How many homosexuals did Clark knowingly appoint to key positions

[KaraokeKarlton]

when he was NATO Commander? Clark claims to care about gay rights, but I don't know of a single instance in Clarks record where he proved his support for homosexuals.

Clark supporters?

[mikewriter]

1. Clark is a homo-phob

Dean is the real gay man's man.

[KittyWampus]

2. Dean Said He's A Metrosexual

Clark's definately the manly man.

[bhunt70]

3. Dean is no one's metrosexual

please tell me he didn't say that in all seriousness.

He doesn't even live near a metropolitan city of note.

[KittyWampus]

7. He Said It In Passing As A Joke

:) don't even know if he knew all what it meant.

[Frederic Bastiat]

83. Montreal?

Metrosexual central anyone.

[mikewriter]

6. I just don't trust Clark

Or any other military candidate. It's not about the gay issue but I think Clark is shady especially with his past voting preference

[bhunt70]

9. many democrats voted for reagan...

probably some you know.

[mikewriter]

88. This is true

[kovasb]

46. So im sure u can understand

How others just can 'trust' african americans in high-level corporate positions or homosexuals as boy scout leaders. Cause we know their 'type' and where they come from.

[w13rd0]

54. Not at ALL comparable...

...political party isn't genetic, or hell, maybe it is. Maybe oneday we'll be able to fix all those errant genes. One's choices in whom they support politically is an expression of their philosophies and beliefs, that or they are voting for the cute guy in the sweater. How you draw this conclusion from the post you are replying to is some fascinating "logic".

[dogman]

84. It is genetic.

He's Democratic by DNA. His father was a Democrat in Chicago. One of the few things he has from his father, is his pass from the Democratic Convention in Chicago.

[KittyWampus]

4. The Military Has Its Own Policy Which Clinton (Congress?) Dictated

so if he KNEW they were gay, as in they said so, they would have been processed out.

He would have had no choice.

That's why he wants to change the policy to don't ask don't misbehave.

He thinks the Armed Services shouldn't be behind the curve in integrating gays.

[JVS]

16. And yet Clark tolerated this policy? What a sell out!

[KittyWampus]

66. Edit

[dogman]

85. When he is CIC he will change it.

Actually he speaks eloquently about gays and the fact they should have equal rights. But don't let your prejudice stop you from thinking in those terms.

[ClarkGraham2004]

5. In the military you CAN'T appoint gay people

You have to release them, actually. It's part of don't ask, don't tell. Clark's said he disagrees with it.

[KaraokeKarlton]

18. Well if he didn't stand up for gay rights back then

and do something about it then he doesn't really care about gay rights and has no business talking about the issue. It doesn't matter that there aren't openly gay people in the military. It was STILL his responsibility to make sure he found at least one gay person to fill a spot. If he didn't he can never hope to get the gay vote if he's nominated.

[Bolo Boffin]

32. He's got THIS gay vote. n/t

[ronnykmarshall]

77. This one too.

[Brian_Expat]

34. Depends on how important gay rights are to you.

If you're willing to vote for someone who was part of a system of discrimination and did nothing publicly to fight for it, that suggests that anti-gay discrimination is not your biggest priority.

Of course, then attacking another candidate on diversity issues from that vantage point is rather ridiculous.

[jumptheshadow]

69. Wait just a minute

Gay rights has been one of the major priorities of my adult life.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=65952

However, the future of the world as we know it and the humanitarian crisis we are now facing are my top priorities, as they would be for any decent, intelligent person.

What matters to me is that Wesley Clark is the best person for the Democratic nomination right now, in terms of issues, electability and experience.

Clark saved tens of thousands of people from murder, violence and rape while he commanded NATO during the war in Kosovo. He lobbied to save more people in Rwanda. The fact that we had a decent, competent man who understood the greater humanitarian issues in a high military position more than compensates for the fact that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was not his top priority.

I expect that, when he is President, his credentials as a General will give him more credibility when he addresses the very real issues of discrimination in the military. Certainly he will be able to do more for gays and lesbians than Bill Clinton did, or Howard Dean would, based on their weak military credentials.

[ClarkGraham2004]

35. You apparently don't understand how the military works

and I have heard Clark talk about gay issues very eloquently on many occasions.

[KaraokeKarlton]

40. What an outrage! Clark has no business talking about gay rights!

He didn't appoint a single gay person to any important positions anywhere in his record! How DARE he speak about gay rights!

[ClarkGraham2004]

82. Vermont is like the military?

LOL

[Brian_Expat]

49. Sure, during the campaign.

He's a recent converts to gay rights. When it was a problem in the military, though, he kept very quiet, only testifying once for Kerry in the early 1990s. If he'd kept equally as quiet about anti-black discrimination, would that be OK?

[KittyWampus]

68. blip

[pocoloco]

8. LOL

He didn't ask and they didn't tell!!

[Bolo Boffin]

10. Ha! Hahahahahaha!

Heheheheeeeheheheheheee.

OMG.

Whew. Man, you should take that act on the road. There's no telling how many homosexuals Clark has promoted - you've heard of Don't Ask, Don't Tell, haven't you?

http://clark04.com/issues/glbt/

Ensure that everyone can serve. I believe that the military needs to rethink the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. It does not serve this country to discriminate against people who want to serve in our armed forces. I would ask the military to craft and implement a policy that ensures that everyone who wants to serve their country is permitted to do so with honor and dignity. I would ask the military to look seriously at the British policy, which prohibits sexual misconduct by both heterosexuals and homosexuals. I would then submit the new policy to Congress to replace the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law.

That Sharpton charge really got under your skin, didn't it? "How can we turn this against Clark? There's gotta be a way...Hey, how many African Americans did Clark promote? Oh, wait, lots of African Americans in the armed forces. Hey, I've got it! Gays!"

Chuckle, chuckle...

[Brian_Expat]

14. As a homosexual myself

I can say you've missed the point. Sharpton's statement was demogoguery, plain and simple. Its utility to other campaigns quickly falls apart when the same standards are applied to them vis-a-vis gays (or Jews).

But don't let the double-standard end, it's useful to Dean bashing!

[Bolo Boffin]

28. As a homosexual myself

I think YOU'VE missed the point.

Obviously Dean suffered a bit of humilation today, and KK here finally found a way to turn it around onto Clark.

But it was lame. Lame, lame, lame. And I'm not afraid to say so. Lame. One of the goofiest bashes on Clark yet.

[Brian_Expat]

33. Considering the Clark folk are making hay with this. . .

. . . I think it's more than legitimate to apply the same standards to Clark. I am sorry you disagree. Two sets of standards are awfully convenient, aren't they?

[Bolo Boffin]

52. Hehhehehe...

Sharpton got in a zinger or two, but I don't doubt Dean's record because of it.

I speak for myself, personally, of course. This line of attack is just goofy.

[KaraokeKarlton]

44. What's good for Dean is good for Clark

As long as I see a single Clark supporter crying about the lack of minorities in Vermont I'm going to be talking about this. And from the behavior I've witnessed from some of your fellow Clark supporters, I can only say this...

You better get used to hearing about this.

[Bolo Boffin]

48. Keep using attacks like this on Clark...

...and his Democratic candidacy for the Presidency will be assured.

LOL! Tell us another one!

[Brian_Expat]

50. Sure bro. Double standards aren't going to help you win. :-) n/t

[jumptheshadow]

76. The pragmatic issues underlying this

Clinton tried to end the discrimination in the military as one of the first acts during his administration. He was unsuccessful, took abuse for it, and did little for gays and lesbians during the rest of his term.

Dean won't be able to do bubkus for us. He lacks the credibility to pull it off, while Clark has it in spades. Dean, ever aware that he is known as the "civil unions" governor, also will try to move away from being painted as too pro-gay. You can almost count on it.

There's much more hope for effective measures on gay and lesbian rights in the military from Clark than from Dean.

[Brian_Expat]

11. _THANK_ you

This divisive crap being planted by certain campaigns about quotas is utter crap and will backfire on them.

Clark has never, ever appointed a gay man in his career, nor are any of his top people gay. Does that mean he's a homophobe? :eyes:

Sharpton has no gay or Jewish people in any of his organizations OR in his campaign.

You could walk through every campaign and play this game if you wanted to.

[tishaLA]

27. I haven't read a single post that said anything about "quotas"

in the Dean campaign.

[VolcanoJen]

12. Kinda tricky to do so under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell."

You're holding Clark up to an impossible standard here, aren't you? How could an Army officer knowingly appoint an openly gay soldier or officer to any position of import?

Clark didn't invent "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and he shouldn't be held accountable for it, either.

[Renew Deal]

15. He did say he never turned anyone in and

has been a leader in the civil rights area.

Check the second ad down.

http://clark04.com/ads/

[Brian_Expat]

20. Not good enough

Anyone who supported this policy, without speaking out even once, is no good on gay issues.

[Renew Deal]

29. Actually Clark has spoken out against it.

"Ensure that everyone can serve. I believe that the military needs to rethink the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. It does not serve this country to discriminate against people who want to serve in our armed forces. I would ask the military to craft and implement a policy that ensures that everyone who wants to serve their country is permitted to do so with honor and dignity. I would ask the military to look seriously at the British policy, which prohibits sexual misconduct by both heterosexuals and homosexuals. I would then submit the new policy to Congress to replace the current "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" law."

http://clark04.com/issues/glbt/

He has also spoken out against it in debates, speeches, town-halls.

Is he good enough now?

[KaraokeKarlton]

45. No, just talking about it doesn't count anymore

He has to have actually promoted gays in the military. If he didn't he has no right to talk about the issue and clearly no understanding of gay issues.

[KaraokeKarlton]

23. Not any more impossible

Than Dean managing to find a minority to appoint to a cabinet position in a state with virtually no minorities. But I digress...

Clark is still wrong because if he really cared about gay rights he would have found a way to promote gays in the military. He didn't walk the walk so he can't talk the talk. He clearly doesn't care at all about gay rights. He can never, ever speak about the issue again because he's clearly a hypocrite!

[VolcanoJen]

41. Actually, it *is* more impossible.

If Clark would have appointed an openly gay solider or officer to any kind of position, he would have ended his career immediately, and the soldier/officer would have been put through absolute hell before their own separation from the Army. It's just the way it works. It doesn't make it okay, of course, but the Army isn't a state or a corporation. They have their own laws, bylaws, law enforcement and prisons.

Dean, on the other hand, could have appointed anyone he damn well pleased, and nobody could have layed a hand on him or his position. It's good to be the chief executive!

It's also important to bring up here that now that Clark has a chance to be a chief executive and change things from the top down, he's going for it. Is that not in the least bit admirable? Most retired generals would prefer to spend their mornings doing consulting work and their afternoons golfing, not running for public office, let alone the presidency!

I think I understand the point you're trying to make here, but do try to remember that Clark has never accused Dean of being a racist, or of not using his influence and power to help people of color. Maybe his supporters have made that accusation, but Clark certainly hasn't.

ON EDIT: spelling, and a little clarity...

[KaraokeKarlton]

51. You're right about the point I'm making

and it IS the Clark supporters who I started this thread for. The hypocrisy is getting a tad bit old and there is no better way to point it out than in this way. I don't like Clark for a number of reasons, but this isn't one of them. I'm simply making a point and I thank you for allowing me to do so.

[VolcanoJen]

53. Your point is very well taken, Karlton, and it's valid.

I'd love to see the Clark/Dean wars stop, too.

:-(

Luckily, the primary season is pretty short from here on out!!

:-)

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. I'd like to see it stop as well

and Thank God the primaries are so close and will go so fast that hopefully all the nastiness will be over soon.

It's such a shame to see how much of a cess pool DU has become. :(

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ronnykmarshall]

78. Thank YOU!

[KaraokeKarlton]

87. If my threads were inappropriate or against the rules

they would have been locked and I would receive a warning. Neither have happened.

I must add, in_go_ni_to that I have seen many, many threads started by you that go after Dean. I might suggest that if you can't handle the heat you ought to consider removing yourself from the kitchen, so to speak. Oh, and those guilty of hypocrisy really don't have a leg to stand on when accusing anyone else of being hypocritical.

:shrug:

[meow mix]

89. glad you cleared that up, you dont really care about gays rights

i thought you might have actually been interested in gay rights.
but now i see your just using it as a smear tactic.

how very progressive of you, and your ilk.

[Cheswick2.0]

80. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[Pax Argent]

42. With all due respects

what I am taking from what KaraokeKarlton is saying is that sometimes the opportunities for obtaining assistance from certain demographic sectors might be a bit difficult due to circumstances.

Gays in the military can't come right out and admit it, so we'll never know if Mr. Clark has a problem promoting them. Personally I don't believe he would, but I sure don't know. Conversely (and I am borrowing numbers from another thread) there is approximately a 3% minority population base without excluding children and the elderly in Vermont. If Dean were to create a cabinet that proportionally represented the population of his state, he would have to make sure that there were 33 members so that he could make sure that there was room for one non-white minority. It would have to be even larger if you wanted to ensure that all non-white minorities were represented.

What I would like to ask is, of all minorities represented in Vermont, were women in his cabinet? Gays? Older folks? I don't know the answer to these questions, but I find it interesting.

Attacking Dean on the demographic population of his state is disingenuous. Dean talks about race, but it is from the position that the majority must find common cause with their minority counterparts in pushing back what America is becoming. In this I agree with him.

[KaraokeKarlton]

55. Thank You...

And my point was clearly not lost on you. ;)

[John_H]

13. How many red herrings can Dean folks use to justify Deans weakness?

As you probably knew when you posted, Clark was working under Military rules set by congress and the Civilian Leadership--First, zero tolerance then don't ask/dont tell.

Statistics would indicate that Clark promoted many gay and lesbian soldiers. Did Clark knowingly promote a gay or lesbian soldiers? Maybe. But in most instances I would guess he had no way of knowing.

Maybe you could defend dean by saying he suffered from snow blindness, and therefore couldn;t tell whether or not any of his cabinet members were among the thousands of extremely capable African American citizens of vermont.

[Brian_Expat]

17. Why is it OK for other candidates but not Dean?

That's the core question. Is Clark somehow absolved from the same standards Dean is held to? How many top paid Clark campaign operatives are out gay people?

[Renew Deal]

19. Call and ask.

Or you can even email. Let me know what they say. Thanks :)

http://www3.clark04.com/forms/contact.mhtml

[Brian_Expat]

22. I'm asking people in this forum who have hopped on this bandwagon.

Why is it OK for you to attack other candidates (regardless of who your candidate is) on diversity issues, yet ignore them yourself when inconvenient.

[Renew Deal]

31. I didn't attack

go look.

Now I am not as interested in this as you. You can make a call and find out. Are you afraid of the truth?

[cally]

72. I'll ask you the same question

Why is it OK fo you to attack other candidates on various issues, and then ignore them yourself when incovenient? These pointless threads started when one candidate has some negative press stories, so supporters go after the other candidate are insane.

I will give the benefit of the doubt in case this is a legitimate question. Clark testified in support of Kerry's bill when he was still a general. At the time, it was seen as very courageous for a General to say that the issue of banning gays and lesbians from the military needs to be reconsidered. Also, I've read that Clark knows of fellow officers, men he knew for years, who are gay and has discussed the problems with them. I don't remember if he said he knew they were gay while they still served. He has said these conversations influenced his stance on allowing gays and lesbians to openly serve in the military.

I think I heard him say this at a speech in SF but I'll check around in the next few days and see if he also said this in print. I'll start a new thread if I find them.

[Rowdyboy]

25. I'll bet Clark promoted THOUSANDS of gay soldiers

many of whom were women and minorities.

How many minorities did Dean have in his cabinet?

[Brian_Expat]

30. I wouldn't put money on that bet. n/t

[SahaleArm]

62. Of course you wouldn't - Dean had a zero minority hiring percentage n/t

[KaraokeKarlton]

64. Aren't Asians minorities too?

Of his 6 cabinet members, one was Asian.

Since when did blacks and hispanics become the only racial minorities?

Tell more blacks and hispanics to move to Vermont and then maybe there will enough here to find one who wants a cabinet position or who wants to run for office.

[w13rd0]

39. It's Rule #17 on the NEW DU...

..."You are either with Dean, or you are against him." Certain tactics are perfectly acceptable if used against Dean, but don't you dare say that candidate3 has to disclose his speaking fees. You can call Dean a bigot, but prepare to get flamed if you point out candidate19 history of being exceptionally DIVISIVE on racial issues. You can like someone and praise their statements, but the minute they express a pro- or anti- Dean statement, it's approprirate to either love and quote them, or hate and deride them. Oh, and don't bother coming here to find out the latest news, or what outrages the Bush administration was responsible for today, because that's all pushed off the pages by bullshit attack threads (by supporters of ALL the candidates, I'm not holding anyone blameless).

Oh, I'm sorry, I'll stop my whining. I sound like Lieberman. Sucks when you hit the same URL for months and find yourself at lucianne.com one day...

OH, and how "noble" is it for the figurehead to stay "above the fray" while the "troops" go out to "prey and play"? Hell, that sounds alot like the Bush approach to politics.

[John_H]

74. You doth counterprotest too much. Pointing out red herring attacks

ain't the same as pointing out yet another reason Dean is unelectable. Howard Dean is no racist, but he does have a worse appointment record than the Chimp. For whatever reason that's a political problem.

So KK thinks to herself or himself, "hmmmmm, uh....wait! Clark couldn't even ask people if they were gay! Therefore he couldn't promote any. Wait, he might have. I have to use the word knowingly in my post...."

But making up faulty, even wacky, comparisons for Dean's weaknesses--unelectability, poor minority record, etc, in Rule #2 in the Dean Activist's Handbook.

[retyred]

24. And just how would dean go about

getting snow blindness....you'd have to go out in the snow like in sk....oh I get it!


retyred in fla
“Good-Night Paul, Wherever You Are”
So I read this book

[KaraokeKarlton]

38. About 3000 actually

And that includes children, college students and the elderly African Americans. So, that leaves somewhere between 1500 and 1700 African Americans to tap into. How many of those have a college degree? Let's say 1/3 of them, although it's probably lower than that, but I feel generous tonight. So about 500 or so have a college education. How many hold a degree and have experience in an area that would meet the job requirements of any given cabinet position. Probably around 50 of said African American Vermonters have the level of experience needed to do the job. With that kind of experience, those folks are going to already have very good, stable jobs. How many of them would be willing to leave that job to serve as a cabinet member for maybe only 2 years? And what's the likelyhood of Dean even knowing these individuals personally?

Yeah, I'm sure there was a long line of blacks just chomping at the bit to get one of those cabinet positions.

:eyes:

[Lefta Dissenter]

21. Clark testified along with Kerry

when they were trying to overturn DontAskDontTell.

That, along with the fact that he made a point of not asking so he wouldn't be in the position of having to fire someone in order to comply with the law...

(by the way, who do you think you're kidding, asking the question as though you don't know that if he KNEW someone was gay, he'd have to fire him. Silly)

[Brian_Expat]

26. Her point remains valid. . .

. . . and that is the dangers of demogoguery to other campaigns. Way too many campaigns seem to forget that diversity INCLUDES gay people, and we're not chopped liver. To pretend that it's OK to discriminate only when it comes to us, and then claim to be superior on diversity is ridiculous.

[Clark4VotingRights]

36. And what's hilarious about this bogus comparison

Is that if a military person admitted they were gay,
and were appointed to anything by anyone, their career
would be over. So, perhaps it's hard to get an accurate
count.

Whereas African Americans can readily be identified.

Also, there's such a thing as Affirmative Action for
African Americans (though it should be improved).
Whereas that doesn't exist for gays.

Pretty lame KaraokeKarlton.
But I understand. Your candidate got attacked.
That's not fun.

[wtmusic]

37. Clark's position is worse than the current DOD policy

Clark wants to replace "Don't ask, don't tell" with "Don't ask, but don't misbehave". WTF?


Thanks, Dad (Ward, Wally and the Beav are at it again!!) :eyes:

[Renew Deal]

43. What's wrong with it?

Specifically

[tameszu]

47. No it's not--it would integrate gays, b/c it applies to all orientations

equally.

This is what they use in the British military--and many other NATO militaries--which has fully integrated gay people into its ranks.

And it is much better than "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The idea is that you can be openly gay or straight, be married or have a civil union, and the military doesn't care, so long as what you do isn't disruptive to your duties (e.g. hitting on or harrassing other soldiers, which is probably more a problem for hetro soldiers).

[wtmusic]

56. It's the implication that gays can't keep it in their pants

There is a code of conduct between heterosexuals as well, and no one labels it, 'don't misbehave'.

[lazarus]

58. actually

The "don't misbehave" is targetted at the heterosexuals who will likely be unable to cope with knowing they're in the presence of a homosexual. Just can't make it blatant.

[tameszu]

60. No, this code of conduct is EXPLICITLY meant to apply to BOTH

heterosexuals and homosexuals. That's EXACTLY why it's better than "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Because it embraces that gays are equal.

[sleipnir]

59. It's not a bad question, but it will never get honestly answered

[KaraokeKarlton]

61. probably not

but I'm really sick of the hypocrisy so I had to ask.

[Bread and Circus]

63. You're reaching....

:eyes:

[KaraokeKarlton]

65. No, I'm making a valid point

that there is an awful lot of hypocrisy on DU.

[Forkboy]

73. no she's not

[jumptheshadow]

67. Where were Dean supporters?

When other Dean supporters belittled gay relationships?

Nowhere. That's where.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=65952

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

70. This has to be

one of the top 10 most asinine posts I've yet to see here on DU.

Play on children...let the adults know when you are tired enough for your blankies & nap mats.

:puffpiece:

[lib 4 all]

71. Clark believes in "don't ask, don't tell"

[ronnykmarshall]

79. You just joined today

and already you're posting flame bait.


hmmmmmmmm?

[Dookus]

90. No, he doesn't.

But let a good fact get in the way of your opinion.

[Jerseycoa]

91. Clark does NOT believe in "don't ask, don't tell"

If you have proof to the contrary, post it.

[Tim_in_HK]

81. that's easy!

10,325.

I thought everyone knew this.

[Clark Can WIN]

86. ALL of them. All Clark appointees are

black homosexual female amputees. :crazy:

[TexasSissy]

92. People couldn't admit to being gay in the military; it meant discharge.

Not Clark's rules. The U.S. government's rules.

It's risky and unpopular for a career military man to say that gays should be allowed to be in the military, even if they openly say they are gay (he's opposed to the "don't ask, don't tell" rule). If a military man takes such a position, I'd bank on it being sincere. He knows all the vets out there might not like it.