Honestly, Team America concerns me more than Stolen Honor..

[vi5]

As I posted last night, I think that on the Sinclair aired, Kerry Vietnam issue, people who are going to be swayed by that in the few markets it is airing, have already made up their minds on it and are already set in their ways.

This Parker/Stone movie is going to appeal to one of our supposedly strong demographics (youth, 18-29, etc.) and will be doing so through humor. If anyone got a chance to read the interview with Parker and Stone in Salon today you know they actually believe that celebrities and lefties speaking out against the war or any kind of liberal politics are worse than what the right is doing to this country. They basically say that they believe that no matter what arguments either side is presenting, that ultimately "America! Fuck Yeah!" wins out in the end, and to the age group targeted by this movie that may very well be an appealing point. What they are going to do through humor in a movie that will play wide all across the country is more potentially damaging to what we are trying to accomplish in these last weeks than this Sinclair movie will.

Just my opinion, but reading that interview first thing this morning really stuck in my craw and made me more concerned than any of the articles I've read about the whole Sinclair thing.

[Triana]

1. the 18-29 year olds watch...

...nick at night and other such muck. Humour appeals to them - no matter how stupid the included message - and they vote accordingly, based on what they see in such 'humour' shows.

[vi5]

2. Exactly my point.....

Although I don't know any 18-29 year olds that watch Nick at Night.

[phish420]

23. Me Neither

[colonel odis]

3. a lot of them also watch 'the daily show,' which doesn't pull

any punches when it comes to either candidate.

'team america' is a movie. anyone can choose to go or not go to a movie.

the sincliar imbroglio concerns use of the airwaves, which are theoretically owned by the public. for them to commit the airwaves to an unpaid, partisan diatribe against one candidate is highly unethical and probably illegal.

[Joe Chi Minh]

5. I wonder if JK or his people

might do well to look for oppportunities to quote very dry quips, such as that one of Einstein about his not knowing with what weapons WWIII would be fought, but he did know that WWIV would be fought with sticks and stones...!

There are a lot of people right across society who love that kind of extremely pointed, sardonic humour, who might not have seen it quoted on the Net. There are some very dry and incisive tag-lines on the likes of the Salon Table Talk forum, tailor-made for the purposes of a Democratic campaign.

[Zing Zing Zingbah]

54. I don't think this movie is a personal attack on Kerry

like "Stolen Honor" is. The other issue is that Sinclair plans on presenting "Stolen Honor" as if it was news. Nobody thinks anything in the South Park guys' movies or shows is news. 18 to 29 year olds aren't as dumb as you make them out to be either. Remember a lot of these same people enjoy watching the daily show. People can laugh at the democrats and still vote for them, and the same goes for the republicans. I don't think this movie is going to have that much influence on this election, if any.

[Democat]

4. The Parker/Stone apologists will not admit they are right wingers

How many times does it have to be pointed out to people here that Parker and Stone are Republicans. They may not admit it, but these guys are right wing propaganda makers.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

8. Bollocks... Libertarians maybe, but Republicans? No frickin way.

That is as likely as George Bush holding a press conference tomorrow to announce that he has been living a terrible lie and henceforth wishes to be called Georgina, and that his gender reasssignment operation is scheduled for a week from Monday.

Hell, Matt Stone appeared in Bowling for Columbine! That REALLY sounds like a Republican to me!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

12. Discouraging young people from voting is irresponsible, IMHO...

...but Stone appeared in a MM movie so that makes it okay?

WTF??

[Devils Advocate NZ]

14. Ok, when did he discourage people from voting?

Never saw anything like that myself, so a link would be very helpful.

Failing that, could you at least explain that statement?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

18. Here's your link

What it isn't, the pair insist, is an attack on Bush and the Republicans.

"It has a lot of messages, but the overall message is really just one of optimism, 'cause when you laugh at s- - - you're just inherently saying, 'People, it's not as f- - -ing dire as you're all making it out to be," Parker says. "That's our point."

We should make a little PSA : 'Please, if you're the kind of person who's going to change your vote based on seeing our movie or seeing Michael Moore's movie, you should not be voting. Please don't vote. Thank you very much.' "

http://www.nypost.com/entertainment/30964.htm

[SemiCharmedQuark]

19. Also This

If you don't know what you're talking about, there's no shame in not voting," Stone says finally. "They say if you don't vote, you can't bitch. But you can bitch all you want. This is America."


http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/_/id/6539084...

[vi5]

20. Go to www.salon.com...

You may need a membership but I'll cut and paste this portion of it:

**************************************************************
Well, in parting, do you have a special message for all those undecided voters out there?

Stone: Stay home.

Parker: Don't vote!

Stone: And it's no big deal. If you don't want to vote, you don't have to. Fuck that vote or die shit. I hate that.
**********************
also:
"All we ever said was that we thought that uninformed people should not vote -- on either side of the political spectrum. It doesn't matter who you're gonna vote for. If you really don't know who you're gonna vote for, or are uninformed, or haven't really thought about it? Just stay home. Don't let people fucking shame you into going to the polls. "

[Devils Advocate NZ]

24. yes, after all we really wnat a whole lot of uninformed people to vote!

I mean after all, its not like the Republicans rely on the "feel good" while the Dems rely on the "makes you think" strategies, eh?

I actually agree with them - if you have no idea who is better for the US and the world, you probably shouldn't be voting!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

27. No, if you don't know you need to get educated and THEN vote

To not vote is irresponsible and the simple way out. We're not children. When you don't know something you go out and LEARN about it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

30. And for kids that DO want to get informed, Matt and Trey made a video!

Check out this site, run by Norman Lear:

http://www.declareyourself.com/videos.htm

In there you will find a trailer to a movie called "Let's Go Voting" that Matt and Trey participated in producing.

Of course, YOU don't like them so they MUST be bad, right?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

31. The movie that's been described as "snarky" ? It's a sarcastic take on

voting. "Voting is like...way cool" I suspect you haven't seen it.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

34. So Norman Lear is an idiot?

After all, it's his organisation that is using it to encourage kids to vote!

[SemiCharmedQuark]

36. I never said that.

But what is true is that how can they on the one hand create this video and on the other say "Nah, if you don't know then just don't vote...no big deal"

[Devils Advocate NZ]

40. Its called HUMOUR!

You may not get it, but many, many people do.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

44. It's called "Irresponsible"

You may not get it, but many, many people do.

And as far as humor, I don't find "potty" language funny. I find their attempts at satire pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

57. And there is the admission I was expecting...

YOU don't like their humour, so THEY must be bad...

The reality is YOU don't like them, so you are trying to find reasons to attack them, even if you have to fabricate them.

[kslib]

52. Thank God! A voice of reason from Devil's Advocate!

:yourock:

[Devils Advocate NZ]

21. Well, looky here: "Let's go voting" by Matt and Trey...

Two groups have endorsed the "Declare Yourself" campaign and are recommending it to high schools across the United States. Newspapers in Education and National Association of Secretaries of State have said that they want to enable millions of high school seniors to see a short film called "Let's Go Voting" by "South Park" creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. The film discusses the importance of voting and features the voices of actors Ben Stiller and Vince Vaughn.
http://www.talonnews.com/news/2003/november/1117_lear_declare_yourself.shtml

Well, there goes that bullshit argument :-)

[vi5]

28. I think this is more of a sh*tstorm than I intended it to be...

I don't disagree with you on the surface, nor am I in the "They're REPUBLICANS!! Let's git 'em" camp either. But I've seen that Voting clip you are talking about and it's highly sarcastic. So which do I believe? Their direct quotes from their own mouths about not voting, or some sarcastic, smart assed cartoon they made?

My only point is that I think the misinterpretation by some of their contrarian brand of libertarianism is more likely to have an impact on the way certain people think than some of the other things people on here get all jazzed up over.

Ultimately will any of it have an impact? I don't think so. But I do like reading a discussion of it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

29. They said if you don't know then don't vote.

That's not correct. You should get involved and get educated on the topics and THEN vote. Of course, that's the mature, adult thing today and those two don't have a mature brain cell in between them.

Also have you seen the 20 minute movie? It's very sarcastic and is actually making fun of voting. "Voting is like way cool"

[Devils Advocate NZ]

32. Ok, pick your criticism...

When they say something do they often mean the opposite or not?

If so, then what they are doing with this movie could indeed be a poke in the eye of the uber-patriots, if not then this video is NOT making fun of voting!

The fact is they were asked to produce a video for a youth voter initiative, and they did, and that initiative run by Norman Lear is using it.

If it was poking fun at voting and encouraging kids not to vote, do you think Lear et al would use it?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

39. They say voting is super cool...

Kids laugh. The idea behind the video is to make kids say "hey, voting isn't so bad...the sp creators made this...and it's pro voting in a silly way" But then they go and in interviews say "Nah, voting isn't important" what is the world left to believe?

[Devils Advocate NZ]

42. That you shouldn't believe interviews?

Have you EVER seen a serious interview with Matt and Trey? There is NO SUCH THING!

They ALWAYS take the piss out of themselves, the interviewer, in fact the entire process.

That is just what they do.

Any Matt and Trey fan who listens to this interviews and actually follows what they suggest, SHOULDN'T be voting - they're too damn stupid.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

45. Look, to advocate abstanance from voting is ridiculous

The fact is, many kids listen to what those two dunderheads are saying. The 20 minute pro-voting movie is not big news. The 90 minute puppet movie is.

AND in this interview they are not taking the piss out of themselves, the interview, the interviewer or anything else. They are doing nothing but advocating irresponsible behavior.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

58. Prove that assertion!

many kids listen to what those two dunderheads are saying

Prove it! Show me some examples (or even one) where anyone has followed their "advice" (for want of a better word).

Of course they listen to what thet're saying - then they laugh their arses off. That doesn't mean they would take health (or voting) advice from them.

AND in this interview they are not taking the piss out of themselves, the interview, the interviewer or anything else. They are doing nothing but advocating irresponsible behavior.

Hmm, contrast that with:

Look, to advocate abstanance from voting is ridiculous

Now think about that in terms of their style of humour. Matt and Trey are ALL ABOUT the ridiculous. They constantly portray (or do) ridiculous things that are funny BECAUSE they are ridiculous! In fact so do Monty Python, but I bet you LIKE them...

[w13rd0]

17. George Bush appeared in F9-11...

...does that make him a Democrat? Just because they appeared in a Moore film (who, btw, campaigned for Nader in 2000), doesn't mean they AREN'T Republicans. I think they are apolitical shmucks, whose views are solely a derivation of "let's take the perspective of whatever will offend/piss off/irritate/make us money" and not any real introspection or evaluation of the issues.

Since when does the philosophy of Libertarianism cheer the feigned "blowing up" of those who give voice to points of view they find it profitable to make fun of? And is there anything well thought out about taking a "position" of "let's make fun of someone with an opinion, without actually voicing an opinion of our own".

Pffft. No, doesn't sound Republican, just sounds moronic.

[Cats Against Frist]

35. I think telling people not to vote isn't a very Libertarian position

Even though a libertarian would certainly respect the right NOT to vote, for libertarianism to work, according to their very own philosophies, people don't JUST need to vote, but become very active in politics on the state and local levels -- having informed citizens and informed consumers is one of the cruces of the libertarian argument.

Anarchy, on the other hand, which doesn't believe in any hierarchy, might not believe in voting for a CANDIDATE to lead, but they might be cool with voting on propositions and initiatives -- on a communal level, or small committees, unions and cooperatives, or something.

I don't know what these boys are -- nihilists, maybe, Libertarian, no.

[meganmonkey]

46. And they did Office Space, right?

[SemiCharmedQuark]

47. No. That was Mike Judge.

[phish420]

25. Not true...

Have you ever taken the time to watch South Park? Most episodes are about current political or social issues, and they almost always take the democratic (aka common sense) side in the end.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

6. I haven;t read the article...

but I can tell you one thing: If Matt and Trey say something, don't believe it. They take the piss out of everything, including themselves, so I wouldn't put it past them to have been doing a little "improv" with the interviewer.

They LOVE to mock things like political correctness, often by blowing it out of proportion to emphasise the ridiculousness of it. So it is entirely possible that they were being the gung-ho uber-patriots just to take the piss out of REAL gung-ho uber-patriots.

Like I said I haven't read the article but I have little doubt that anything they may have said was likely to mean the exact opposite of its apparent meaning.

[w13rd0]

7. Well, I don't care...

...because as my 8yr old says, their kind of humor appeals to the 4-6 yr old set still fascinated with poop. Stone and Parker can f*ck the hell off.

[vi5]

9. I don't know about that in this case...

I agree with you in general on this. And I'm actually the farthest thing from a knee-jerker on seeing right wing propaganda everywhere and in everyone. And up until I read this I gave them the benefit of the doubt.

Again, I"m not saying they are rabid republicans or right wingers. Nothing in this interview gave me that impression. I just think they are like a lot of people aged 18-29 (I know they are a few years older, but still) who don't take anything seriously, who are more apathetic than political, and as a result would rather make fun of the people who they feel take themselves too seriously, no matter how much that gravity may be justified.

Do I think these guys are horrible propagandists? Not at all. But I do think their misguided libertarianism and apathy can do more harm than a lot of other things we get all worked up over.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

10. Yeah Political Correctness is soooo ridiculous

:eyes:
Bull. If you think that then you've obviously never been on the receiving end of sexism or racism. There's a fine line between poking fun at PC and just crossing the line and using "anti-pc" as an excuse.

[theblasmo]

33. Actually Having Seen the Film...

I can say that what the film is really about is patronization and mainstream Hollywood ideas about the rest of the world. The first half of the film deals beautifully with the ways that many Americans see the world, in terms of "us" and "terrorists," going so far as to have captions for other contries that read "Paris, Europe. 'X-Amount' of miles east of America." The team performs surgery on one of their own to make him look like a "terrorist" -- note that they don't refer to Arabs as "Arabs", but "terrorists", representing the current administration's viewpoint -- and after several minutes of graphics and intense music, the guy winds up with a towel wrapped on top of his head like he's come out of the shower, a few misplaced bits of beard, and some dark makeup on his face. The team recognizes this as "perfect." Eventually, the team blows up most of Egypt to stop a briefcase full of WMD's, and then the film takes a turn you don't expect by becoming critical of Hollywood celebrities. By all rights, I should have been incredibly offended by this part, since it seems to make fun of people I respect and their viewpoints, but Parker and Stone have a different agenda. These actors are used to represent those people of two schools: 1. the ones who do not allow for the fact that the people who live in these countries can work to solve their own problems, and absolutely can't do it without us -- a patronistic viewpoint at best, and 2. Those left-ish critics who only say negative things about the country in interviews. What pisses Parker and Stone off most is that, many times, these people only criticize, and never speak optimistically, in some cases, taking positive events and belittling them to help out an agenda (unfortunately, this exists on both sides). I think they're pigeonholing here, to be sure, but they're also dealing with the egos of many of these people, who believe that as actors, they have better views on politics than many politicians, and can be as closed-minded as those they choose to debate. Sure, it's a stretch, and, sure, people like Janeane Garofalo are incredibly articulate and smart in their opinions, but to deny that the left can sometimes be overly negative in its argument and sometimes naive is to, again, be as closed-minded as those on the right who spout rhetorical garbage. Parker and Stone are after hypocrisy, the hypocriosy of big budget Hollywood action films, which work racism and homophobia into their plots and make millions, and the audiences -- both those who follow such creeds and don't bother to think about the imagery, and those who refuse to watch such films because they're offensive, and, therefore, cannot articulate the thoughts of people who do, which is necessary in order to come up with competent arguments to debunk such ideas. In other words, "No, I won't go see The Rock. I can't understand why anyone would want to." Well, millions of people do, and sometimes you need to see the crap to find out why. That's the most important part of the film, it's trashing of Hollywood film cliches by simply pointing out how inaccurate they are, and how many American audiences buy that crap. It's also an articulation of many of these people's ideas about activist celebrities, that they're naive enough, and "help the enemy (which is bullshit, and we all know it, but is how some people think)". At the end of the film, a puppet gets up, and to save the world through acting, gives the sort of speech you always hear at the ends of these films, which usually revolve around freedom, character, and moral obligation. Here, it's simply a chance to use the words "dick", "pussy" and "asshole" as many times as possible. It is inherently offensive. It is fucking hilarious, because many of the people who go to see these big budget action films will not see it as satire, but as a messaage couched in humor. It's not. It is a huge joke on them. This is a film for people who are smart -- for people who can discern between the way things are presented, and the way things are, and I appreciated every beautifully offensive part of it. Weird how when Monty Python skewered both sides of political issues, they're called geniuses -- and they are -- but this film, which works on many of the same surrealistic levels, is called crap because it doesn't do it as intellectually. I can't imagine a person with any semblance of intelligence seeing this film and thinking it's anything other than a huge criticism of Hollywood films in general and the "Ugly American" mindset. It's fucking incredible. And it has 2 minutes of the most graphic puppet sex ever.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

41. Why no criticisms of Right Wing celebrities?

And how can we be "optimistic" during a completely idiotic and unncessary war that is killing our own people and innocent Iraqis?

[theblasmo]

50. Sorry for the lack of brevity

Absolute agreement with you. There is nothing positive about the war in Iraq, except that it will end this administration's existence in a few weeks, four years too late. From an argumentative standpoint, though, at least acknowledging things in a "yes, jobs have been created, and that's good, however..." approach makes non-agreeing people look at your side legitimiately instead of regarding you as closed-minded, since you seem to be couching your argument in an non-biased manner. However, constant negative criticism can turn people off, especially those who don't already agree with you. And, no, the sound-bite culture doesn't help there, either. I listen to Kerry debate and applaud his ability to allow that, yes, there is some progress on the domestic front, but we need more and need it shaped better. That's how arguments are won, by at least acknolwedging the other side. Bush doesn't do that, and neither do his right-wing cronies. And the reason they're not in this film is that the heroes in the film represent the right-wing mentality. My wife and I wondered why there's not a Bill O'Reilly puppet or a Rush Limbaugh puppet, but also thought the Team itself spouted enough of their generalizations to more than make up for it. Again, I advise you to go see the film. There's no way it will make you like Michael Moore any less, and there's no way you can avoid the anti-administration message within it.

[SemiCharmedQuark]

53. Thanks for your explanation, I really do appreciate it.

I wasn't going to see it, but my husband is projectionist at our local theater and he gets to take a guest with him to see it for free. Since my money won't be going to them, I just might take it in.

[theblasmo]

55. Great discussion

And thanks for your comments. Before seeing the film, though, understand that it has more cursing than in any other film I've ever seen, gratuitous puppet sex, blood and gore, and everything else a Michael Bey film has, and he is name-checked, too, in the song "Pearl Harbor Sucks Just a Little Bit More Than I Miss You." If you don't laugh at South Park, you will definitely not laugh at this film. Hope you enjoy it.

[RafterMan]

43. Any chance you could slip a few paragraphs in there, tb?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

11. Did you happen to read Sean Penn's comments about...

...these two knuckleheads? Maybe you should find and READ that article, too.

[Devils Advocate NZ]

13. So Sean Penn is some sort of Guru whose opinions must be respected?

Or am I free to come to my own conclusions based on viewing their works?

[vi5]

22. I don't think anyone is saying that....

And none of this makes me love the South Park movie one iota less. It's still one of the funniest movies I have ever seen, beyond any shadow of a doubt.

I don't hold Sean Penn's opinion in any higher regard than theirs. But Penn's point was, if you are going to have an opinion on this stuff, then live it. If you think this war is o.k. and we have to be the world police (which they have said they believe) then go to Baghdad and Jordan and Israel or wherever and then come back and make all the fun you want.

I don't think that's too out of line.

[IdaBriggs]

26. Sean Penn invited them to tour Iraq with him next time he goes.

He has visited Iraq at least twice that I know of, and is doing everything he can to stop the suffering of the Iraqi people by using his celebrity status to point out that things are NOT GOOD over there. His invitation to Matt and Trey was intended to point out that "hey, it might just be fun and games for you, but people are DYING over here!" (my paraphrase) Its up to you whether or not you respect Sean Penn's views (personally, I think that was amazingly gutsy of him), but you can conclude whatever you want from it. :)

[clonebot]

15. i can't believe we are even worried about this

or discussing the political affiliation of the south park creators.

[vi5]

16. Am I losing sleep over it?

Not at all. I'm just pointing out that for all the yammering we're doing about the potential political implications of the stupid Sinclair movie thing, my point is that something like this as stupid as it is , is more likely to make an impact than the other thing.

Whether either one have any impact is debatable. I'm more just pointing out the disconnect between our perceptions on here.

Ultimately I don't really care whether they are republicans or not.

[RafterMan]

48. Then be at ease

I read the comments/blogs over at IMDB, and it looks like people basically see a confirmation of their own views in the movie, with the other side as the "real" target of the satire.

Further, I see any "disconnect". The Sinclair bit serves no purpose but to keep JK out of the White House. Team America may or may not ultimately have a point of view, and you may or may not agree with it, but it is clearly a totally different animal. And I don't think I'm the only one who cringes when the same ideological vetting process is applied to both.

[vi5]

49. I dont' think the same vetting process should apply to both...

I guess i just made the mistake of thinking aloud on a discussion board. Like I said, I think one could conceivably have a bit more impact than the other, but still.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

37. whatever their political leanings, they mangled Mel Gibson and the Passion

in one South Park episode. They portrayed the blind followers of the film as mindless, violent drones and portrayed Gibson as the ultimate nut job. One of the funniest South Park episodes I've ever seen.

As cynical as these two are, I have a hard time believing they adhere to any political party's platform. MKJ

[jgardner]

38. Personally, I can't wait to see it.

It looks funny as hell!

[Renew Deal]

51. Edit

It's not out yet. I don't expect it to have any affect.

[Ksec]

56. doesnt Team America make fun of these gung ho killem all idiots?

I havent kept up so Im just going by the ads Ive seen for it. It makes them look really stupid from what Ive seen.

[SoCalDemocrat]

59. I find some of their politics leans right

All of my conservative friends love South Park.

When they do political bits, IMO they tend to lean a bit to the right more often than not.

I'll reserve judgement on the movie until I see it. I've been offended by their handling of some political subjects in the past, and I suspect I will be again in this case.

[Moloch]

60. I wouldn't worry about that too much...

Matt Stone & Trey Parker make movies and shows basically to offend everyone, the used to have a show called That's My Bush! that mercilessly mocked * in every episode. I've not seen Team America, but I doubt anyone will take it seriously.