Sharpton said to Chris Matthews that Dean

[candy331]

came over and asked to speak with him after the debates on the race issue.

[AP]

1. About time. Remember after the 'I want to be the candidate for..

confederate flag wavers" thing, both Al and JRE told him what they thought? After that, Dean said it was Edwards whose explanation of what it meant finally moved Dean to think differently.

What about Al?

Maybe Dean finally wants to know what Al thinks about race.

Did Al say what they talked about?

[SayitAintSo]

2. Notice how Dean barged in on Lester Holt after the debate ... while

He was talking to Chris Matthews....ABOUT the Sharpton smackdown ... it was funny ... even though they were on TV, it was like they ( Lester and Tweety) got caught whispering about Dean's debacle - as Dean walked up - Dean then co-opted the air waves trying to do some damage control on the whole event.

[Red_Storm]

3. damage control to the fullest !

[Sean Reynolds]

4. No.

It was called the moderators wouldn't let Dean speak. When Sharpton first attacked him they went to Dean, but Sharpton CUT HIM OFF. Then after Sharpton's rant was over, they skipped over to Edwards, then over to Braun I believe. Soon after Dean finally was asked a question and in return went back to Sharpton's remarks. They gave Sharpton a chance to respond, he continued to attack Dean but they didn't give Dean a chance to reply to what he had said.

It's not damage control because it shouldn't be an issue. Vermont's population is only .5% African American, what should Dean have done? In fact HE DID have an Asian American in his cabinet while governor, do they not count as minorities?

Sharpton is losing to Dean in the black vote and this is HIM trying to paint Dean a racist.

[AP]

5. I really don't think Sharpton is losing the black vote to Dean and I

really don't think Sharpton is running to win the white or black or any vote.

Also, careful with your allegations. Nobody callled Dean a racist. That's not what this is about. It's about credibility.

[slinkerwink]

6. when Sharpton attacks Dean for having one of the whitest states,

then that's race-baiting in my opinion.

[AP]

11. Wasn't there an cabinet level equal opportunity commission or civil rights

commission?

Who got those jobs?

If they didn't have those jobs, why not?

[stickdog]

23. Let's see. Perhaps for the same reason they don't gun control laws?

Are you implying this is the only job minorities can do? Or is it only minorities who can do this job? Or do you think perhaps gay folks or even women might make good choices for these posts as well?

Come on. This is silly. Vermont is extremely white.

[John_H]

32. I think AP is implying that out of the thousands of minority people

In vermont, it seems odd that not one was deemed acceptable to serve in the cabinet of a 5 term Democratic Governor.

[mbali]

37. Yes, Vermont IS extremely white

and Dean has done little in his career - at least prior to running for president - to reach out beyond his limited range to people who are different than he is. Not a good quality in a president.

I don't say this as a criticism of him. This does not make Dean racist or bad or mean or hateful. But it does call into question whether he has the requisite background, experience and perspective to be an effective candidate and an effective president. I would say this about anyone who demonstrated such a limited scope. And I have no doubt that if the shoe were on the other foot - if, for example, Dean were an African American mayor of a 99% black city who had done little in his career that involved anyone of a different race, plenty of folks would strongly assert that perhaps this politician's limited background and experience and exposure rendered him not ready for prime time.

[ant]

58. is this true?

Dean has done little in his career - at least prior to running for president - to reach out beyond his limited range to people who are different than he is.

Do you know this for a fact or is it a conclusion you're reaching based on the fact that there were no minorities in any one of these 6 particular positions?

Do we know what the make up of his administration was?

[bearfartinthewoods]

74. i think i remember he specificly asked for a black roomie at yale

seems like he might have done something similar while governor.

let's not be niave....administrators often ask for minority people to fill vacant positions. it's called outreach or affirmative action.

[Clark4VotingRights]

72. That's nicely said mbali

And while I don't fault Dean for living in a state that's
white as all the snow they have there, I do credit Clark
for working in one of 'Merka's most successfully integrated
institutions for 34 years. It's significant.

[Clark Can WIN]

12. Or maybe he was just pointing out Deans hypocrisy when it comes

to race issues and diversity. Or do you maintain that there was not one minority person in 12 years and 5 terms in the entire state worthy or qualified?

[Sean Reynolds]

16. How is it hypocrisy?

Just because he happens to come from a pretty white state? Remember, George Bush has TWO African Americans in his cabinet, are you willing to say that he's more in touch with race issues than Dean? The fact is Vermont only has a .5% African American population. THAT isn't Dean's doing, that's just how the cards fall. I'd like to see how many African Americans actually hold elective office in the whole state, I bet it's low.

Sharpton has NO right in attacking Dean on this issue because he has NO understanding of Dean as a person. If Dean were a racist he'd not be a huge pusher of hate crimes legeslation. Remember, Dean's got a record of standing up FOR minorities. Granted they may not all be minority in the sense of color, but they are in the sense of being different.

[oasis]

56. Rod Paige, Sec. of Education is also AA. Margaret Cho and Mineta

are also in Bush's cabinet. I'm pretty sure he has a least one hispanic male.

Anyway, they're sure to be featured in Rove's ad about Chimpy's compassionate conservatism during the general election.

[Printer70]

61. Margaret Cho ??

I hope you're not being stereotypical here and this was an honest accident. Her name is Elaine Chao.

[Bucky]

67. LOL. This is only a humorous slip. But now that we mention Cho...

She'd be a great cabinet secretary! I'll switch my vote to whatever candidate pledges to put Margaret Cho in the Executive branch

[Clark Can WIN]

70. I guess you are choosing not to answer the question.............

do you maintain that there was not one minority person in 12 years and 5 terms in the entire state worthy or qualified?

[mbali]

14. Sharpton did NOT attack Dean for "having a white state"

It's bad enough that Dean supporters are twisting themselves into pretzels trying to justify Dean's hypocrisy, but the mischaracterization of Sharpton's questions goes beyond the pale.

[Sean Reynolds]

22. But it's an issue when your state is 'a white state'.

Tell me that doesn't make it harder in finding qualified African Americans to fill a cabinet position? Remember, there are only SIX cabinet positions. Only 3,000 African Americans live in Vermont. In fact, how many African Americans have been elected to office in Vermont? How many past governors have had African Americans in their cabinet?

It's hard to place an African American ON your cabinet if there aren't any that qualify for the position.

[angee_is_mad]

19. Is that a lie?

Another Dean supporter in another thread was just saying that to explain why Dean didn't have in minorities in his cabinet.

You people can't have it both ways.

[Sean Reynolds]

24. Please explain what you think is a lie.

I can't answer the question unless you provide a quote.

[KaraokeKarlton]

35. angee I live in Vermont and it's true that we have very, very few blacks

in the state. It's not because they aren't welcome, because they are. The issue is that essentially all of the state is very rural, and it's not really appealing to blacks or other racial minorities. Dean can't control that. In fact, in my town the only time I ever see blacks is from spring to fall when a whole bunch of Jamaicans stay in some apartments at a hotel down the road from here when they come up on work permits every year. We fly their flag and welcome them with open arms. I made friends with them and even took as many of the women (and one man) in my car to take shopping and out dancing at a nearby club. (Jamaican's are POWER shoppers! Even the men! lol)

This wasn't a slight or a snub, there just wasn't anyone Dean knew of that he could appoint who was black or hispanic who were interested in any positions. If there had of been, Dean would have appointed them, I'm sure.

[Clark Can WIN]

68. "I'm the only candidate talking to white people about race"

you would think if Dean were GENUINELY concerned about diversity he might have found at least ONE minority individual to fill a cabinet post SOMETIME in 5 TERMS AND 12 YEARS ..............

Physician heal thyself.

[Sean Reynolds]

9. You don't have to out and out call someone a racist.

But when you question their 'race' agenda, I suspect you're doing more than just questioning it. And yes I do believe Dean's taken a lot of the black support - just check the southern polls.

Sharpton wants to paint Dean as a racist, whether he says it or not.

[ClarkGraham2004]

10. I agree. I don't understand Sharpton's agenda.

What the hell is he trying to accomplish?

[hellhathnofury]

71. He's trying to get attention for himself.

[mbali]

17. So, when Dean criticizes other candidates for not being as progressive

on race as he is, he is painting them as racists?

Hmmm.

[Sean Reynolds]

27. He did it once and said he was sorry for it.

It was that damn question where he said he was the only candidate to talk about race to white people. He's since retracted that comment.

But it's MY opinion that Dean can't do anything right. If he talks about race he's pandering. But if he doesn't, he's a racist.

[AP]

36. Maybe when Dean said he was only person to talk to white people about

race bluntly, he meant that he only talks to white people.

[mbali]

38. ha ha

[Sean Reynolds]

44. Well it's good to know you can only talk about race

If you come from a state that is full of race. I guess I can't talk about it, because I come from a pretty white state.

Oops.

[mbali]

49. Why is it so hard for Dean supporters to understand the difference

between TALKING with other people about race and LECTURING other people about race as if one is an expert.

There's nothing wrong with talking about race - that's a good thing. But Dean does more than talk about race. He lectures everyone else, claims to be superior to all of the other candidates on the issue, behaves as if he is more progressive than most other white politicians about it. However, given his lack of experience on the issue, his approach comes off as arrogant posturing. And now, in light of his poor hiring record as governor, his attitude smacks of hypocrisy.

[Eloriel]

48. You missed it then

Ireally don't think Sharpton is running to win the white or black or any vote.


Sharpton told Matthews all ABOUT his plans to pick up delegates (which, you may remember, requires VOTES). In fact, I was surprised because this was the first time I've heard Sharpton not give the spin that he expects to get the nomination and that's why he's in the race. Tonight there was no talk of that -- it was about delegates (which some of us have known all along).

Eloriel

[bitchkitty]

65. No it isn't.

You know goddamned good and well that there are practically no African Americans in Vermont. This is not about credibility. It's about a hatchet job and it makes me sick.

[mbali]

79. If there are "practically no African Americans in Vermont" and as a result

Dean doesn't have any experience in dealing with black people or engaging in affirmative action, perhaps he's not the best person to carry the banner of a diverse party into the general election or to lead a discussion on race in America.

If I need to hire someone to teach math and coach football at the local high school, I'm not going to hire a guy who knows arithmetic but has never held a football or coached anyone in his life. Not a slam on the guy or his ability to teach math, but if he has absolutely no experience at doing a significant part of the job description, he just isn't qualified for the position.

[Red_Storm]

7. Sharpton's not trying to paint Dean as a racist..........

he exposed Dean as a hypocrite.......as Sharpton said, Dean has been talking alot about race in his campaign and yet he never hired a black or latino to work in his cabinet all the years he has been Governor of Vermont.....it's about HYPOCRISY not racism......and your boy was exposed...Dean looked very foolish trying to answer the question.........

[Sean Reynolds]

13. Why is Dean a hypocrite?

Because he comes from a state that's only .5% black? Don't give me that BS that Dean purposely didn't pick African Americans or Hispanics in cabinet posts.

In fact, how many African Americans are in the Vermont State Senate? I'd like to know HOW many African Americans hold office in the state of Vermont.

[JohnKleeb]

15. I agree what Sharpton did was wrong Sean

I do NOT think Dean is a racist, but not just blacks, minorities in general. On AA's in Vermont, good question.

[Sean Reynolds]

18. Well I don't know what to think.

But it seems Sharpton really likes to go after Dean. He's doin' it for a reason, but I wonder what it exactly is.

[stickdog]

26. What has Dean said about race that makes him a hypocrite?

Is is BAD that he TALKS about it?

If so, why?

[ClarkGraham2004]

8. Don't you think being from Vermont should be the issue?

I mean, this guy is running for president. Being from such an out of touch state should be looked at, dont you think?

[candy331]

21. Not everybody wants to leave private employment to be in

the public sector so could we not entertain the possibility that there may not have been a minority member who wanted to be in the cabinet?In such a small state it is not like there were 1,000's of minorities to choose from. Maybe that is a question that could be asked of Vermonters themselves.

[depakid]

25. An out of touch state?

Please. Vermont is one of- if not THE most progressive state in the Union, especially now that Oregon has been targeted and corrupted by out of state money. If being able to cover almost all of the children in one's state with health insurance and providing seniors with a meaningful drug benefit- while balancing the budget and leaving a rainy day fund is out of touch, then it might be a good idea for other states to get out of touch, too....

[stickdog]

28. Sure, that's a legitimate issue. But's that's not the way Sharpton

approached it. Not by a long shot.

[pasadenaboy]

31. Let's be fair now

Your candidate is from Arkansas. The state someone is from is irrelevant.

[Eloriel]

50. Out of touch state?

Isn't that going a little far?

Does a state have to have a huge minority population to "be in touch"? Is Mississippi "in touch"? Texas? Louisiana?

Out of touch state indeed.

Eloriel

[RogueTrooper]

77. No

We happen to believe all American are equal. Whether they come from Vermont or not.

[mikewriter]

20. I would've liked to have heard

That conversation between Dean and Sharpton behind closed doors. Sharpton's attack was just to bring some more controversy toward's Dean. Sharpton has no chance, Dean does. But I liked how Mosely Braun went after Sharpton. She made a good point.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

29. Dean will get zero sleep tonight

Seems the problem here is that Mr. People Powered has been talking for months now how he's got the whole race/religion/socio-economic thing figured out and has been going out on a limb and saying outlandish things to back up his serious and deep thinking on the matter.
Sounds great.
Problem is he had no good answer/rebuttal to Sharpton tonight, and as stated in the debate thread, he looked like a mouse caught in the headlights.

IOW he's a charlatan.

[Eloriel]

53. The probelm is

He didn't get a chance to respond, with Sharpton interrupting and hogging the spotlight. You have literally no idea if he had a good response or not.

What is more true is that he didn't have a good way to butt back in, and the moderators didn't exactly approach that whole exchange with any even-handedness.

Eloriel

[NewYorkerfromMass]

54. Right. And he reads the Bible yet doesn't know NT from OT

again, his credibility is redoubtable.

[John_H]

30. Sharpton may have played the race card but the problem is yet

not racism. Howard Dean is no racist. The problem is political. The problem is, as always for Howard Dean, it's that he's the worng candidate in America, 2004.

This is yet another reason he'll provide chimp with a country-ruining mandate.

We're actually considering running someone who has a worse minority appointment record than a republican? Yeah, yeah, Vermont has 34 African-Americans or whatever the Dean spin is.

Did you see the way the ho's made a big deal out of it tonight. Just wait till Chimp pulls the Colin and Condi card. We can't change the media or political reality no matter how fervently we believe.

I'd wager my life Howard Dean doesn't have a racist bone in his body. But this is yet another warning-drip of the hemmorage of votes we'll see if he gets the nomination.

[Tatiana]

33. EXCELLENT point!

This is more a political problem than one of Howard Dean being racist. I don't think he's a racist either. At the same time, I don't believe he understands the complexity or nuance of the American race issue, simply because he has never been confronted with it.

[mbali]

39. He doesn't understand it, but to make it worse, he doesn't know that he

doesn't understand it. In fact, he thinks that he's an expert on the topic.

Scary.

[Tatiana]

40. Look at his environment, though.

It hasn't exactly been a picture of diversity.

Is that his fault? Of course not. But one important point Sharpton raised was that Dean may talk all he wants about race, but he hasn't put his money where his mouth is.

What would Dean's Presidential cabinet look like?

All white?

[Eloriel]

55. It would probably look a lot like his campaign staff

Andi Pringle, who used to be CMB's Campaign Manager is Dean's Deputy Campaign Mgr. I met her -- she's sharp, and very cool. He has Hispanics on his staff (forgive me for not remembering the details -- I wouldn't have remembered Andi had I not met her, probably), and Dean is the first, and only, campaign to have chosen a Native American as a paid staffer, in Oklahoma (which is pretty gutsy because in OK, Native Americans are discriminated against more than blacks).

Dean also, appropriately IMO, talked about his multi-ethnic endorsements. Obviously, none of THEM found him lacking when they endorsed him, Sharpton's snide (ugly, really) but very, very "sounbyte quality" snipe on that subject notwithstanding.

Eloriel

[Printer70]

63. America doesn't stand with Sharpton on the race issue

If anything, most Americans see Sharpton as a racial demagogue. Any enmity between Dean and Sharpton will benefit Dean in the general- they want to see someone stand up to that race-baiting. Sharpton is extremely unpopular in mainstream America. Who is ever nominated will get 90% of the black vote- no matter what.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

34. Yep. And worse still he had no good answer to Sharpton

and he criticised Al Gore for not being quick on his feet?

[Red_Storm]

Dean looked quite pathetic.......

trying to respond to Rev Sharpton's legitimate question.....

[ant]

42. so it's a numbers game?

Do you honestly think minorities are sitting around thinking, "well, Bush has X blacks and hispanics, and Dean has Y blacks and hispanics, and X > Y so therefore Bush is my candidate!"?

Minorities are not so simple minded that Bush mentioning Colin and Condi will automatically, instantaneously blind them to everything else the admin has done. This is not about which candidate has the most blacks and browns to parade on stage to impress us.

Besides, given the Lott fiasco, and given that Powell might be leaving the admin AND disagress with the White House on affirmative action issues AND was treated badly over the Iraq thing (last I heard blacks oppose the war at a higher rate than whites), I don't think the Republicans are going to want to focus on this too much.

[Tatiana]

47. No. Of course it's not a numbers game.

Unless that number is "0."

Then, it looks pretty bad.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

52. Ding ding ding

That answer sums up the whole thing. And as said elsehwere, Dean has a legitimate political problem here.

[ant]

57. depends on how you judge

It only looks bad if you're concerned with appearances rather than substance. I have absolutely no problem at all with the fact that Dean had no minorities in these 6 cabinet positions. It is such a meaningless factoid that it amazes me it's caused such a furor here.

By the way, has anyone seen the document Sharpton was referring to during the debate? I've been trying to find it online but can't.

[Printer70]

62. NO- the more Shartpon hates Dean, the more America will love him

The heartland hates Sharpton. He is extremely unpopular in the midwest and south. Dean's already got the NE and West locked up. It's strange to say, but if Sharpton is in cahoots with Dean, THEN he's got a problem in the general.

[Bake]

41. It was a fair question. Period.

I don't think Howard Dean is a racist. I don't think Hoard Dean is a racist. I don't think Howard Dean is a racist.

But he sure as heck tried to duck Sharpton's question, and now his supporters here are doing ridiculous gymnastics trying to justify the fact that Dean had no senior-level minorities in his administration in Vermont. They're doing far more gymnastics, apparently, than Howard himself is doing. Accusing Sharpton of playing the "race card." That's the typical white-man defense when someone challenges the racial status quo. Maybe the "race card" NEEDS to get played over and over until it's not an issue anymore!

And don't tell me there were NO QUALIFIED MINORITY candidates, because that is just bullshit.

Policy is important, of course, and Howard has a decent record on policy. But participation and perception are important too. It comes off looking like the benevolent white man making good policy for the minority constituents without letting them participate.

And for the record, I'm a white man.

Bake

[mbali]

43. Bam!

You said it!

[adadem]

46. Totally with you

on this one. Excellent response. Dean tried to mislead with his answer and I'm thrilled Sharpton kept pressing for the truth. I don't think Dean is a racist but I also don't think that race issues are high on his priority list.

[sandnsea]

59. There are racial problems in Vermont

Racial disparity in prison populations went from being near normal in 1980, 1% of population minority and 1% in prison, to 3% of population minority and 8% in prison in 2000. Incarceration rates went from 342 per 100,000 in 1980 to 1306 in 2000. It doubled during Howard's years. Not the worst state for sure, but the problems exist in Vermont too.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/special_reports/prisons/rankings2.html

[mbali]

64. Interesting

Blacks are better represented in Vermont's prisons than in Dean's cabinet.

I wonder if any Dean supporters will step up and insist that maybe the blacks in Vermont's prisons really don't deserve to be there.

[stopbush]

69. You know, it really isn't a fair question for Sharpton to ask unless

he's going to direct the same question at ALL of the other candidates. Maybe someone on DU can give us a rundown of the percentage of minorities holding senior-level staff positions for Kerry, Lieberman, Edwards and the rest, both on their Congressional and their campaign staffs. Or, maybe we can just ask how many of the white Dem candidates have employed a black as their campaign manager. After all, there are seven of them (hey, that's one more than the 6 cabinet positions Dean had to fill!). I don't know, but now that Sharpton's opened Pandora's Box, I'd like to know.

It's also not a fair question in the sense that one can frame a question negatively by ignoring all sense of context. Sharpton questions why Dean had never appointed a black to one of six cabinet positions he had in his government. As others pointed out, Vermont's black population accounts for about 1/2% of the state's citizenry. If you want to go down the racial quota route, that means that Vermont's blacks should hold (statistically speaking) .0083 of the positions available in the Vermont cabinet. Dean did try to point out that he had minorities working on his staff in Vermont, but Al immediate talked over him and narrowed the "acceptable" minority appointments to the cabinet. Well, geez, if you're going to that, Al, why not limit it to the Lt Gov position?

So, it really comes down to if there were any qualified non-white candidates available who Dean passed over, totally ignored or vehemently opposed purely on racial grounds. I didn't hear Sharpton providing any background that that had been the case. All I heard was innuendo that somehow Dean did something "wrong" by not appointing a black to a cabinet position.

I lived in NYC for a long time and have always found Sharpton to be both engaging and informative, but I thought tonight's attack on Dean was a bit of a cheap shot. Again, had he asked that same question of the other candidates, fine. But he was obviously trying to score points off Dean simply because Dean is the current front runner.

[Marian]

75. 12 years, 5 terms

no African-American cabinet members.

More African-Americans in prison.

Dr. Dean was a broker before becoming a doctor before becoming a governor.

Of course he's entitled to be president - just ask him.

Right.

[mbali]

80. Edwards walks the talk . . .

Edwards' senior campaign staff includes a National Campaign Co-Chair, National Treasurer, Deputy Campaign Manager, several State Directors and three Regional Directors who are African American, and an Hispanic Political Director and Deputy Press Secretary.

Edwards has shown the same commitment to equal opportunity on his Senate staff. Not only is he the first U.S. Senator in history to appoint a black female Chief of Staff, his Chief Counsel, Scheduler, two District Directors, and other staff members are African American, as well.

I think we can all agree that Edwards more than measures up in this regard.

[nancyharris]

45. It doesn’t mean that Governor Dean is a racist

It just means that “diversity of viewpoints”, which is the cornerstone of Affirmative Action just isn’t important to him. He will have a hard time fighting to strengthen Affirmative Action programs when he doesn’t seem to practice it himself.

[Lobo_13]

51. Some folks just ain't happy

unless they are being oppressed by someone, anyone.

[Hat_Trick]

60. Why can't this just be simply more politics?

I don't believe Sharpton feels Dean is racist. I think Sharpton is just making sure his niche as the speaker for black america and thusly black votes at the caucuses is assured. As long as he is the moral arbiter of racial politics anyone who wants the organized black vote must come to him for it. Whenever the final dickering is done to choose a candidate you can be sure Sharpton will step forward and get his piece of the political deal that is going to be made for those votes. There is a struggle going on within the Democratic party for its leadership. I think all the in-fighting is just reflecting that reality.

[killbotfactory]

66. "I'm married to a minority you stupid f***!"

Is what I'd say if I were Dean...

but I'm no politician.

[Dookus]

73. I'm pretty sure...

Sharpton's constituency is not the poor, oppressed jewish doctors of America.

[Marian]

78. From one Clark supporter to another:

in all due respect, that was low.

To be a Jew is to be a minority.

To be a doctor is to be upper class.

You are adding the one to the other to make your argument.

Please don't stir this one up!

[CWebster]

76. It is atrocious

that the usual suspects are using this to lynch Dean. His appointments were dominated by women, and upon noticing the discrepency, suggested some men should be considered, to which the response was there were not any "qualified". The argument could be made that he didn't have enough white men represented in his appointees.

The desperation in attempts to smear Dean by candidates and their supporters for whatever reason, credible or not, is not convincing me that any of your candidates are worth my consideration. So get your jollies while you can, as Kerry surely demonstrates, it is a losing game.

[billbuckhead]

81. Can't we find better candidate than the governor of a 96% white state

of 600,000 that's far more like a rural county than real state that has been endoresed by the NRA 8 times. Why is anyone surprised that he made those Confederate flag gaffes.