What do we do if Bush loses, but seizes power?

[Ravenseye]

I think it's a valid question. I'm not talking about sueing, or contesting vote counts or whatever.

I'm saying. What do we do if Kerry wins the popular vote. Kerry wins the electoral college. Bush challenges or contests the vote. Bush loses his challenges. Bush via the military, or the supreme court, or some shenanigans...refuses to give up power. I mean. Kerry actually wins. Provably wins. Legally wins. What happens if Bush still seizes power, via some method.

What do we do then?

*edit addition*
I know most people don't really believe he'd do this. It's never really happened before in our history. What if though they really do just hold onto power, and destroy the last vestiges of our republic?

[Jo March]

1. Rise up.

I will defend my country if I have to.

[Javaman]

66. Democratic Liberation Front...

I said it before I'll say it again, be prepared. I will never trust that fucking moron.

[TexasSissy]

82. I will join with the masses of voters who demand to have our voices heard.

Whether it's marching on Washington, or protesting, or whatever. I hope it doesn't come to that. I hope. But this is one middle aged voter who does not intend to have her vote stolen.

[Burma Jones]

2. We stop spending money......................

That should get him booted.....................

[ciaobox]

35. Actually, an interesting strategy.

If Bush refuses to cede power after a landslide Kerry win, instead of bringing riots to the streets, a well-organized consumer boycott in which at least 1/2 the country stopped buying anything but non-essentials should bring the economy to it's knees. I would assume in this battle we would finally have the media on our side and we could use our pocketbooks to force Bush out of his orifice.

[mahina]

43. In Chile they organized 'slow-downs' where everyone did everything sloooow

It was so encouraging to feel all the people around you together.
Banging pots and pans at a certain hour at night, hearing all your neighbors, is unifying.
A huge 'stay home' would do it.
#1- withold cooperation.

Edited to mention- that got rid of Pinochet!
Check out ' A force More Powerful" video on nonviolent resistance, that worked, around the world.

[Javaman]

67. I think even the repukes would be on our side.

[kayell]

69. It would certainly seperate the brown-shirts from the americans.

[calimary]

79. I wouldn't count on that. THEY have too much at stake, too. They

don't want to be out of power, and they benefit from having him in. They'd try to distract, yell louder, and call us "sore losermans" again, hoping it might stick. They'd unite behind their "leader," with the possible exceptions of such Republican renegades as Chuck Hagel, Lincoln Chafee, maybe Richard Lugar. MAYBE the two women of Maine. MAYBE.

Let's just put it this way: I won't hold my breath waiting for any of them to grow consciences, all of a sudden.

By the way, the work slowdowns, the large-scale consumer buying boycotts, and protests all over the country. That's what would also be needed. Remember, we would be up against the almighty power of the executive branch. He might declare martial law. He might order the military to "keep the peace." And, frankly, with enough of 'em loyal to the chain of command (recall those in the military who claimed they hated Clinton - most of 'em still acknowledged him as CIC, though, even if reluctantly, and followed through with orders), it remains to be seen how much of the military would obey, or would balk.

I do NOT put ANYTHING past these people. They lose more than just an election if they lose. There's that irresistable drug, power, and that's not even it. More than a few of them face possible prosecution without the cover of their government power monopoly to protect them.

As Mad-Eye Moody (Hogwarts professor and veteran wizard who, for a year, taught the rather formidable and ultra-significant class "Defense Against the Dark Arts") would say, from the last two Harry Potter books: CONSTANT VIGILANCE!!!!

[kayell]

68. I think you mean anything but essentials

Guaranteed I can give up videos and even new books, but beans, rice and salsa are necessities of life.

It would be a good thing to figure out what real essentials are. Although I'm a very economical living person, I could probably even cut my food budget in half, if I wanted to.

[evilqueen]

75. Don't go to work. Shut down everything.

[Shoeempress]

3. We started with a revolution, so a response in kind should not be

a surprise, if that were to happen.

[benburch]

4. Under those circumstances ONLY - War.

If Bush stages a military coup, then we take our orders from Elected President John Kerry and unseat him.

[bluedeminredstate]

5. Never happpen.

Poppy wouldn't allow it and neither would any other patriotic American.

[T Wolf]

11. That rules out the repukes.

And Poppy is no less a scumbag than his son, so I do not think he would call Junior off.

[atreides1]

18. You're Assuming

That Americans who support Bush are patriots and not nationalists.

And a few of the general officers on active duty realize that their own continued existence in the halls of power, would only be guaranteed by Bush.

Never say never!!!

[goclark]

30. Poppy is not patriotic

Poppy is giving the orders for all of the dirty tricks.

Read Kelly's book.

[Freddie Stubbs]

47. Then why didn't he do this in 1992?

:shrug:

[goclark]

62. Because he was planting the seeds for his little dim son

[Ravenseye]

49. What if...

...Bush and his new installed government say that they in fact won the election. Maybe they even claim that the democrats rigged the ballot in order to steal it, or something as perverse.

You don't think there would be plenty of 'Clinton isn't my President' people who would just believe and support it?

[Gman]

6. We'll be posting in 128 bit encryption

out answers to this question if it happens.

[Snivi Yllom]

7. what do you mean by seize power?

I think I know what you are implying but you need to state it.

[Ravenseye]

51. I mean...

...he's not elected but he doesn't leave.

I mean that by a variety of means, either another crowning by the supreme court, or other nefarious means, he stays as President even if Kerry wins the vote and the electoral college.

For instance I mean. Say Kerry wins, and I mean wins the college. Bush makes some claim that the vote was tampered with, maybe they arrange a fake terrorist attack or something, and declare martial law and suspend the election results indefinately until the 'crisis' is over.

[phantom power]

8. It would be under cover of "national emergency"

Therefore, I suspect most people would not resist.

[billybob537]

9. If everyone

got in his/her car and drove to Washington DC I think we could shut down the capital with no trouble.

[aquart]

10. What's he gonna use? The military that hates him?

The National Guard that hates him?

The Secret Service?

How's he gonna do it?

Give me a plan. "Some method" is just crap. Give me a practical possible venue.

[atreides1]

25. In Times of Chaos

There is no such thing as a practical possibility.

I would venture to say that he would still command the loyalty of some military units, especially those that can be accused of committing war crimes and violating the Geneva Conventions while they were in Iraq and Afghanistan.

As for the Secret Service, until such time as the President elect is sworn in they are still required to perform their duties for the outgoing President.

Plan:
The votes are counted, Kerry has won both the popular and electoral votes, and is declared the winner. Bush immediately declares martial law, places loyal military units on alert and deploys these units to
strategic locations, has all democratic members of Congress arrested, along with any republicans who refuse to back his take over.
He then declares the election results null and void, and announces that once the "National Emergemcy" is over, new elections will take place.
His true base, neoconservatives, fundamentalist Christians, groups like the KKK will flock to his banner, and start to inform on their neighbors, friends, and families.

How's that for a possible venue?

And please don't say that the Constitution will be violated, this president and his cronies don't give a rat's ass about the Constitution.

[WildEyedLiberal]

29. It wouldn't surprise me.

Not at all. The fascists are willing to play along with the charade of democracy while it suits them, but once the election results come back in a landslide victory for Kerry, I fear that all conventions and laws will be thrown to the wind. I've always wondered if they'll declare martial law after Kerry wins and declare the election null and void.

As frightening as this scenario is, it makes me feel very, very glad that we have a bona fide battle-tested war hero on our side. John Kerry knows how important this election is for the soul of America and he will never surrender.

[Ravenseye]

52. Exactly

And there are plenty of other ways.

Who knows what the future could hold. I'm sure everyone can imagine different ways.

[Kingshakabobo]

80. Blackwater Security. Don't forget about them.

They are very well armed and funded thanks to chimpy. They are based right here in the states and very right wing. They figure prominently in my own personal nightmare scenario

[realcountrymusic]

48. First he'd have to

bring 'em back from Iraq

rcm

[Ravenseye]

54. Hasn't he been bringing troops back from germany and korea?

They claim it's to have more of a rest time for the troops abroad, but what if it's part of the long range plan to have certain stacked units in the US in order to keep control?

[realcountrymusic]

60. Not yet

That's been floated as the "plan" to try to assuage pissed off military families

It's years away

RCM

[RoyalWickedness]

12. Torches and pitchforks

if need be.

[The empressof all]

13. I have similar concerns

I believe Mr. Kerry will be in the fight of his life after his election. I also believe that JK is totally up for this battle and will not surrender. We have to trust him and be ready to stand with him.

[Vanje]

14. Make arrangements for the well-being my pets and livestock....

....then go to where ever I need to go in order to die or be imprisoned, for my country.

[mitchum]

15. A good time for a revolution is when the army is somewhere else

[Bleacher Creature]

16. Let's take things one step at a time

I'm not saying that your concerns aren't valid--they are. We just need to do everything that we can now to ensure that the first partof your statement comes true before we can worry about the second.

[Ravenseye]

56. True

I was just posing a hypothetical. I've found in the past that when unusual and particularly dangerous situations arise, it's good to have thought about it a bit before hand. Not to necessarily make any plans or anything, just to consider things. To think and mentally be ready to a dramatic shift.

[Bleacher Creature]

71. No doubt

I wouldn't put it beneath the other side and it's always good to be ready.

[Vincardog]

17. The first thing to do is have a GENERAL STRIKE. Every one stays home from

work and meets at the town square. That is where you have speeches and work the crowd. :puffpiece: After dark you hand out the torches and crack out the beer. :toast: about midnight you get the crowd real excited and then go storm the castle. Don't you watch the movies? :think:

[htuttle]

19. If the people of Venezuela could reverse a coup...

...I would HOPE that the people of the United States could as well. If we can't, we don't deserve the country we've inherited.

[readmylips]

20. Storm the Bastard to Death....

We will defend our Nation agaist the bush nazis.

[951]

21. You meant "Stone" right?

By the time we scare him into a bunker Kerry can just walk in and take power (ahhh how I wish it could end that way) :P

[Shadow30]

22. We take the country back....

....if we must we will revolt against such a power grab.If that means fighting to reclaim this nation than so be it,terrible prospect that it is.Living under some Bush run dictatorship is beyond unacceptable,it would be the end of civilization as we know it.

[TankLV]

23. Restore Democracy. Revolt.

Restore Democracy By Force.

[kentuck]

24. Again? Never happen.

There would be a revolution.

[DinahMoeHum]

26. Then, as far as I am concerned, "the sky's the limit".

Make of that what you will.

:nuke:

[Unstuck In Time]

27. Fill the streets, shut the country down...

... in defense of our Constitution.

[Carni]

28. We all strike

Refuse to work, refuse to pay our bills...Bush's "haves" may keep the markets flowing but the bankertellers and clerks and service people are the ones that keep this society functioning.

If the majority of the populace refuses to do anything things will not function very well.

[WI_DEM]

31. Fight like hell

[endnote]

32. What do we do is Godzilla appears in NYC?

That is another, equally plausible, scenario to think about...

[Blue-Jay]

36. Good thing you didn't say Tokyo.

Because that really is plausible!

:crazy:

[demwing]

39. BULLSHIT

Giant, reptillian, fire breathing monsters don't exist.

Obsessed men who believe that they have a divine calling to rule, who maintain rule through lies, violence, and fear, and who justify their sins by pretending those sins are virtues are all too common.

[endnote]

58. Right. And they end up in the nuthouse...

[Ravenseye]

61. Right. It can't happen here...

..just what they thought in Germany 70 years ago.

To compare someone seizing political power which has happened countless times in history, to a science fiction movie monster is ludicrous.

Say it's not very plausible. Cause I don't think it is. Say it's improbable.

To say it's completely insane, is in itself delusional and dangerous behavior.

[qwlauren35]

33. Um....

I think it would rip the country apart...

But I also think that the vast majority of Republicans, including his father, would advise him against it.

[tabasco]

34. The military would not support a coup. Period.

Stop thinking of the military as a reactionary right-wing tool. It's not.

[flobee1kenobi]

42. somewhat of a stretch, but.....

I saw(possibly in this forum)that someone suggested everyone that votes for Kerry get a gun licence. Not a gun, but a licence for one.
Just the thought of Dems. with firearms should scare the hell out of em':tinfoilhat:

[Ravenseye]

63. What if...

...the military is told that the country was attacked, the election was made invalid by interference by terrorists, and that we were all in danger.

They shut down communcation, with some story about intelligence leaks and spys for the terrorists in the military, and cut off internet access....

what if they control what the military hears and sees?

[ciaobox]

37. The U.N. Would intervene...

We are also forgetting that we are not alone. U.N. sanctions against the U.S. would be fast and furious. Let's say Bush had 25% popular support for his Coup. Under hardcore U.N. sanctions that would probably drop to about 10%. If sanctions didn't work, the military would split and we, the people, could easily appeal to Europe and China to intercede militarily if neccessary.

[UpsideDownFlag]

90. the UN would intercede? China and Europe would help?

the UN would intercede with what army?

China and Europe's economies, thanks to globalization, depend on the US economies. we are all deeply invested in each other. i doubt they'd support sanctions.

[MallRat]

38. If Bush loses legal challenges, he would step aside.

If he attempted to hold onto power through some kind of military or legislative fiat, it would utterly destroy the Republican party.

Gore conceded defeat when he lost in the Supreme Court. If Bush didn't do the same, it would invoke a Constitutional crisis unlike any we have ever known... and the Republican Party would be on the losing end of it.

-MR

[Ravenseye]

64. Even if...

the legitimate election is declared invalid by a 5-4 court?

[ciaobox]

40. Plus, we are forgetting the CIA

The CIA hates Bush. He pinned the Iraq war on them and outed a top NOC (bringing down a whole network of covert ops). Under a coup, Bush would have to move into a bunker permanently lest the CIA unleash a turkey day turkey shoot on his ass.

[liberal N proud]

41. I think at that point the world will be knocking on our door steps

It would be clearly visible to all the world that a coup has taken place and they will not stand for a permanent bush regime.
But things would go to hell inside the borders really fast.

[Ranec]

44. Man the barricades

I promised my wife that if Bush cancels the election that I would be in the streets demonstrating until change happens.

If the law won't protect us, then we have to protect ourselves.

If they ignore the constitution, then we have to show them that the country won't stand for it. Millions of people demonstrating across the country cannot be ignored.

:grr:

[Gyre]

74. Be prepared for heavy weather

Cause they're not going to be fucking around if they steal the show. They've got much better crowd control stuff now than they did during Vietnam.

Gyre

[Emboldened Chimp]

45. Seize it back n/t

[SnowGoose]

46. A valueless US dollar would stop it pretty fast.

The US dollar has value (such as it is) because people are willing to buy them or accept them in trade for goods and services. If there were a coup in the US, investors and central banks all over the world would start dumping dollars (the value of which is largely linked to the government's perceived stability), causing the value to further plummet.

Everything would stop so fast, the motion sickness alone would knock us over.

Sorry to be such a naysayer, but "t'aint gonna happen." None of those who hold or control billions of dollars would want to see it happen, so it's not going to.

[realcountrymusic]

50. Read my lips

I no pay taxes.

rcm

[SeanQ]

53. Get encryption software installed now

Learn how to use it.

[Nordic]

55. we have the Constitutional right to throw him out forcibly

the founding fathers already thought of this.

We'd just have to have the balls to do it.

Something I doubt Americans have. If they did, he'd already be in jail.

[aint_no_life_nowhere]

57. The only way I could see that happening

is if there were a major catastrophe, such as the detonation of a thermonuclear device in a population center. Otherwise, Bush would never get the Generals to back his coup if Kerry were elected President. Under normal circumstances, the Generals would automatically shift their allegiance to Kerry upon his election as the Commander-In-Chief. But the military may hesitate if the very life of the Republic were in jeopardy. I'm sure if one nuke went off, the cry would be that others will follow and that we can't afford the confusion of a transition in power in the executive branch, with a new Secretary of Defense and Attorney General.

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

59. Please, they can't even control Iraq...let alone America

[mr_du04]

65. I seriously doubt this could ever happen

If chimpy tried to hold on to power the secret service would drag him kicking and screaming back to crawford.

[Maiden England]

70. If * had been planning on this being an option

I doubt he'd have let the assault weapons ban expire.

[Renew Deal]

72. Here's a fun one.

What if the House refuses to accept the result of the electoral college?

[dansolo]

73. The miltary will not support Bush

If they actually attempted a military coup, I suspect that most of the armed forces would act against Bush. Remember, their oath is to the Constitution, and any soldier participating in a coup would be guilty of treason.

[leftofthedial]

76. then we literally go underground

and become insurgents

[GalleryGod]

77. Lock N' Load!

Simple. Take Your Country Back!:nuke:

[spanone]

78. Declare him an enemy combatant throw him in Abu Gharib

[Cats Against Frist]

81. Depends

If it's gonna be a throw down, I'm ready.

If we're going to do a slow down, I'm going to buy enough gas to get me to Central Illinois, where my plot 'o land is, and I'm going to shoot and milk some of my neighbor's cows, make some jerky, dig a well, and hunt rabbits for a while.

I don't have to buy ANYTHING except ammo, lighter fluid and matches.

Before that point, though, I'm going to have to raid a pharmacy and get a two-year supply of Wellbutrin. :)

[gordianot]

83. Get ready.

[gordianot]

84. Get ready

Be prepared

[LowerManhattanite]

85. I didn't want to post this...

...but I had a nightmare about this very thing a few days ago. I had been up watching "The Sum of All Fears" (The latest Tom Clancy "Jack Ryan" vehicle with Ben Affleck as a too-young Ryan) with it's doomsday scenario for the Washington area and wild internal white house dealings (James Cromwell played the president who's basically airborne in AF-One running that as the White House as the D.C. area had just been hit with a small nuclear attack.) and yes, I had a vodka/tonic before turning in for the night.

My nightmare was that Kerry won by three points, but that Bush would not turn over the reins as he felt it would create a "power vacuum" and endanger the nation. The news was covering it 'ala early "Nightline" episodes with "Crisis at Pensylvania Avenue—Day 26" and so on. The country was split as hard-core freepers backed the intransigence while progressives became enraged. Congress was gridlocked and then...a simple speech from a capitol page broadcast on the news broke the dam when he uttered "This ain't America" and quit on camera.

Public opinion turned against the "administration" and a large march to Washington took place—millions strong! Then the congress turned against Bush and the electoral college electors gave Kerry a massive landslide as even they realized giving Bush any credibility was a bad signal. Bush still wouldn't go and he hunkered down with Cheney and Rumsfeld—everyone else in the cabinet sort of abandoned him. They cut all power to the White House and Kerry was forced to set up an alternate White House not far away for the transition. The army would not step in to remove him, but they would not follow his orders to protect him from those who would remove him. And almost everyone (save for the public) was loathe to remove him out of fear of how bad that would look to other countries. And then January 20th rolled around and the Kerry inaugural took place with all going as usual save for a trip to the darkened White House. It would eventually take Bush senior and Jeb to talk him out of the place—which he would leave in denim shirtsleeves, Cheney on a gurney and Rumsfeld looking freshly pressed and as if it were November 3rd. Bush would try to mount a few legal challenges to the Kerry election, but his crazed intransigence over two months would give the suits no traction.

And then I woke up—totaally disoriented because the dream wasn't wacky/farfetched like a flying or shtupping Halle Berry AND Beyoncé at the same time dream. It just had a certain meanderingly, maddeningly mundane and rooted in reality feel to it.

I wanted to post that when I had the dream but...damned if I thought it was a totally weird thing to have run through my mind. I guess I wasn't alone. :)

[BMJ]

86. LOL! A fun read :)

Funny to think about * sitting alone in a darkened White House to stew in his own failure.

[BMJ]

87. *double post*

sorry

[UpsideDownFlag]

88. i would hope we wouldn't be foolish enough to discuss it here. nt

[Zorra]

89. DLF.

[troublemaker]

91. The military would not hesitate to remove Bush

[elf]

92. Banana Republic

:scared: