Was it smart of Clark to skip the debates 3x in a row?

[Hawkeye-X]

I don't think so. Here is why:

It shows several reasons here which I will outline.

1) Clark has been spending all of his time in NH which he should have debated in Iowa. It doesn't fly with me that Clark is skipping to be "above the fray". Even Lieberman who is skipping Iowa participated in the debates. It just proves that he is nothing but an empty suit.

2) With the caucus coming in a week from Monday, I will predict a Dean win, Kerry a 2nd finish, Edwards a surprise 3rd finish, with Gephardt a disappointing 4th. Soon after NH, Gephardt will drop out. Bringing the big mo is Dean and Kerry and Kerry can pilfer many of Clarks numbers while Dean maintains another victory in NH. Prediction: 1) Dean 2) Kerry 3) Clark 4) Edwards.Onwards to South Carolina, Dean will probably eke out an upset victory over Edwards, while Clark finishes out 4th behind Sharpton again. Dean picks up the majority of the 7 states (5 of 7) with Clark likely picking up one state (OK). Deans wins AZ, NM, ND, SC and OH (I think).

3) Newly discovered evidence that Clark is in a serious trouble, uncovering the "whitewash" in his dealings with the Stephens Group.

Trust me. It was a mistake not to face the debates and be truthful. Clark is "not above the fray", so dispose with that meme.

Hawkeye-X

[John_H]

1. LOL! If Clark has any more his recent serious trouble,

he ought to pass Dean in, oh, about three weeks. I agree that he should have done one of the IA debates, though.

[Hawkeye-X]

2. Unlikely.

Clark won't be able to muster a friggin' dent in Dean's momentum because of Clarks errors.

[ClarkGraham2004]

7. Why has Clark been on the rise, then?

Both nationally and in NH.

[QC]

27. {chirp...chirp...chirp} n/t

[Brian_Expat]

29. Others' failing candidacies. n/t

[janx]

48. He's 11 points behind Dean in NH right now.

n/t

[helleborient]

50. Excuse me....that's 17 behind according to ARG's daily tracking poll.

Dean 36, Clark 19

[Feanorcurufinwe]

67. Apparently the less people see of Clark, the better he does.

If he just hides out in an 'undisclosed location' he'll be a shoo-in!

[helleborient]

71. LOL...when I watched the Linn County, Iowa event on Saturday on CSPAN

I wished there were more events like it...4 of the candidates (Kerry, Dean, Kucinich, and Edwards) were there and given time to give their basic speeches, without debate questioning.

It was outstanding and proved what a strong group we have.

[IA_Seth]

74. Linn County Banquet

Yeah, I was there actually...front row table about 15 feet from the podium. I was actually on TV looking like a dork a few times, too bad I didn't realize the camera was on me.

I was very suprised at how charismatic this group of people can be. I am a Clark supporter, but even with the differences amongst the candidates platforms you can really see why each has their following. I was very impressed!

Thanks
Seth

[CivilRightsNow]

95. I think that he should nominate Cheney as his vice president..

Then he can be truly bipartisan. They can hang out in Dick's lair and play electronic battleship.

It would be groovy and oh so nuevo-american.

[mikewriter]

3. Not a smart move

Although the debates don't mean too much in my book, staying fresh in the public's mind is key. After the debate, Clark will only be mentioned for not being there that's it. I don't think that's too good.

[onehandle]

4. Clark 4th behind Sharpton in SC? Unlikely.

The closing numbers I see put Clark taking OK, likely AZ, and possibly SC. Second or third in NH. I'm not familiar with specifics on the other states you named to make a prediction.

[Hawkeye-X]

8. The southern concept

Will be taken by Edwards while Clark's touting of his Southern ideal won't wash with most of the voters as they discover more and more of his insidious past.

[onehandle]

16. Insidious?

Oh I get it...Clark=Bush.

Thanks for clearing that up. While I was discussing Primary possibilities, you just wanted an opportunity to point out that Clark was Evil.

Got it. Thanks!

[QC]

18. Yes, it will destroy him in the South when people find out

that he voted Republican fifteen years ago. :eyes:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

84. Insider trading, enron, halliburton, racist clubs - oh wait that's Dean!

the honest above-board candidate.

[in_cog_ni_to]

5. DUPE>>>3X over.......n/t

[BurtWorm]

33. I wonder if you agree that the Dean lacks diversity threads

multiplying tonight are dupes many, many times over.

[ClarkGraham2004]

6. Yes, watch his numbers rise.

All the candidates look bad in these debates (except Edwards, who is just awesome).

[BurtWorm]

32. It's true that Clark doesn't look too good in these debates.

He's better in controlled interview situations, where he can put his media analyst/pundit skills into use. It probably was a good idea for him to extract himself from situations he does poorly in.

[bearfartinthewoods]

37. i can't agree

the last two interviews i watched moved me to write to clark and point
out that there is a fine line between staying on message and being evasive.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

86. Sorry - but we all agreed that Clark won the last 2 debates that he was in

n/t

[BurtWorm]

93. We "all" agreed? It was unanimous?

Wow! A DU P04 first! Complete unanimity! (I don't recall agreeing to those.)

[kovasb]

9. Attending is a no-win situation

I would have liked to see more of him, but i think the calculation was the the debates were so lame that its not worth it.

Summary of this 'debate' on race issues: 1) We need to have a dialog on race 2) We need to look after every american's economic interest.

Same stale stuff i've been hearing since i was 12. Its sad that even the most liberal candidates couldnt muster a substative proposal.

I think Clark's calculcation is that the debates are either Dean Makes Mistake or Dean Makes No Mistake, and generally its not a bad idea to disassociate himself from the fray. Its a no-win situation to go to these things at this point.

Lets recall when clark first entered the race - he couldnt get any kind of message out in the first few debates, and it Really hurt him. So i dont think he is fired up about the format, and judging from recent polls, it hasnt hurt him yet...

[ClarkGraham2004]

11. I know. A debate on race + Sharpton? NO THANKS

Plus he isnt even campaigning there. He gets to be in NH all day while the other candidates are in Iowa.

[helleborient]

51. He doesn't show up when Sharpton isn't there either...

Nice try but it's about Wesley Clark avoiding debates and avoiding part of the country...not about Al Sharpton.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

87. Iowa is a black hole when it comes to time and money - look for more

candidates to start doing this in future elections. It was a good move for Clark to concentrate on New Hampshire. You can see it by his numbers. He was getting GREAT media coverage in New Hamp for a week.

[depakid]

10. It's risky

While he may appear to be above the fray and make some modest gains by not engaging in petty attacks, he risks losing some support to Edwards, in particular, who's just gotten the Des Moines Register endorsement. If Clark were my first choice, I'd be concerned about Edwards or even Kerry gaining strength and staying in the race longer than anticipated.

Another risk is that, as you say, there are several issues that are brewing off the radar now that have the potential to snowball if not defused. While these debates are pretty lame (and few people other than political junkies ever watch them) they do provide an opportunity to air out issues- making them old news, and they provide rhetorical practice in dealing with controversies and answering questions extemporaneously in a public format, something that honest Clark supporters will have to admit the General could use a lot more of.

[ClarkGraham2004]

15. Yeah, the sweater story is getting out of control. <nm>

[depakid]

19. Thinking more about the Stephens Group & SOA

The comments on SOA that I heard on CSPAN were disturbing, to say the least. There's more than a few bad apples involved & Harvard Business School it ain't. I like Clark well enough- as Dean supporters do, but those comments made me think twice and I'm sure that come tomorrow I'll be hearing about them from several of my progressive friends who have been a lot more suspicious than I have.

As to sweaters, please, don't insult my intelligence.

[FrenchieCat]

28. The SOA story was disturbing....why?

Clark was assigned to the Southern Command by Clinton in 1996. He changed the curriculum at that school to include Human Rights courses. He left shortly thereafter when he was promoted to a 4 star general, again, by Clinton.

He was awarded 3 of his 4 stars while under a Clinton Presidency. Why is Clark being Blamed for the entire history and graduates of the SOA?????

I think people are stretching........The guy was a General...not Goldilocks!

Plus he can win...duh.

[helleborient]

65. Clark has never advocated closing it down and supports it, that's why

Liberal activists have been protesting to close it down for many many years...providing services to protesters is even a significant part of the economy in Columbus, Georgia.

Clark will convince me he has a chance at winning when he takes the lead significantly somwewhere among Democrats.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

88. Is Dean going to close down the Maidstone? The racist club he spoke at

just a year ago. The club his family still belongs to?

[TLM]

12. Yes... the best thing he can do is not speak...

Every time he tries to pretend to be a democrat, he fucks up.


Now all his supporters can focus on attacking other candidates, without having to worry about Clark's showing.

[VolcanoJen]

13. It wasn't smart, but it wasn't a fatal series of errors, either.

The reality is that very, very few people actually watch these debates. The next day, the debates make the morning news in a round-up fashion, and most viewers find out how the debate went by listening to the pundits spin it. The only way that the electorate at large would really find out Clark skipped the debates is if the press made a big deal about it... so far, nobody's nibbling.

I'm surprised the political media hasn't made a bigger deal about it, actually. It's the perfect way to frame Clark as some kind of chicken who can't hold his own in a debate, and instead chooses to hide. The only people who seem to be claiming this are DUers, and that makes sense... we're avid political junkies, and we do care about these debates, and find them meaningful.

I have a feeling that skipping the debates didn't hurt Clark one bit, and if it did, it did so only in the minds of his detractors. After the whirlwind of primaries in the next few weeks, and as the field thins and the debates become more topical, and not centered around or located in Iowa, of course Clark will be in the thick of it.

I skipped this debate myself, and missed the last one televised one too (I did catch some of the radio debate). Honestly, even I'm burned out on them, and I'm definitely a primaries junkie. I just want people to start voting and I want to get this thing narrowed down to a handful of candidates. Then I'll be happy to turn the debates on again. :-)

Just my nickle on Clark's absence,
Jennifer

[kerry-is-my-prez]

89. The headlines for the debates: Dem candidiate "snipe' at each other

saw anyone that said that the candidates were all "crabby."

[sleipnir]

14. These Debates are ridiculous

Any one who skips them gets points from me. They're just tools of the Neo-Cons to divide and conquer. Props for Clark for not taking part.

[indigo32]

17. The way I see it

being in the debates would get him more free press. Something he shouldn't be passing up. But what do I know :shrug:

[Hoppin_Mad]

20. He's running a Arnold-like campaign - but without the groping ! -eom

[slinkerwink]

21. precisely!

that comparison's never been so clear before until now!

[depakid]

22. I think that's a mischaracterization

maybe that could have been said several months ago, but lately he's gone public with several substantive proposals, including one aimed at increasing the progressivity of the income tax. He's also added meat to a number of his position papers- something which Arnold never did (because even if he could have, it would have doomed his campaign).

[slinkerwink]

23. but Clark's refusal to face his Dem opponents in debates does

bring up the Arnold comparison.

[depakid]

24. I'd agree except that he's not running in Iowa

and the only reason Lieberman and Sharpton are at the debates at all is to get whatever jibes they can and stay in the press as long as possible before they inevitably fold up their tents. Clark doesn't need to do that at this point, although as I posted above, I think he's taking something of a risk in not attending. Whether it turns out to be a well calculated one, only time will tell.

[returnable]

40. his "refusal to face his Dem opponents"

You'd have something if the debates actually occured in a state where he was competing.

And the Arnold analogy is further weakened by the fact Clark has never tried to dictate the terms/format of a debate, as Arnold did. And Clark has actually faced his Dem opponents in a number of debates already.

Clark is not competing in Iowa, therefore he has chosen not to debate in Iowa. BFD.

Tell me, what did you think of Dean's no-show at the DC debate?

Can we compare your candidate to Arnold now? :eyes:

[helleborient]

49. So, why is it ok to skip part of the country when campaiging for Pres?

Basically I see it as Wesley Clark saying it doesn't matter...it's fine if he wants to be a serious candidate but leave part of the country out.

A nation should have a national president.

[QC]

56. Then, I take it, you disagree with the "write off the South" talking point

that is so popular here?

Same idea, really, though it seems that the same people who love the idea of "writing off" big chunks of the electorate are suddenly outraged when Clark skips a debate in a state where he is not campaigning.

[helleborient]

59. I've written at length praising Dean for putting the whole country in play

That's why Dean is leading in polls in every state that has a primary.

Where outside of the South is Wesley Clark close to leading in a poll???

The last Ohio poll I saw had Dean leading Clark 29-17 and Dean is leading Clark 36-19 in New Hampshire.

Where is Clark's national strength?

[QC]

63. I'm glad you agree that "writing off" parts of the country is a bad idea.

It's a very popular one here, and a terrible mistake.

[helleborient]

66. I completely agree...and commend Dean and Edwards for making it to

My part of the country - Illinois.

[returnable]

73. What, no props to Clark?

Cuz he's been to Illinois a couple of times, too :hi:

[helleborient]

76. Excuse me, congrats Gen. Clark

[returnable]

Cool

:toast:

[kerry-is-my-prez]

92. Clark's rising in every state, Dean is losing ground

n/t

[returnable]

57. "part of the country"?

Which part would that be?

He's skipping the Iowa caucauses. Whoopee.

[helleborient]

60. And he's not credibly close to leading anywhere outside of the South...

And his campaign trail for the most part seems to indicate he doesn't care.

Down 29-17 in Ohio
Down 36-19 in New Hampshire

In polls that have come out recently.

[returnable]

64. What, the south doesn't matter?

:shrug:

"And his campaign trail for the most part seems to indicate he doesn't care."

What campaign trail is that? That one that has him planted in NH right now?

I suppose Dean doesn't care about the rest of the country cuz he's focusing his energy on Iowa right now, right? :eyes:

It's called campaign strategy.

[helleborient]

69. Iowa was a narrow swing state in the last election...it matters...except

To Wesley Clark.

[returnable]

72. If he ignores Iowa in the general election...

...then you'd have something.

This is about securing the party's nomination.

[helleborient]

79. Iowans value the caucus...

I do believe some Iowa votes would be at risk if we nominate someone who skipped the caucuses.

And losing even a few votes in Iowa could lose the state.

[returnable]

83. Perhaps...

...but, then again, maybe not.

But you're right, should Clark win the nomination, he'll have to work Iowa hard. In fact, as a swing state, it's gonna get a fair amount of attention in the GE regardless of who the nominee is.

It was a calculated risk to skip Iowa. The latest tracking polls in NH suggest Clark made the right decision. But we won't know for sure until after the race is decided.

[FrenchieCat]

30. Did arnold win?

[BootinUp]

91. That what hurt! LMAO

[Mattforclark]

25. LMFAO - "Trust me."

Yeah! Because you are obviously one of those people who has the Clark campaigns best interests in mind, so we should obviously pay great attention to your suggestions.

[Brian_Expat]

26. One way to evaluate this situation. . .

. . . is to ask yourself "If I had Clark's record on lobbying and endorsing Republicans, would I show up at a debate?" Then things get a lot clearer a lot faster. :)

[A-Schwarzenegger]

31. I do not think that General is not nothing but an empty suit.

[Hoppin_Mad]

34. You both have that 'super hero' thing going for you ;-) -eom-

[jsw_81]

35. Bad move by Clark

Even if he's ignoring Iowa, he should definitely take part in the debates so he can get national exposure on television and reach out to undecided voters. It's not that I want him to win, but I simply can't believe he would miss so much free advertising.

[Hawkeye-X]

36. big fat kick

from somewhere that's languishing on page *mumble*

[helleborient]

38. In the past, skipping debates was credibly called Republican strategy....

I guess Wesley Clark has robbed us all of the credibility to attack Bush when he attempts to skip debates.

[returnable]

41. And where was your man...

...for the DC debate?

Dean can skip debates and it's OK, but not other candidates.

Gotcha. Love the double standard :hi:

[helleborient]

42. Dean has been at ALL debates where most of the candidates show up...

Only 3 showed up in DC

Wesley Clark was the only candidate to skip the debate yesterday.

And the only candidate to skip all 3 debates so far this year.

It is not an adequate comparison.

[returnable]

44. Oh, I see...

...so a debate is only a legitimate part of the democratic process if certain candidates show up.

Gotcha. Still love the double standard :hi:

[helleborient]

47. It's legit if over half show up...just like it's not legit if candidates..

Are left out...

No double standard just your attempt at gotcha for a debate that had only 1/3 of the candidates present.

[returnable]

54. Gotcha

As you said last week:

"I seriously question how honorable it is to ditch parts of the process."

The DC debate was part of the process. I guess you must question's Dean honor as well, eh? Or maybe he was just afraid of that much face time with Kucinich and Sharpton.

You're either preaching a double standard, or you don't believe in your own rhetoric.

[helleborient]

61. Dean' isn't skipping the DC primary...and he'll probably win it. (n/t)

[returnable]

68. Even more reason that he should've attended that debate.

But, like I said, I guess he was just afraid of Sharpton, Kucinich and CMB cuz he obviously didn't want to face them.

[mmonk]

39. Yes

he has been making strides (especially in NH) by campaigning directly to the people and appearing on nationally syndicated shows talking his positions.

[helleborient]

43. Clark seems to think the US = New Hampshire + the South (n/t)

[mmonk]

45. as a part of a whole

[returnable]

46. Gee, then what was he doing up...

...in Superior, WI, on Saturday? :shrug:

[helleborient]

53. Woo Hoo! Excellent...at least northern Wisconsin is on his radar!

Looks like a wimpy candidate to me...stay as far away from the other candidates, or having to respond impromptu on national media, as possible

[returnable]

58. Double standard. Again

"...at least northern Wisconsin is on his radar!"

First, you whine that Clark isn't running a national campaign. Last week, you even lied about Clark ignoring the midwest.

And now when faced with evidence to the contrary, you mock the merits of his campaign stops.

A real national candidate goes to places like Superior's South Shore. But I guess reaching out to folks in the hinterland is "wimpy" in your eyes. Thanks for clearing that up.

"stay as far away from the other candidates, or having to respond impromptu on national media, as possible."

Yeah, when he skipped the debate last week, he ended up on "Meet the Press" and "Hardball" instead. Is that the "national media" he's been avoiding? :eyes:

[helleborient]

62. Just like your double standard belittling rolling eyes...

I guess I should say "gotcha" as well...

Welcome to the stooping just as low...

[returnable]

70. Yeah, my rolling eyes...

...are the real issue here. Gotcha.

[helleborient]

80. No, the vile nastiness here that causes me to stoop too is really

The issue most of the time I'm here.

Campaigning on the ground is ten times as much fun as this and rewarding in terms of seeing what people in the real world are like.

[returnable]

85. "the vile nastiness here"

I hear ya.

I try to stay out of it. Really, I do :)

But I take exception when folks question my candidate's honor, call him "chicken-shit" (as someone did in a similar thread last week), and misrepresent his campaign itinerary.

My time is much better spent writing letters on his behalf. I shall go do that now :toast:

[SEAburb]

52. I bet Dean wishes he skipped last nights debate

He got an ass kicking.

[helleborient]

55. He stood up like a real national candidate should...

Instead of following the Bush strategy of avoiding debates.

[Jack_Dawson]

75. It Appears to have been Smart...

If going up 10 points in a week is considered "Positive"

:eyes:

[helleborient]

81. Why do Clark supporters insist he has gone up 10 pts.? Where?

Show us the poll....

He's up 7 points in the ARG poll in New Hampshire, with a 2 point drop over the weekend, and no increase like that anywhere else that I'm aware of...

[Jack_Dawson]

94. My bad - Clark only went up 8 points in a week

Up from 12 to 20 in CNN Poll.

[BootinUp]

77. No serious person with experience in politics has

questioned Clarks explanation for skipping Iowa. It has to do with time and money to compete in the caucus system there. End of message.

[KoKo]

78. Hey, why didn't you post this on my "Clark's Clever Strategy" Post here a

little while ago? :D

[Capn Sunshine]

82. I think it's a good strategy

I've seen this guy when he's going it alone without scripted questions.

Deer in the headlights.

The more practice he gets off camera ( and he needs that ) the better he will do later. So skipping debates he is far from ready for seems advisable at this point.

No one is any the wiser. BRILLIANT!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

90. If this is all Clark has to worry about - it's pretty good for Clark.

n/t