and couldn't find it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

2. Here ya go.

http://joejacobsmd.forclark.com/story/2004/1/11/141419/926

[jpgpenn]

3. More of Dean's republican roots shining thru

Thanks for the post

[kayleybeth]

4. Thanks for posting this!

Glad to know this guy is on the General's side :-)

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. Anyone know what Dean's

position on Medical Marijuana is? I was flabbergasted to know he was against Methadone programs for addicts. That is just cruel. Let 'em suffer!

[hellhathnofury]

9. Dean is for an honest FDA evaluation of mary jane.

Check the other methadone thread to see why he opposed it.

[bitchkitty]

19. You don't know what you're talking about -

Methadone is a useless treatment. I was on methadone in the 70's and when I tried to go off of it, I was so addicted that I ended up in hospital. It was worse than a heroin addiction. My advice to any addict is to use morphine to kick or go cold turkey.

Almost every junkie I knew who was on the Methadone program went back to heroin. Methadone doesn't solve the problem, far from it. People used to hold the syrup in their mouth then spit it out and sell it on the street. And buy - guess what? Heroin!

If Dean doesn't like Methadone I say good for him! I don't like it either.

[KaraokeKarlton]

6. How about a name for this person?

If they served in such positions they have a public record I'd be interested in checking deeper. Can't do that without a name.

[Toucano]

8. It might be Joe Jacobs.

It looks like the handle is joejacobsmd. It's a start, maybe.

[Marian]

10. Joe Jacobs, M.D., who

served as medical director for Vermont Medicaid and Dept. of Corrections in the Dean administration for over six years.

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. Figured it out

And from what I'm learning, Jacobs and Dean disagreed on how to deal with drug addicts in Vermont. I agree with Dean on this one. I was married to an addict (alcoholic, but addiction is essentially the same regardless of what substance is involved) for a decade and I know full well that the longer people (or the government) enable addicts the longer it takes for them to hit bottom and ultimately get clean. The best thing you can do for an addict is let them hit bottom and be there for them when they genuinely want help. Feeding their addiction with prescriptions and methadone only prolongs the process and makes it take longer for them to really be ready to get clean. I used to live in one of Vermonts absolute WORST low income housing projects. Drug addiction ran rampant there and I lived right in the middle of it all and have friends who have been addicted to heroin and crack cocaine. If you don't live close to it, you don't see how it plays out. Heroin addicts that want to break away from that drug typically switch to crack to make weaning themselves off heroin easier. The withdrawl from crack isn't nearly as bad as the withdrawl from heroin. From crack, an addict will go to Oxycontin or any narcotic prescription drug they can get their hands on. Some of them will even get their kids put on Ritalin so they can take those, crush them and snort it. Kudos to Dean for recognizing the way Vermont's prescription drug benefits were being abused. When people do that, they put the programs at risk of being lost for all the kids insured. The government need not subsidize drug addiction. I'm all for paying for rehab, but no methadone or drugs without hospitalization to flush the person's system of drugs and keep them under medical care to make sure their system gets cleaned out.

[KaraokeKarlton]

25. Oh nevermind...found his name

And from what I'm learning through my search for info...he seems sore that Dean wanted to do something to stop the abuse of Oxycontin by welfare recipients. They discovered that almost 150 recipients were going from doctor to doctor to get prescriptions of Oxycontin. So Dean decided that something needed to be done to prevent the growing problem of Oxycontin abuse and made it harder for people to get General Assistance to pay for Oxycontin for abusers of the drug. Apparently this particular doctor believes the government should pay for the drug habits of addicts. Sorry, but I have to disagree with this guy. That's enabling and shouldn't be done. As long as an addict or alcoholic is enabled they can't hit bottom. They have to hit bottom to seek help and genuinely want it. Funny thing is this...I personally know one of those 150 welfare recipients who is addicted to Oxycontin. She used to be a good friend of mine until she stole from my daughter and mother. My child hurt her tailbone and was in horrible pain. She was given Tylenol with Codeine for the pain. My mother was taking tamoxifen for breast cancer. This woman STOLE both my daughter's pain killers and my mother's cancer medication because she wanted to get high. She'd go to doctors like the one on the Clark blog and claim she had a horrible toothache or migraines...anything she could think of to get a prescription. Finally, her regular doctor figured out she was an addict and tried to work with her to give her just enough to take the edge of while she was SUPPOSED to be going to NA meetings and counselling. She'd take her month's supply in one or two days and then go about stealing other people's medication. She actually got mad at me once when I wouldn't let her have my prescription cough medicine when I was horribly sick because it had codeine in it.

Yeah, drug addiction sucks and is unfortunate, but the government shouldn't be enabling addiction and making tax payers fund their fixes. :shrug:

[Bread and Circus]

43. Sounds like Dean employed some strong arm tactics...

I mean seriously, this seems very Draconian and right wing...
punish the poor because of a few abusers?

As a doctor I understrand how folks surf docs just to get drugs.
However, many people use pain medicine legitimately. Why would
Dean work toward limiting access to care overall because of some
abuse?

[KaraokeKarlton]

46. He didn't punish the poor

People who needed oxycontin could still get it. He just put safeguards in place to help track the people who were going from doctor to doctor conning their way into another prescription. Your screen name implies you're a doctor. If you are then you know full well that there are people out there who do this. The cost of the drug benefits for poor Vermonters was too high and there was a chance the program could be at risk if something wasn't done to curb the cost. This was one of the things Dean did to try to make sure the program stayed solvent. Another thing he did was take steps that limited the prescribing of name brand drugs when cheaper generics were available and just as effective. Unless there was a valid reason for prescribing the name brand drugs, it wasn't allowed and would not be reimbursed.

Personally, I'd rather see this be done than to see Vermont kids lose coverage. :shrug:

[jumptheshadow]

55. But did they seal their records?

Then you wouldn't be able to check them.

[tokenlib]

7. More questions about the Dean record..

Howard Dean says a lot of the right words, you can read the policy statements on his website and find barely a discouraging word, ---but some of his statements and actions as governor are suspect.

And for those of us that wonder about an elected Howard Dean turning toward centrist DLC behavior in office...this adds to our concerns.

Which Howard Dean would we end up with?

[Marian]

13. Dean has gotten a lot of credit

for tapping into voter anger and by using the internet.

However, for substance, look up his voting record in VT. He is NOT a liberal.

[tokenlib]

14. That was my point--that he is not liberal!

He is not exactly progressive either.

[in_cog_ni_to]

18. eenie meenie miney mo

catch a tiger by the toe....:eyes: After the nomination...should he somehow win it, he'll be the "right of Attila the Hun" Dean. This sure does add to my concerns.

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. I wonder if

that could be why he sealed his records in Vermont? Nah! Couldn't be!

[pocoloco]

11. Great Post! I've been sleeping better since September,

and I keep believing the cream is gonna rise to the top!!

[Cheswick2.0]

12. LOL

now there's and endorsement

[SahaleArm]

15. A real practicing doctor - Not someone who quit after 4 years n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

47. Who "quit after 4 years"? You can't be talking about Dean.

Because he practiced medicine right up until he took the oath of office for Governor on the day Snelling died. In Vermont, most politicians keep their previous job. Dean practiced throughout his previous 8 year political career and the years prior to getting involved in politics.

[OKNancy]

16. Interesting

I read that on the blog too. I figured the Vermonters here would be all over it....investigating the good doctor ( Joe Jacobs )

I fear for the Democratic party if Dean is nominated.

[Marian]

20. I fear for the American people if

Dean is nominated.

The crap we've seen thus far (the fliers, the tantrums etc) will be putty in Rove's greasy little hands.

[DancingBear]

21. We all do

save for the Dean folks.

40 states for Chimpy, folks, followed by:

I can't believe Bush won! <snif> Everyone I know voted for Dean! <snif>

Time to mail those postcards for Wes.

[BootinUp]

17. What about Deans history on corrections?

How come nobody talks about that. I haven't researched it, but keep hearing these references to heavy handed policies. anyone?

[DancingBear]

23. Was that this week's history

or tomorrow's history, or next Wednesday's history?

As with all of his positions, they tend to be somewhat "fluid." :)

[in_cog_ni_to]

24. I would like to know

that too. I'm curious.

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. I used to visit someone in prison in Vermont for almost 5 years

I can field this one. Vermont actually has some really great programs for prisoners. There are a few bad apples who work inside the prisons, but you're going to have that anywhere. As far as the programs, they are geared towards rehabilitation, and try very hard to give inmates the opportunity to prepare themselves for release so that they can stay out. There are many education, job training, substance abuse, and recreational activities available. Any problems that arise in the VT DOC is typically limited to something an individual guard, case worker or prison administrative staff (at one prison) did that they shouldn't have. If you have any specific questions, go ahead and ask. I know A LOT about this issue.

[mouse7]

22. "medical director for... Dept. of Corrections"

Yeah, we all know how the best of the best doctors take prison doctor jobs.

So what medical school was JoeJacobsMD last in the class of? Grenada Medical School? Martinique School of Medical Science?

[bitchkitty]

26. Only thing I could find were

these two links. If it's the same Dr. Jacobs, he got canned when some money went missing.

http://www.ralphmoss.com/dialog.html
http://www.ralphmoss.com/senators.html

[mouse7]

29. Now THAT'S where prison doctors come from... PRISON!

ROFLMAO!

[DancingBear]

27. ready, aim....

shoot the messenger!!!

[in_cog_ni_to]

31. Oh, bother.

Dean the angel o8). Yep, Jacobs is the guilty one, not Dean. I would make sure THAT IS the correct doctor before you start your slanderous rampages.

[kayleybeth]

34. It's the same doctor

but that was in 1993. He took the job in Vermont after all of that happened.

[mouse7]

37. He was in front of a US Senate Com. being asked about 3/4Mil

Yes... in this circumstance, Dean does look like an angel.

[kayleybeth]

42. Then why did Dean appoint him?

If he was a thief and all, why would Dean appoint him to such a lofty position in the Dean administration?

[kayleybeth]

30. Try Yale

http://millennium-debate.org/hgconf.htm

Dr. Joe Jacobs

Dr. Joe Jacobs MD, MBA received his Medical degree from Yale University and his MBA from the Wharton School of Business. He served as Director of the Office of Alternative Medicine, National Institutes of Health. He has authored and/or contributed to eight books including, Cancer: Principles and Practice of Oncology; Medical Futility and the Evaluation of Life Sustaining Interventions and Community Oriented Primary Care: From Principles to Practice.

[bitchkitty]

32. Office of Alernative Medicine -

then he is the same one. Hey, ask him what happened to the missing money?

[mouse7]

33. So Yale, then Prison.... he's still a thief

He stole big cash. His testimony is therefore....ummm... suspect.

[kayleybeth]

35. Why would Dean appoint a thief?

He became Vermont Medical Director AFTER the allegations. Is this an appointed position?

[bitchkitty]

36. Director of Medicaid -

isn't that Federal?

[kayleybeth]

39. It's a Federal program administered by states

Directors are probably chosen on a state level but I am just guessing. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

[mouse7]

41. He might have been sentenced to the position

It's real common to make doctors who break the law serve their sentences by working in public health settings.

This is just a wild guess, though.

I have to admit having a real hard time figuring out why a Yale doctor who specialized in alternative medicine would up as the prison and medicaid staff physician any other way.

[kayleybeth]

44. Do you have any evidence

that Dr. Jacobs broke the law? Please post it. Do you have any evidence that Dr. Jacobs was "sentenced" to serve in the Dean administration? Please post it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. Not sure on that one, but I'll see what I can find

It's unlikely that Dean appointed this guy. Vermont politics are pretty unique. We vote on just about everything, so I actually wouldn't be surprised if this was some kind of an elected position. If it were an appointment it would most certainly be someone beneath Dean who made the appointment.

It is pretty odd that he managed to get the job in light of his past. I wouldn't blame that on Dean, though. But obviously, someone didn't do much research before giving the guy the job or voting for him, or whatever. This kind of thing isn't unheard of, though. That's why some of those freaky "angel of mercy" killers manage to get hired at reputable hospitals sometimes. :shrug:

[retyred]

48. would dean appoint a thief?

It would depend, it says he was accused but nothing that says he was found guilty, silly me, an accusation appears to mean guilt by dean standards these days, however back when he was hiring thieves perhaps it meant welcome aboard.

Still it's interesting, being fired yet still hired by dean.



retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. Your accusation is completely

unfounded. NOWHERE in those reports does it say Jacobs stole that money! Where's the proof? I want a link that says he was convicted of stealing $750,000.

That's pathetic.
<snip>
TH: I hope you will exercise your authority as the head of this office, through letter or correspondence with Dr. Broder, head of NCI, to ask him to please submit to you what they¹ve done with this money....And I see no reason you can't...start pushing him a little bit, to get this process moving a little bit faster. You see, I'm faced with a problem here. I¹d like to put more money into the office.<snip>

Was he convicted? I want a link. Please.

[depakid]

50. Yet more Dean bashing under a deceptive heading

I wonder if you Clark supportes realize that all you are doing with posts like these are alienating people to your candidate.

[kayleybeth]

51. It started out as a positive thread about Gen. Clark

I did not bash Dean anywhere. Not at all. The Dean supporters decided to turn this into a "bash Dr. Jacobs" thread. He doesn't support Dean so he must be CRIMINAL. LOL!

[in_cog_ni_to]

52. What is "deceptive"

about the heading???? NOTHING! If it was deceptive the thread would have been locked. YOU just didn't like what you read. If you don't like the thread title, don't click on it! :eyes: I suppose you were planning on voting for Wes Clark, eh?

[depakid]

53. Alomst the entire snippet bashes Dean!

Including YOUR bold sentences. That's what's deceptive- I clicked on this thread hoping to read something positive (which is all TOO rare in this forum) and what did I get- yet another Clark supporter posting negative comments about Dean. It seems as if that's all some posters here seem to be able to do, which is not only a sad comment on your candidate, but also a major reason that you don't see a lot longtime DU'ers here.

[in_cog_ni_to]

54. Hello!

Read the title, would you? This is a "copy and paste" from the Clark blog. It is what Dr. JACOBS wrote, not me. I hope you're also complaining about the 5,789,098,098 Threads that bash Clark on this forum...not just the ones that show Dean in a bad light?

I'm a long time DUer. I'm still here.

[depakid]

56. Again-

if you're posting criticism, that's certainly your right, just don't couch it as being ENTHUSIASTIC for Clark when most of it's really anti-Dean. That the blog may have done so isn't an excuse, IMHO.

As to Clark bashing- personally, I've have never engaged in any attack on Clark- though I've objectively questioned some of his policies (as I have with Dean and the other candidates). Moreover, anyone with eyes can see that Clark bashing is comparatively infrequent here- probably on the order of one out of every ten that bash Dean- and a good deal of it is gratuitous, petty and can be found in almost any thread, no matter what the topic is. I would guess that's one of the reasons DU set up this forum in the first place-

Again, like I said, all these negative posts do is alienate people (as Joe Lieberman does) and they reflect poorly on your candidate. I would also add that your posts aren't among the usual suspects (which is why I read it). There's about 20 or so here who have lost all credibility; they'll pretty much say anything, and have become predictable to the point of being boring.

[in_cog_ni_to]

57. OK, I can see your point,

but we differ on what we took away from the post of Dr. Jacobs. :7 I saw it as a "an enthusiastic Clark supporter" who took the time to enlighten voters about Dean. You saw it as a bash Dean. I'll be more careful with my titles from now on, OK? :) I used the title from the blog, btw...it wasn't my title.