Clark & Gephardt defend the most regressive federal tax with lies.

[stickdog]

I'm watching the news and they come on with a blurb about the Dem primaries.

They talk about Dean's "self-inflicted gaffes" and how he's gotten himself into "another pickle" with his plan to lower FICA.

Then they cut to Clark & Gephardt arguing that giving lower and middle class wage earners a break on FICA will threaten Social Security.

:wtf: is up with that crap?

How can ANYONE support a candidate who is prepared to make a bs argument like that?

FICA runs a surplus that Bush has stolen to fund his neverending wars.

Any tax relief should have come in the form of stimulating FICA relief -- but instead Bush gave it all to the rich -- you know, the people who could already spend whatever they felt like spending BEFORE Bush's tax cuts.

So now we have Gephardt & Clark making the COMPLETELY DISINGENUOUS claim that lowering the most regressive of all federal taxes will threaten Social Security?

:wtf:

[Andy_Stephenson]

1. And we pay SS taxws out of our checks...

Talk about Dean's misstatements.

[dfong63]

2. Dean's right, again

[Renew Deal]

3. The problem is Dean isn't giving any specifics.

All he said is he will cut. You cannot find any detail coming from him or his website as to what an actual "plan" would be. I said yesterday that this was going to happen. Not because Dean is wrong in theory, but because he has left himself hanging.

[stickdog]

5. So, it's OK to lie by saying "cutting FICA will undermine Social Security"

when we all know that giving that kind of bullshit any credence is highly counterproductive at best?

[MIMStigator]

7. ask Dean if it's ok, he said it

"Here's the problem with the payroll tax holiday. It's a very attractive idea. The problem with it is, it's completely irresponsible. Who is going to play fill-in-the-gap with Medicare and Social Security? That's what the payroll tax pays for. If you take money out of that to give it as a tax increase, what's the difference between that and President Bush taking money out of Social Security in order to give tax increases, other than who it goes to?"

[democratreformed]

9. So that is Dean's quote in your post? n/t

[MIMStigator]

10. yeah

.

[ShimokitaJer]

16. Not this fucking thing again

We are not talking about a payroll tax holiday!!! When will you understand that?

[Lobo_13]

4. FICA is perfect for tax relief

because you can keep it revenue nuetral by raising the cap accordingly.

I don't think he's going to lose a whole lot of votes for raising the upper limit from 82,000.00 to 100,000.00

And like someone else pointed out, it's the most regressive tax on Americans. I pay more in FICA than income tax, and I mean ALOT more.

[MIMStigator]

6. Gephart and Clark AND DEAN said it

is Dean COMPLETELY DISINGENOUS TOO?

"Here's the problem with the payroll tax holiday. It's a very attractive idea. The problem with it is, it's completely irresponsible. Who is going to play fill-in-the-gap with Medicare and Social Security? That's what the payroll tax pays for. If you take money out of that to give it as a tax increase, what's the difference between that and President Bush taking money out of Social Security in order to give tax increases, other than who it goes to?"

[retyred]

11. dean said it too but

only Gephart and Clark are disingenuous?

Wow, that really is pathetic!


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[stickdog]

12. There are two distinctly different issues that you are confusing here.

1) Bush is ROBBING the FICA revenue/Social Security expenditures and STILL running record deficits. Dean wants to put an end to this fiscal negligence.

2) While Dean's plan certainly doesn't need to be revenue neutral (considering that right now, in practice, FICA is no more than a regressive income tax), given his previous statements on this, it probably will be.

[ShimokitaJer]

17. He's not confusing anything

He's deliberately misinterpreting the quote to spread disinformation. Just ignore him.

[cally]

8. It will undermine SS unless

other taxes are raised to make up for it. Plus, the deficit must decrease because that threatens SS.

[stickdog]

13. No.

Just get rid of the cut off and lower the rate.

But even if the relief was not revenue neutral, why defend the most regressive federal tax by far.

[cally]

15. I don't think Dean has that plan

Why defend it? Because it supports social security, disability, some unemployment. I agree that it's regressive and needs adjustment. I don't agree that Clark and Gephardt are somehow hateful for questioning your candidate's plan.

[Bread and Circus]

14. Lookie here...

"Here's the problem with the payroll tax holiday. It's a very attractive idea. The problem with it is, it's completely irresponsible. Who is going to play fill-in-the-gap with Medicare and Social Security? That's what the payroll tax pays for. If you take money out of that to give it as a tax increase, what's the difference between that and President Bush taking money out of Social Security in order to give tax increases, other than who it goes to?"

-- Howard Dean

[stickdog]

18. There are two distinctly different issues that you are confusing here.

1) Bush is ROBBING the FICA revenue/Social Security expenditures and STILL running record deficits. Dean wants to put an end to this fiscal negligence.

2) While Dean's plan certainly doesn't need to be revenue neutral (considering that right now, in practice, FICA is no more than a highly regressive income tax), given his previous statements on this, it probably will be.

[quaker bill]

19. Dean is right on this, of course

A payroll tax holiday is irresponsible. We have a very large deficit. On the other hand shifting to a more progressive tax policy, like funding the general fund expenditures from income tax only and using the pay roll tax surplus to pay down debt as a means to replenish the "trust fund" which is currently filled with IOU's would be sensible.

Once a plan is firmly in place to resolve the deficit, I would favor raising the floor on the payroll tax. In other words something like the first $10,000 in any year is tax free, (no income tax, no payroll tax) then adusting the ceiling on the payroll tax as necessary to make it revenue neutral. Little adjustment would be needed to income tax at $10,000 because we collect little there. But whatever is necessary to accomplish this I would be ok with. Minimum wage workers generally need help from government, they don't need to be paying taxes.

[TexasSissy]

20. Dean's lowering of FICA won't happen, anyway. He's talking of

doing it IN HIS SECOND TERM???? His numbers started going down after making that arrogant statement.

I saw him on TV say that that was something he was thinking of doing AFTER the budget was balanced. We all know that won't happen anytime soon, with the deficit being what it is now. And I personally think he only said that to counter the bad effect that his tax plan had on his popularity in the polls. I don't really think that's what he would do, anyway. He said himself a few years ago that SS was in such trouble that the retirement age should be raised to 68 or 70.

And, yes, if you watched the Medicare act debates on C-Span, you know that, contrary to a decrease in FICA, if a major plan in SS isn't made soon, FICA taxes will need to be significantly increased, or the plan will collapse. Social Sec. benefits are paid for one elderly person by THE NEXT GENERATION. Currently, almost 10, I think, younger people pay taxes for the benefits of ONE elderly person. The younger generation has fewer people than the older baby boom generation, so there will be fewer people to pay for the benefits of that elderly person. So that person's benefits will have to be paid by maybe only TWO WORKERS...so their FICA taxes will have to be significantly increased in order to do that.

So SS will have to be privatized, benefits lessened, the program done away with, or something. The numbers don't add up, and all the politicians know it. Including Dean.

[mmonk]

21. Since those working

pay for those in retirement receiving social security and medicare (along with matching from employers), how do you propose restructuring the system?

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

22. Don't touch Social Security

I don't trust Dean to mess with Social Security, just like I don't trust any of them really. The program works and it's solid for years. If President Dean can pass a Social Security cut/reform through a Republican Congress, you know it's not good for us.

Raise the capital gains tax, put a surtax on CEOs.

[stickdog]

23. Surely you can't be AGAINST getting rid of the cut off and lowering

the rate in a revenue neutral fashion?

Do you really like highly regressive taxation?