Is anyone else disgusted by what Catholic leaders are doing?

[battleknight24]

First, right off the bat, let me make the point that I am not anti-catholic in any way... I was raised catholic, but I have not gone to church in several years...

It really angers me that Catholic leaders are getting involved in this election and practically telling people that it is a sin to vote for Kerry because he supports abortion rights and stem cell research... what about the Chimp's views on the Death Penalty? The fact that he got us into an unnecessary war that has claimed the lives of over a thousand U.S. troops, not to mention a large number of innocent Iraqi civilians?...

And if Roe vs. Wade were overturned, what would happen? Dangerous back alley abortions and, for the wealthy, a plane ticket to a foreign country where the procedure could be done legally.

Hypothetically, what if a woman, who is an atheist, is raped by a relative, and then discovers that she could die giving birth to this child?

Hey, I know... just pray... have faith in God... oh, you're not Catholic?... wait, you don't even believe in god?

I don't mean to offend anyone... this shit just boils my blood... I don't think that I am going to church for a long time...


Peace,


ON EDIT: What are some other fallacies you can find with this whole notion of voting for Kerry being a sin because of abortion and other issues?

[stopbush]

1. JK's victory will only confirm their growing irrelevance to modern life.

Pathetic hate mongers.

[JohnnyCougar]

2. I have been disgusted by the Catholic Church for years

And yes, I am a Catholic. People wonder why it's the RW fundys that go to Church every Sunday, and the liberal Christians barely attend. Gee, I wonder. When the Church makes Ignorant statements so often, it's no wonder right-minded people are driven away. Every time the Church spews this kind of crap they lose what little moral authority they have left in my eyes.

[gavodotcom]

5. self-delete

I'm dumb.

[opiate69]

7. Nevermind.....

[factcheck]

3. Recovering Catholic

That is how I have always referred to the religion I was baptized into as a baby. No offense against Catholics; it is just not for me.

My wife and I were discussing this issue this evening.

Don't get me wrong, I believe a religious leader has every right to say that he/she could not vote for one candidate or another because that candidate supports something that is against his/her religion.

However, to stand at the pulpit and tell members of a congregation that it is a SIN if they vote for that candidate. I am sorry, but that is wrong on so many levels.

The government has no place pushing religion on us or prohibiting us from practicing our chosen religion. Therefore, religions should not intrude into the workings of our government (that includes elections - especially!).

[opiate69]

4. Yep...Full-friggin-page ad in USA Today....

It boggles my mind to think that the Catholic church, with all of it's continuing problems, can still attempt to pass itself off as some sort of moral authority. I think the time is waaaay past due to start taxing these churches. If they won't respect the establishment clause, then why the fuck should the government?

[incapsulated]

6. When I first heard...

About Kerry being turned away from attending mass months ago, I went ballistic. When some Bishops defended this position, all I could think was; this religion is on a suicide mission to pull this shit after all the child abuse cases. Who the fuck do they think they are?

[Zorbet55]

8. You bet, many of us are disgusted.

This is what I say to the Catholic Church: We don't agree with your practice of child molestation as acceptable doctrine nor do we agree with your cover-ups. We also resent your historical abuse of power in Europe, where your church stripped the individual of personal liberty and thought, tortured, maimed, stole, and summarily put people to death for disobedience of your superstitions.

[aquart]

9. My mother's favorite cousin died "from a fall down the stairs."

That was the euphemism for a botched abortion.

Anti-abortion is pro-white slavery. It assures a steady supply of desperate young girls forced to leave homes, family, friends, and all natural protections for secret places where they are prey. Anti-abortion means endless streams of fresh prostitutes for jaded old men the age of state legislators.

The morality of anti-abortion laws is the morality of filthy old men who can't touch a young girl without paying her pimp. THAT's the morality they're talking about. And never let them frame it any other way.

[RafterMan]

10. Remember...

It's just a faction of the Catholic church, as far as I can tell. The pope seemed downright frosty towards Bush, so I don't think this is the whole story.

The disappointing thing is that we haven't heard much of an opposing view from other leaders here in the US. A Catholic theological battle played out on the pages of USA Today would be something to behold.

If it's any consolation, US Catholics have a reputation for being rebellious independents when it comes to church dictates. I have faith that they will view the election in its fullest broad spectrum and not through the narrow viewpoint advocated by these people.

[gauguin57]

11. RECOVERED Catholic here.

One who will not set foot in that f***ing church ever again except for a wedding or funeral. And I was a good Catholic right up until the day I stopped going to the church. It didn't scar me for life -- my personal experience was fine (except that I still wake up screaming that I'm going to hell for reading the Playboy Party Jokes).

But the way that church does business. God damn.

To those of you who are true-believer Catholics, whose religion comforts you and helps you on your spiritual journey, I'm not busting on you. And I've met my share of good priests -- who truly have the welfare of the least of their brethren as their life force.

However, the structure, the leadership, the rules and regs. of that church are socially irresponsible and need a massive, massive overhaul. For a church that worships a woman, they treat women like absolute shit. No women leadership in the church? I say bollocks to that. That crap should have gone out the window decades ago.

No condoms, even though half of Africa is dying of AIDS? No birth control for anyone anytime? Denying homosexuals the Eucharist? No abortions under any circumstances -- even the most dire or fatal? A bunch of old, celibate men making the sexual rules for women and couples? BOLLOCKS!! Perverse, too!

And choosing to support a man like Bush -- a man with the blood of thousands and thousands of needlessly dead soldiers on his hands, a man who worships nothing but money and people with money ... for the church leaders to support a man like that over a fellow Catholic who seeks to better the lives of the least of his brothers ... Well, that's just plain bullshit. It's evil, I tell you.

I wish that church would implode. It's misguided at best, thoroughly corrupt at worst.

[WildEyedLiberal]

12. I'm a recent Catholic convert...

... drawn to the Church because it seemed to me, of all the major Christian denominations, to best represent the mission of Christ: compassion for the poor and downtrodden, social justice, and charity. Other churches to me seemed more intent on proselytizing and converting than actually DOING the work commanded of them by Christ.

So, not a year after I join but the sex abuse scandal hits the fan, and then this shit with Kerry. Needless to say I've become very jaded. I haven't lost faith in Christ, because I'm sure He is as disgusted as I am; but I cannot take seriously the moral commandments proscribed by old men in cassocks who encase themselves in their ivory towers and cathedrals, separate from any notion of reality, and who proclaim to be privy to the secret knowledge of God. They have stonewalled and defended priests accused of molesting, raping, abusing, and destroying countless children, and yet they have the audacity to suggest that an upstanding man like John Kerry doesn't deserve communion? Is it truly a greater sin to vote against a ban on abortion because there is no stipulation attached providing for the safety of the mother than it is to rape small children? And even worse, most pro-lifers justify this conclusion by saying, "we need to protect the innocent and helpless!" Until they are forced to perform oral sex on Father Smith, anyway.

Amazingly enough, I consider myself mostly pro-life (yes, I am female, by the way). I do not like the idea of abortion, and I agree with Church doctrine that says life begins at conception. However, I understand the point John Kerry is making when he argues that the legality and morality of abortion shouldn't be confused, and I also largely agree with him. Abortion may be wrong, but legal or not, it's going to happen. Making something legal doesn't mean it's right or moral; it means that it is something that, if not legal, might be more dangerous than it is, and which should be regulated by authority. I am furious at Catholic leaders for their de facto excommunication of John Kerry, and for all the implications that carries. If they start denying communion to everyone who sins, the lines at Mass are going to be pretty damn short. I guess all the rapist priests in prison now can go, since apparently they are, according to the bishops, "in need of understanding and forgiveness" instead of condemnation. Interesting how they apply the principles of Christ when it suits them.

Sorry about the long post; I didn't realize how lengthy it was going to be until I started. Guess I had a lot of get off my chest.

[Francine Frensky]

21. Congratulations on joining the church; I'm in a somewhat similar

position myself, although a lifelong catholic. My position on abortion closely mirrors JK's, and yours, as you explained very well in your post.

And here's where I think the church's two biggest errors are:

1. When Arnold Schwarz. or Guilliani or Ridge run for pres. in '08, pro-choice catholic republicans, what will the church say then??? How hypocritical will they look to be silent then?

2. Today 7 of the 9 supremes were appointed by republicans, the congress, senate, and white house are all repub., why hasn't anything happened YET???? Obviously, the republicans find this more valuable as a wedge issue to divide catholics, not a top issue they really want to see go one way. So even if bush is elected, will we really see any change in the abortion law? No, that would eliminate one piece of their strategy.

It really disgusts me to see the church be used as a tool of the republican party.

[necso]

13. It ticks me off too.

These "religious leaders" are going after Kerry because he is tolerant and believes in separation of Church and State -- that is, for what he believes. After all, Senator Kerry isn't going to do any of these things -- he just isn't going to stop other people from doing them. So, what, is a good Catholic supposed to try to impose his views on other people? Why don't they just bring back the Inquisition.

Now at same time these "religious leaders" don't seem to be going after Bush for what he does and has done -- or what he believes.

This is simply hypocrisy and intolerance -- and obsession and pride. These so called religious men have reduced their "creed" to a handful of political issues with the goal of imposing their beliefs on others in law. They had better hope that there is no Hell.

And Catholics ought to know better than to align themselves with the Catholic-hating fundies. -- Have they simply forgotten all those years of oppression by the Protestant majority? Separation of Church and State protects Catholics, just as it protects all minority religions -- and all nonbelievers.

Wouldn't surprise me, though, if these "religious leaders" had a few skeletons in their closets. Wouldn't surprise me at all.

[LittleClarkie]

14. As one guy at HQ pointed out

When did Bush ever say he was going to overturn Roe vs. Wade? What has he ever really done for the pro-life movement but give it lip-service?

[Francine Frensky]

22. It's their ONLY wedge issue with catholics; of COURSE they don't want it

overturned.

Abortion is the goose that laid the golden egg. 7 of the 9 supremes RIGHT NOW were appointed by repubs, the house is republican, the senate is republican, the white house is republican...... and after four years of this, we have seen no movement at all toward outlawing abortion????

If the pro-lifers would open their eyes, they would see they are being taken for a ride by the evangelicals who could care less about making abortion illegal.

[DemBones DemBones]

15. In any organization as big as the Catholic Church,

there are bound to be some people who do and say things you don't like. (If you were going to church, you'd find some people in your parish you agreed with and some you disagreed with.)

On the voting issue, some bishops are like Bush* and "don't do nuance."

My bishop, who happens to be one of the few who has said Communion should be denied to pro-choice Catholic politicians, has also issued a letter that explains that it is a sin for a Catholic to vote for a pro-choice politician BECAUSE he is pro-choice, but (and this is very important)

a Catholic may vote for a pro-choice politician "in order to limit a greater evil, that is, to restrict in so far as possible the evil that another candidate might do if elected".

The part I put in bold is what I understand Cardinal Ratzinger/the Vatican/ Pope John Paul II have also said, and what my informed conscience agrees with. I'm not going to worry about the bishops who take a different position on this, because I think they are mistaken and I don't think they are going to be convincing a lot of potential Kerry voters to vote for Bush*. Catholics are divided over this election, just like all other Americans.

Peace.

[Princess Turandot]

16. Ratzinger even put that in writing..

several months ago, and it was only briefly covered by the US media a few weeks ago. The media is happier with stories abt the relatively small number of bishops who have announced that voting for a pro-choice candidate is a 'unilateral' mortal sin. He basically told the bishops that doing that was not consistent with the Church's position.

I believe that the Ratzinger document was issued after * went to the Vatican and directly asked Ratzinger to tell US Catholics to vote for him. (According to news reports, Ratzinger made no reply to that request, at all.) I'm glad to hear that your bishop, even after making his own views known, did was he was supposed to do and sent out a letter with your bold-face quote.

People need to keep in mind that with Catholics making up more than 50% of the 'Christians' in the US, and with Americans identifying themselves as Christians exceeding 80%, a hell of a lot of Catholics must have voted for Bill Clinton in both of his races, his views on abortion not withstanding.

Here is some survey data from a 2002 Pew Research Report on religion in America.The first number is the % of people polled who think churches should endorse candidates, while the second represents the percentage who think that they should not. In this survey, almost 75% of Catholics polled said that they should not.

Church Endorsement of Candidates?

Should Should not
% %

Religious Affiliation

White Mainline Protestant 14 78
White Catholic 21 73

White Evan. Protestant- High commitment 41 48
White Evan. Protestant-Low commitment 20 74
Black Protestant 34 58

http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf

The overall document is somewhat interesting.

IMO, this is a tempest in a tea-pot, brought on in part by the media's belief that things that upset folks about the Catholic Church draw attention.

[necso]

18. The numbers that I have seen

for the percentage of Catholics in this country tend to cluster in the 22% - 27% range. I have seen loose estimates that range up to about 32%.

The percentage of Protestants tends to cluster around 50%.

Catholics are a minority religion.

Or show me some good data to the contrary.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. Protestant is not one denomination

Catholics are the largest christian group in this country. Protestants are not one group or denomination and NONE of the protestant denominations come close to the numbers of catholics.

[Cheswick2.0]

24. nice rationalization

Let's put it in simple terms. The catholic church in my area is actively helping bush get elected on two issues, abortion and homosexuality. They are also actively working to keep people like Santorum in office. They tell their parishoners that there are degrees of sin and abortion and homosexuality are greater sins than unjust war and the death penalty. They are a legitimate target for criticism and activism.

[REP]

17. I've Been Disgusted By That Corrupt Organization for Years

I am always amazed that anyone thinks that organization or its leaders has any moral authority, given its long history of ignoring its own rules when it was expedient for it to do so. Given all the stories of how children were raped and their rapists protected, the 'pro-life' stance takes on the sinister gleam of assuring a steady stream of victims.

[bklyncowgirl]

19. Pope John Paul II has said voting pro choice is OK.

The Pope has said recently that it is acceptable in the Church for Catholics to vote for a pro-choice candidate provided that abortion is not the only issue the Catholic voter is deciding on.

In other words, if a candidates positions on social justice, peace and the death penalty comply with the Church's teachings and his/her position on abortion does not, a practicing Catholic may vote for a pro-choice candidate.

These Bishops are clearly off the reservation. I would love to hear the Pope call them on it.

[markus]

20. The Church in ND is solidly behind the anti-gay marriage amendment

which is a transparent ploy to boost the GOP voter turnout.

This is just the latest for me, and I am about at the point where I no longer consider myself Catholic except as an historic artifact of my upbrining.

[davhill]

23. Remember Bishops respond to pressure

A group of us here in Florida met with our Bishop when he first came out with a blatantly pro-Republican statement. We have also been writing letters to the editors of Catholic publications. Even if you believe that abortion is the greatest evil in the world today, you can still vote for Kerry. Kerry has never aborted anyone. He is merely against throwing women and their medical caretakers in jail again. Abortion decreased dramatically during the years that Clinton was president.

[Francine Frensky]

27. Good economic conditions will lessen abortion

TRUE pro-lifers know that abortions will never go away, even if they are illegal. But if you make the conditions that cause abortions, like poverty, incest, rape, less likely, then abortions WILL decline.

Cutting after-school programs and child-care programs increases abortions.

[davhill]

30. We have to pound these

Facts into the pro-life voters. Talking about womans rights is like talking a vegan into buying a big mac.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. No one in my Parish has told me voting for Kerry is a sin

:shrug:

[PA Democrat]

28. Local Catholic college would not permit an internship with Kerry campaign

here because of the bishop's policy about supporting candidates who were not "pro-life".

I have lost my respect for the church, but not my faith. In the last election, our parish put out a "voter's guide" which listed candidates' positions on only 3 issues- abortion, school vouchers, and school prayer. This was after that same church refused to take our disabled child in their preschool program even though we said we would supply a trained aide.

That was when I stopped attending services. My husband still goes to mass, but has stopped contributing financially to the church. I cannot speak for the church as a whole, but our diocese is completely out of touch with the true impact of Bush's policies and how they contradict the teachings of Christ.

[lolamio]

29. I think you'd be surprised at how many Catholic voters will vote for Kerry

This is merely anecdotal, but I am from a large Irish/Catholic family and happen to have a sister who is a devout, pro-life Catholic. She is, in fact, looking past Kerry's stance on stem cell research and abortion, and is instead looking at the bigger picture of the mess that our current President has left us. She will be voting for Kerry as will the rest of my very Catholic family. I think there are more Catholics out there similar to my sister than a lot of people realize. The bishops may like to think that Catholics will be one issue voters in this election, but they are dead wrong.

[Dem Agog]

31. I've been disgusted by Catholic leaders quite a bit...

"Look the other way while we repeatedly sexually violate and molest innocent young boys, oh and Kerry is a SINNER!"

There is a special waiting room in Hell for these scam artists.

[DemocracyInaction]

32. All "in laws" are Catholic

and interestingly they hold one opinion: that the republicans must have crossed the Catholic Church's palm with big money. They say "it's always about the money in our church...always". Don't think that all Catholics are sucking this crap up. They know.