Sharpton's hit on Dean tonight

[Yupster]

Will it have any lasting effect, or any effect at all?

The attack I'm referring to was challenging Dean for never nominating an African-American or Hispanic for a cabinet position during his 12 years as governor of Vermont.

[IronLionZion]

1. How many minorities are in Vermont?

It's like one of the whitest states! The whole state is much smaller than the city of Rochester, NY

[NewJerseyDem]

4. I believe it is 96% white

And only .5% black. You wouldn't expect a state like that to have many black Cabinet members especially when Dean said that the cabinet has something like 6 members. I thought that Sharpton's attack was pretty unfair.

[maggrwaggr]

6. took the words right out of my mouth.

And Dean didn't have a solution for fire-ants, killer bees, or earthquakes either! OH MY GOD

[trogdor]

10. Nor boll weevils.

n/c

[Yupster]

7. I looked at census data

2001 estimates

Vermont population = 612,000

African-American = .5 % or about 3,000

Hispanic = .9 % or about 6,000

White non-Hispanic = 96.2 % or about 580,000

[qanda]

2. Sometimes the truth hurts!

eom

[dobak]

3. I can see this getting brought up by Bush in the GE

Think about it...

Bush has:

Condi
Powell
Chavez
etc...

Dean had none?


This will be used against us if it is Dean vs. Bush

[LuminousX]

5. And Clark's political advisor... oh, that's right

[LoZoccolo]

8. Nah...non-racists are smarter than racists.

Like, they might actually take into account the extremely low minority population in Vermont (like you're not doing). The other ones wouldn't care.

[dobak]

11. Are you saying that I am racist?

It sure could be read to sound like you think I am.

------

Just because Vermont has a low minority population does not mean Dean should get away with nominating ZERO minorities.

[LoZoccolo]

12. Sure it could be read that way...

...in a kind of quote-out-of-context, fast-and-loose-with-logic, let's-get-something-sensationalistic-out-of-this-and-run-with-it kind of way.

But fortunately for you, that's not the way I meant it to be read.

Now let's have the same respect for our next possible nominee, shall we?

[LoZoccolo]

14. P.S. According to the 2000 census...

...Native Americans and Alaskan Natives make up .9% of the population. Will Clark be a racist if he's elected and does not nominate a Native American? Remember, just because a group makes up a small part of the population, does not mean that Clark should get away with nominating ZERO Native Americans.

[LoZoccolo]

15. Before you ask for it...

http://www.census.gov/prod/2001pubs/c2kbr01-1.pdf

[vpigrad]

16. You hit the nail on the head

> does not Dean should get away with nominating ZERO minorities.

Exactly! Sharpton is fighting the good fight. The party has become much too Republican for most of us, and Sharpton is one of the few people that has national exposure that is attempting to convince the party to deliever what the members want.

[_Jumper_]

33. That will damage the case for affirmative action

Essentially, Dean will say "There weren't any qualified minorities so I hired an all-white workforce". That is the standard excuse by anti-diversity employers. He cannot say that and then lecture Americans on diversity and tell employers that they should have a diverse workforce.

[LoZoccolo]

37. No it won't.

:boring:

There's enough information in this thread to tell you the makeup of the population of Vermont and how many cabinet members he could appoint. I think it's obvious to a lot of people that this isn't a case of affirmative action being skirted.

[trogdor]

40. So, having looked far and wide, and having found no-one...

...does he pick a "Clarence Thomas" just to be able to say he supports AA? Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't you need some kind of qualifications for those six cabinet posts - you know, like time in the state legislature, leadership in some state agency, or something?

If he had done this, the Rove bullshit machine would have dragged out the old, "Dean is for hiring quotas" bit.

Somebody, ANYBODY, tell me who this outstanding, imminently qualified person of color was who should have been a member of Gov. Dean's cabinet. Could Rev. Sharpton tell us this? I bet his research didn't go anywhere near that depth.

Edit: I believe he did say that minorities were indeed represented at high levels of state government. Could these jobs not have been qualifiers for cabinet posts down the road? Isn't this how it's supposed to work?

[Eloriel]

44. Except that Affirmative Action plans use the population

as an indicator. IOW, if you're hiring people from the local area, your Affirmative Action "goals" are never higher than the population from which you draw.

In another thread last night it was pointed out that over 18 years he had 18 "chances" (with 6 cabinet members total at one time) to hire a minority -- that would be 0.5% a person, with VT's 3% minority make-up.

NO ONE would seriously complain about those kind of figures.

Could he have recruited from around the country, as Sharpton suggested? Yes, probably -- but did VT recruit for any of its positions? Probably not much, and remember he STILL would not have been expected to hire at significantly higher percentages than his small state.

Further, Sharpton's sample was a false indicator, a carefully selected group which he could use to hit Dean over the head with. Dean had hired minorities for his personal staff and also did fabulously with women.

Now -- a much more telling indicator is his current campaign staff. It has African American Andi Pringle as Deputy Campaign Manager, who had been CMB's Campaign Manager, he has Hispanics (several, I believe) and is probably the ONLY candidate to have a Native American on staff as head of the Oklahoma campaign.

Dean has a FINE and admirable record on civil rights -- it just wasn't concentrated into 6 cabinet positions.

Eloriel

[beaconess]

50. I see -

So, in your view, Howard Dean need only show a commitment to diversity in direct proportion to the percentage of minority population in Vermont? Not only is that a quota - which is illegal, by the way - but it completely ignores the basic purpose of affirmative action and diversity.

Under your scenario - and that promulgated by the numerous Dean supporters who have revealed themselves to be anti-affirmative action and anti-diversity (not to mention, in some cases, out and out bigoted), unless a minority population reaches a critical mass that would, under a strict (albeit illegal) quota system, equate to at least one whole person of color in the governor's cabinet, there is absolutely no value in the governor trying to create a cabinet that contains at least one or two people who look like a portion of the population.

In other words, shouldn't Mr. "I'm the only white person on earth who understands the race issue" maybe have done a little more than the absolute minimum when it came to trying to achieve diversity in his cabinet? It's rather hard to accept as a race prophet a man who found it way too much trouble to bother making a little extra effort to appoint a few minorities.

[beaconess]

45. Exactly!

That is ALWAYS the excuse that people use to justify discrimination. The presumption that qualified minorities can't be found - when there never seems to be a problem finding qualified white people - is the very basis of the attitude that affirmative action is designed to combat. Affirmative action involves making a little extra effort to attract and hire qualified people - which really isn't all that hard, despite what some folks claim. Howard Dean loves to lecture everyone on why affirmative action is necessary. Who knew he believed that it's only necessary if it doesn't take any extra effort on the part of the employer? Otherwise, never mind.

To his credit, Dean has not tried to make stupid "there aren't any black people in Vermont" excuses - at least not yet. But many of his supporters have flooded DU with claims that would make Trent Lott apologists proud and show their true colors. Shame on Dean for not being more inclusive, but shame, shame, shame even more on his supporters who are trying to justify his failure in this regard with such ridiculous, insulting and, yes, bigoted arguments.

[LoZoccolo]

48. Stupid excuses?

:boring:

.005 * 6 = .03, round that to 0.
.009 * 6 = .054, round that to 0.

Are you going to accuse me of bigoted math?

[beaconess]

49. Well, now that you mention it, your math does suffer from a rather

interesting bias.

Perhaps you haven't noticed that in all of the mathematical gymnastics that you and other Dean defenders are engaging in today, you always manage to round the percentages DOWN, rather than up.

.005 * 6 = .03, round that to 0.
.009 * 6 = .054, round that to 0.

Hmmm. Why not instead of rounding DOWN to 0, we round UP to 1? Wow! What a concept! That would mean making an affirmative effort to increase diversity, wouldn't it? Oh, wait a minute. That's what affirmative action does!

Get it?

[LoZoccolo]

52. Nah, there's no bias in my math.

Amounts equal to or greater than .5 are rounded up.

What would you have done if there were two cabinet positions open instead of six?

I think Italian-Americans are underrepresented in politics, and that there's probably a prejudice amongst certain people that they would introduce an organized crime element into government. That doesn't mean I jump on every unfair opportunity to accuse someone of prejudice just because I know that that prejudice exists somewhere. But I think I'll start now. Every candidate other than Dean is prejudiced against Italian-Americans because none of their campaign managers are Italian-American.

:eyes:

[fabius]

25. I can't see many Black voters voting Bush...

...just because of Condi and Powell. Conservative blacks will anyhow, no matter if Dean's cabinet was all blacks.

Furthermore I don't see too many Hispanics gettgin fooled by the Bushite program either. See my other post this page. Nothing but slogans.

[dansolo]

36. Bush will not use the race issue

Bush doesn't want people to be reminded of the 90,000 African-Americans that were illegally prevented from voting by his brother in Florida.

[bitchkitty]

38. Do you think that

African Americans are stupid? Evidently you do.

[stickdog]

51. And Bush's house slaves will help him win which voters? (nt)

[Unforgiven]

9. Thanks for

all the support................Al!

Idiot!

Have some cheese to go with that wine and go join Lieberman.






What is "our" right wing learning?

- Unforgiven

[economic justice]

13. Sharpton.......ugh

I am one black guy at DU that believes Sharpton is a shyster of the first order. A black "leader"??? Not MINE! The future for blacks in our party lie with people like Harold Ford, not the whining and race baiting of Al "not-too" Sharp-ton.
edit: If you missed the New York Times piece yesterday....here it is:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/10/politics/campaigns/10SHAR.html

[are_we_united_yet]

19. Disagree with your assessment of Sharpton.

While I do think he steps on his crank by over playing the race card repeatedly, a move I personally despise, Shyster is inappropriate. He has been honing himself, successfully I might add, to replace Jesse Jackson, and has a great deal of influence over Urban blacks otherwise disenfranchised from the political process.

Many people don't care for Al dating all the way back to Tawanna Brawley in Duchess County, but his influence over Blacks in NYC, DC, Newark, Boston, Phila etc. is considerable arguably more so then Harold Ford of Tennessee.

[economic justice]

21. Well, of course

I was really speaking on a national level. As for "shyster"....I know it's tough, but this guy has used religion for his own purposes and is now doing the same on the national political stage. I think most blacks listen to Sharpton because he says things that are sometimes spot on....but he doesn't walk his talk and....well...I just don't like the guy.

[are_we_united_yet]

27. I guess I don't blame you for disliking him.

Sharpton's record has been anything but stellar. I myself had an intense disliking for the man. Then along came the W administration which supplanted him big time. The transition came when I realized of how he mobilized angry inner city blacks to take "any" interest in the political process rather than resort to some other non-productive action. Also his assault on the W Administration gave me new respect for him.

I guess we can agree that Sharpton playing the race card in this instance is BS especially since he's beaten the living shit out that horse in the past.

[trogdor]

42. My question for Rev. Al is...

...is he committed to beating George W. Bush, or just beating on the seven white Democrats? I have serious doubts whether Al Sharpton is really a team player when it comes right down to it. I have no such douts about Dr. Dean, comments about "non-transferrable voters" notwithstanding.

[solinvictus]

17. Sharpton the splitter

He seems to be a creation of Rove and Company.

[economic justice]

18. Yup! I agree

Ask Carl McCall in New York about Al Sharpton. He just couldn't stand seeing McCall get attention - his ego drove him to hold the big rally for Pataki.

[Rowdyboy]

20. 3,102

not one of whom ever served in a Dean cabinet.

[mrdmk]

22. Put this one on the "Yeah Right List"

Charles Lewis of the Center of the Public Integrity has some interesting things to say about the presidential candidates and he expresses some info about Al Sharpton that can make one laugh and cry at the same time. One is that Sharpton borrows all of his suits. Watch Democracy Now for the rest.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/01/09/1541218

http://www.bop2004.org/bop2004/report.aspx?aid=132

edit: typo (I am really good at those, keyboards who needs them).

[Octafish]

23. How do you explain Dean saying: "Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King"?

DEAN: Well, let me just say one thing, which I have said before but I'll say it again. If the percentage of African-Americans in your state was any indication of what your views on race were, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.

TRANSCRIPT:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8591-2004Jan11_3.html

That IS a rather odd thing to say, let alone say it more than once. If a lesser man said it, it would be quite shocking. For a man running for my Party's nomination for Presidnet, it's disgraceful.

[Fleshdancer]

26. It speaks for itself and he's right.

People have dismissed Dean in the past by claiming he wouldn't be a strong enough voice for civil rights because he was Governor of a state with a very small minority population.

Large minority populations in a state is not an indicator that a leader in that state would have any compassion for minorities. Case in point: Racists like Trent Lott. And it's safe to say Lott is NOT Martin Luther King.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

41. No. It's irrevelant. Dean offers cover and a dodge

and no substance.

[mrdmk]

28. Lets look at the whole exchange instead of a sound bite

SHARPTON: I want to -- you know, I have to ask this. I was going to ask Dennis something.

But I have to ask you this, Governor Dean, because I was disappointed you weren't in Washington the other day. But you keep talking about talking about race. In the state of Vermont -- where you were governor '97, '99, 2001 -- not one black or brown held a senior policy position, not one. You yourself said we must do something about it. Nothing was done.

Can you explain -- since now you want to convene everyone and talk about race, it seems as though you have discovered blacks and browns during this campaign.

(LAUGHTER)

(APPLAUSE)

How you can explain not one black or brown working for your administration as governor?

DEAN: Well, actually, I beg to differ with your statistics there.

SHARPTON: This is according to your paper in Vermont, the Associated Press, and the Center for Women in Government.

DEAN: Well, perhaps you ought not to believe everything in the Associated Press.

SHARPTON: Oh, so you're saying they're incorrect?

DEAN: We do have African-American and Latino workers in state government, including...

SHARPTON: No, no, I said under your administration. Do you have a senior member of your cabinet that was black or brown?

DEAN: We had a senior member of my staff on my fifth floor.

SHARPTON: No, your cabinet.

DEAN: No, we did not.

SHARPTON: OK, that's not...

DEAN: ... six members.

(APPLAUSE)

SHARPTON: Then you need to let me talk to you about race in this country.

DEAN: Well, let me just say one thing, which I have said before but I'll say it again. If the percentage of African-Americans in your state was any indication of what your views on race were, then Trent Lott would be Martin Luther King.

SHARPTON: But I don't think that that answers the question. I think if you're talking -- if you want to lecture people on race, you ought to have the background and track record in order to do that. And I think that clearly people -- governors import talent, governors reach all over the country to make sure they have diversity.

And I think that, while I respect the fact you brought race into this campaign, you ought to talk freely and openly about whether you went out of the box to try to do something about race in your home state and have experience with working with blacks and browns at peer level, not as just friends you might have had in college.

[economic justice]

30. Thanks for that

SHARPTON: Then you need to let me talk to you about race in this country.

Oh yeah, Al. You have SUCH a great record on race relations!
:wow:

[DemBones DemBones]

34. That comment BOMBED at the Brown & Black Debates!

He really needs to think more about his audience.

[Fleshdancer]

24. It's a bit premature to jump on Dean about this issue.

All it takes is one statement from Dean and/or his campaign to list all the the minority people he hired throughout his political career, any and all programs he supported that helped minorities, and all his positions regarding civil rights. If he's smart enough to do this, it will be a non-issue. Arguing over this when we don't have the complete picture is odd.

As for Rev. Sharpton dismissing Dean's endorsements...well it doesn't do anything but insult the minorities who have endorsed Dean. The idea that Jesse Jackson Jr. would endorse a candidate who was "hypocritical" on the issue of race is absurd.

[are_we_united_yet]

29. Aint No Black People in Vermont Al. n/t

[jsw_81]

31. I'm sick and tired of Sharpton's attacks

Has he ever balanced a budget? Has he built schools? Has he cleaned up the environment? Has he governed a state? Has he ever saved anyone's life? Howard Dean has.

As far as I'm concerned, Sharpton and the other non-serious candidates should be banned from the debates from now on. It's time to get serious about uniting behind a candidate so we can beat Bush this fall. If the circus continues, however, the voters won't take us seriously and Bush may get elected for real this time.

[Ficus]

47. screw Democracy!

As far as I'm concerned, Sharpton and the other non-serious candidates should be banned from the debates from now on.

Yes, let's throw out democracy! Who needs it anyways?

[La_Serpiente]

32. I believe it could hurt in General

even Bush has more minorities in his cabinet than Dean.

[PatrickS]

39. Yeah, and Bush as killed more African-Americans on death row

than Dean.

:eyes:

[bitchkitty]

43. Yea, HIspanics and African Americans

will vote for Bush. Bush will win by a landslide because he's got Colin and Candy. Yup, that's the ticket.

[tinanator]

35. who needs Sharpton?

Dean keeps stepping in the race issue like so much dog shit. He is extremely vulnerable on it. Through nobodies fault but his.

[diamondsoul]

46. I didn't vote because the responses don't fit

what I think so here goes-

I think it has the potential to hurt him, but he also has a way out, and honestly I wish he'd used it last night. I dislike Dean as a potential President, however I think Sharpton launched an unfounded attack on him. The question was a valid one to ask- that's not the problem, the problem is Sharpton is doing just what I've said he was doing from the outset, focusing on race to the detriment of every other issue.

The other problem is I saw Dean fall under a ruthless attack, and that worries me as far as him going up against Bush and Rove. I watched and was honestly shocked that he didn't have an answer to that issue. I could have answered it for him. Sharpton handed him an out on a silver platter with the reference to "importing talent", and he didn't take it.