How can anyone support Bush after those two debates?

[genius]

Can someone explain to me what is going on in the heads of Bush supporters? Are they totally uncaring about our troops or about people who need stem cell research or about the environment or about those who need jobs? Is taking control of the bodies of all women so important to them that it is their number one driving force? To me, it seems that they must be totally ignorant or totally evil. None of my friends are voting for Bush. The people I know who are Bush-supporters are people I wouldn't like even if I didn't know their politics. Does anyone have any insight into what it will take to get these people to do the right thing in November?

[Mojambo]

1. Barry Manilow has released more than 15 albums

People will keep going back for crap even after it is widely regarded as crap.

It's a human failing.

[Carolinian]

32. I love his music. So there!

[leftofthedial]

2. one of two things must be true

Either:

1. The media and pollsters ar lying and support for the bushturd is nowhere near what they claim (I've seen the signs in the white suburban neighborhoods though)

OR

2. A large percentage of Murkans are delusional, irrational, mental defectives. (Or they are evil.)

Either way, we have a serious problem.

[bullimiami]

3. consider the person of average intelligence

and realize that half of the population is less intelligent than that.

[opihimoimoi]

5. Ever notice the Pubs don't evern mention a WAR ON IGNORANCE??

They want and got a stupid America.

A Stupid America sucks for their BS Hook Line and Pole.

[PretzelWarrior]

7. The WARR.....ON BRAAINNNSSS!!!

pretty darn funny bit on Morning Sedition.

[cthrumatrix]

22. it's like a "team sport"..they don't like being wrong... the media

has a share of blame becuase many people are simply uninformed.

The debates have helped but the spinners and pollers cloud the issues.

[ewagner]

27. Bingo!!

You hit it right on the head.

The Repubs have reduced EVERYTHING to a team sport. Dramatic cheerleading to keep the fans rooting for the team and keep the rfevenues flowing.

Take a look at the "we're going to kick Saddam's A$$" rhetoric before the invasion...take a look at those terrible Country Western Songs about the war and 9/11.

Take a look at how Tweety covered the debates....marching bands and cheerleaders to keep the crowds fired up.

It's a team sport all right......

[opihimoimoi]

30. Double BINGO.... XX

[AndyTiedye]

4. A Coalition of the Ignorant and the Evil

> Can someone explain to me what is going on in the heads of Bush supporters?



> Are they totally uncaring about our troops

Yes.

> or about people who need stem cell research

Yes.

> or about the environment

Yup.

> or about those who need jobs?

Oh, they care about them, they want their numbers to be as large
as possible.

> Is taking control of the bodies of all women so important to them
> that it is their number one driving force?

Must--breed--more--cannon--fodder--for--the--Crusade

> To me, it seems that they must be totally or totally evil.

The Republican party today is a coalition of the ignorant and the evil.
There are a few good people in it, like Sen. Chaffee, but they are
badly outnumbered.

> None of my friends are voting for Bush. The people I know who are
> Bush-supporters are people I wouldn't like even if I didn't know
> their politics. Does anyone have any insight into what it will take > to get these people to do the right thing in November?

I only know one, and he is someone who really should know better,
but he has watched too much fauxnews and has now lost the capacity
for independent thought. It's really sad.

[The Straight Story]

6. Several insights

1. No one likes their team to lose. Those who support a particular candidate could be seen as religious in their fervor. Many do not agree with kerry totally on things, but they will vote for him anyway. And as far as the debates go, some did not see kerry as good as other dems in the primary debates but he won anyway. Why? Are dems, to some degree, similar in how they feverntly support someone with a (d) after their name at times (and consider DU - we are in support kerry mode and bash him later if needed, but for now we ignore his faults as much as we can and push ahead because he represents more than just his office - the same is true of the right. * is more than the president, his winning would be a victory in other areas and so they overlook his faults).

2. Stem cells - do a google on "stem cells research lies" - those on the right see this whole debate in a different light.

3. Women's right to choose - to them abortion is the death penalty for someone innocent, so voting against a canidate who supports murder because someone could not make the choice against having sex is a big deal. To them the left is a paradox - we don't support the death penalty but we do abortion (note here: I don't mean all either for the right or left, just generalizing).

4. environment - they see the science touting global warming as flawed, as do some others. They fear a loss of rights for all based on a science which they see akin to a religion (and science is funny that way, there are people who are on both sides of the science issues - but isn't science supposed to be more exact? It appears not, so they see it as a 'faith based science' based more on personal politics of the scientists than real facts).

Overall * supporters see the left as wanting to diminish rights (from smoking in bars to stopping you from having a fireplace for the environment) and the right as wanting to increase them. * is not perfect but he is closer to what they want - and if he wins it will empower others on the right when they run.

Maybe all a guess, but I have been reading right and left boards since 2000 and that is the view from them I have seen.

[evilqueen]

10. Response, point by point.

1. I somewhat agree with you here, but at this point in our history it's not a good time to give up critically thinking about the *issues* that matter to all people of the earth as a whole.

2. They favor adult stem cell (ASC) research but are opposed to embryonic stem cell (ESC) research. This, however, limits scientific progress; the current available lines are also not suitable for much more research (contamination, etc. issues). Embryos used in ESC research generally come from fertility clinics where they are frozen for a time and then discarded. Rather than allowing those embryos to be wasted, it is, imho, more ethical to allow researchers to pursue medical research in the hopes that even one person's life may be helped. One issue here is: Are those on the Right also opposed to fertility clinics?

3. They assume that pro-choice = abortion. That's not it, because abortion is only one of the options. Freedom is about allowing people to make their own choices based on their own beliefs and not legislating your beliefs on others who don't share your religion, and it's also about taking personal responsibility for whatever choices you make. Pro-life, on the other hand, dictates only one choice to everyone, regardless of others' beliefs and regardless of circumstances. What I find at odds with this is that many pro-lifers, like Shrub, also favor the death penalty (if life is sacred, it's hypocritical to pick and choose who lives and who dies), and many of these folks have no qualms about sending other people off to get killed in a war, yet won't go to the recruiter's office to enlist themselves.

4. Global warming is just one part of the picture. There's also: industrial pollution, deforestation, SUVs, contaminated water supplies, erosion, chemical and nuclear dumping, etc. This war we're in is also resulting in some unintended(?) problems of spent uranium contamination... it pulverizes and turns into dust which people breathe, it also goes into the soil and into the water supply. Radiation is not a pretty thing and it doesn't go away for 4.5 billion years. The effects from what has already been done in the middle east are going to be with us forever. 67% of Gulf War veterans have developed symptoms or had children affected by the radiation these soldiers were exposed to. Science, whether they care to believe it or not, cannot be so easily brushed off as hocus pocus... especially when it is your kid that's all messed up. Empathy for others is one of the main tenets of most religions in the world, and if these folks are pro-life, you would think they would understand that it applies to the environment we all have to live in.

[The White Tree]

24. On points 2 and 3

On 2:

I know some Christian people who are very nice people and very reasonable. One of them was trying to get pregnant for several years but refused to go to a fertility clinic for help because she felt it was Gods will if she got pregnant or not. So I think there is a percentage of the population that is against even fertility clinics. This women eventually had 2 children.

On 3: I stated in another post in this thread that one of the abortion web-site (I think is was abortiontv) had a graphic comparing US War deaths for every war to the "abortion deaths" that have occurred since 1973. They site 40 million "deaths" attibuted to abortion. They feel this number of "deaths" overrides all other deaths (including apparantly deaths to women in child birth). To many it's a numbers game. They feel if abortion is illegal a million lives will be saved each year. Whle I think this view is myopic, it is hard to counter.

[cali]

11. Let me misquote here:

Thank heaven for thought ful posters. I don't agree entirely with you, but close enough. Essentially what you said is that we all view things through the prism of our beliefs and experiences. And that's a heck of a powerful prism. The problem is we often don't recognize that we're doing this. (I'm using a universal we, here, and referring to most, if not all, humans) None of of us can really look at anything objectively. Hey, we're not objects. The closest we can get is the collective subjective.

[The Straight Story]

26. yeah

what you said :) ok, so I am long winded...you did encapsulate nicely. May have to re-use sometime.

[cali]

29. Anytime.

I'm flattered.

[gospelized]

8. bush could

sprout tentacles and rape the nearest japanese girl; and republicans would still support him.

[The Straight Story]

9. PS -see this post in freeper land:

Popped over there after writing and saw this:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1242316/posts

The right sees the left as supporting iraq war and that dems were sure saddam had WMD. So when we make posts about Iraq and wmd and blame * they see him as innoncent - and if not innocent than the dems are just as guilty so why are they complaining?

People choose sides early on, then defend that side. Spin, Spin, Spin. The problem is not * or kerry, it is politics. The most progressive candidate may not win the primary but we see anyone as more progressive than *. We work on small victories, and so do they. They secretly don't like *, but to tell others that may cost them more in the long term.

To me that is the key overall. People fear. They fear their causes will slide further away, they fear losing, they fear rejection of their ideals.

We need Kerry in office. The country needs him. Somewhere deep inside the right feels the need for change as well.

Kerry is not the best person for the job, but he is damn well better than who is doing it now. I vote for him because he will do better - for all people, not just americans. He won't do all things my way, that is fine - I will point out his problems when they crop up as well. But damn, he is needed.

If Kerry loses - I won't leave or riot. I will work on educating people. We CAN win the war, it just takes time and education and a clear message. *, if he wins, could in a twisted way help us all in the long term (if we make it long term) by showing the american people once and for all how bad the policies of the right are. I would rather that not happen of course, but I always look for the rainbow in the rain.

Both sides want 'problem areas' to go away, they differ on how that will happen. Much like a religion which fractures. Which is why I was always mystified when people bashed religion - it is no different in many ways to politics or personal philosophy which carries over into politics.

But I ramble, I apologize :) A good question, which I hope I have in some way helped to shed some light on.

[Piperay]

12. Clinton

had a blow job, that's why. :crazy:

[zinsky]

13. It's A Discernment Problem

Many people have lost or never aquired the ability to discern quality from hype - reality from BS. Hence the popularity of completely idiotic shows like Fear Factor and Survivor. They can't discern good music from bad music, hence the popularity of rap. It also applies to politics, where some people apparently can't tell a good president from a bad one.

Its part of a general "dumbing down" of America, where no one reads, no one studies history to learn from it, etc. Very sad...

[12ss1kp]

14. .

Apparently this right wing gun nut does.

[newyawker99]

25. Hi 12ss1kp!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Bullshot]

15. They're saying that speaking style and command of facts don't count.

They want a strong leader who's not afraid of making a decision and sticking with it. (Sounds like sour grapes to me.) Never mind that Bush's assessment of Iraq and WMDs was as wrong as wrong could be. Never mind that it's resulted in the deaths of tens of thousands of people and injuries to tens of thousands more.

It's the dumbing down of America. People see this dumb stuff on TV and they don't have a clue that real people are really dying or suffering permanent life-altering injuries.

[SHRED]

16. The NRA

I know a few who listen to there spin and believe it.
Also, they just hate the fact that Kerry spoke the truth about the Vietnam "war".
Every other issue(the important ones) takes a back seat.

[evilqueen]

17. smoke signals

Does anyone have any insight into what it will take to get these people to do the right thing in November?

Short of a divine intervention? No.

[Lucygirl]

18. The Deabates

All Bush had to do for the debates was show up with his pants on correctly, and his supporters claimed victory.

[0007]

20. A small contribution will get ya a hit - no ticky no laundry

[ScreamingMeemie]

19. Because it sucks to be wrong...plain and simple...

I mean who are you going to believe Bush, the man, or your lying eyes?

[Hailtothechimp]

21. Because Jesus said so

Seriously. These people think that Jr. is in the White House because God put him there. That's frightening.

[The White Tree]

23. It's abortion

For most it will probably be the abortion issue. Note this article in the NYTimes today:

Group of Bishops Using Influence to Oppose Kerry

<http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/12/politics/campaign/12catholics.html?hp&ex=1097640000&en=1548d8d560c9b43f&ei=5094&partner=homepage>

"The church says abortion is a foundational issue,'' the archbishop explained to a group of Catholic college students gathered in a sports bar here in this swing state on Friday night. He stopped short of telling them whom to vote for, but he reminded them of Mr. Kerry's support for abortion rights. And he pointed out the potential impact his re-election could have on Roe v. Wade.

"Supreme Court cases can be overturned, right?" he asked.

When I read this article I was trying to find a good way to rebut it but I really can't find meaningful ways to explain to people who think that each abortion is a murder that anything else matters. I looked at some of the web-sites and they compare war deaths to abortion "deaths" with graphs and the numbers look staggering (They site something like 40 million abortion deaths since 1973 in the US). They feel Bush, through the Supreme Court or otherwise, will make abortion illegal and then suddenly all abortions will stop and then God will welcome them all in to Heaven. It is not a logical response but an emotional one, one that is powerful enough to make even a person who is pro-choice hesitate and think again.

My family is Catholic and split on how they are voting for president for various reasons. But they all think that abortion is wrong and most feel it should be illegal or restricted in some way. They are particularly incensed about people who use abortion as a form of birth control.

I think going forward the Democratic Party has to find a way to look at this issue and deal with the particulars in a way that addresses the concerns of people like my family that bring all sides to the table to work out a way to best deal with some of the concerns people have with abortion and to address the simple fact that having an abortion is ultimately not a positive thing in comparison to not having an unwanted pregnancy.

Unfortunately, like most issues it is one that is not really black and white but that many people on both sides of the issue believe is.

[Bridget Burke]

28. Those bishops do not represent all Catholic thinking.

Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the Vatican's arbiter of doctrinal orthodoxy, has given Roman Catholic voters leeway under certain circumstances to vote for politicians who support abortion rights, U.S. Catholic officials said yesterday...

Susan Gibbs, a spokeswoman for (Washington DC Bishop) McCarrick, said Ratzinger's statement means that "a Catholic can never vote for a candidate precisely because the candidate supports abortion."

"However, there could be circumstances where a voter, bearing in mind the primacy of the life issue, supports the candidate for other serious reasons," she said. "Each Catholic is called to consider these issues from a faith perspective and to weigh the candidates' positions very carefully before voting."

Gibbs added that "the church speaks on issues, not on individuals. The church never tells someone who to vote for."

www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3534-2004Sep7.html

The Church opposes capital punishment and aggressive war and supports social justice. In many ways, Bush is profoundly anti-life.

[Carolinian]

31. It's MACHO! A guy on FR just posted that when abortion is reversed

women can go back to being "seen and not heard". I hate Bush. I hate what he's done the this country, my friends and my family. I just hate him. I can never accept him as President again. If he wins I hope there's a 30 day protest on the White House lawn and a spending strike.

[cyr330]

33. Just think about it. . . .

How could anybody be stupid enough to vote for him after he's been president for almost four years? Furthermore, how could anyone have voted for dumbass last time? I just completely do NOT understand this degree of stupidity. They are STUPID, STUPID, STUPID. They shouldn't even be allowed to vote, as they are obviously so ill-informed that they don't qualify as being in a sane enough state of mind to do so.. . . Revolting.