Bush Vs. Christian Values....help me make a list or point me to one please

[masmdu]

I have a friend who is undecided about whom to vote for. I have told her why I'm voting for Kerry and she sees my points.

She, however, is hung up on the notion that Bush is deserving of her vote because he is a Christian.

I think a way to persued her to vote for Kerry is to show her how UN-Christian Bush is...Thing is I don't really know squat about what Christian values are...

Please help me define core Christian values and present specific examples of how Bush has shown himself to be contrary to these.

My guess is doing this will be just what is needed to help her see the wisdom of voting for Kerry.

Thanks!

(if something like this already exist online please link to it...TIA)

[atreides1]

1. Tell Her

That Hitler was a Christian too.

[muchacho]

9. true

[physioex]

2. Ask her...

Who would Jesus bomb? --snicker :evilgrin:

[Shoeempress]

3. Also point out Kerry is a catholic, so it's just a choice between

Christians

[cynatnite]

4. Just because he's a christian doesn't mean he ought to be pres n/t

[Shoeempress]

10. I'm an atheist, and would prefer a president who was one, but being a

realist, get the vote anyway you can that's legal.

[cynatnite]

13. What's the deal with being a Christian in order to be pres?

I don't get that. I prefer a pres who's more into taking care of this country than god. Religion or lack there of should not have anything to do with it.

He could worship a fucking tree for all I care. Do the job and do it well. That's what I want.

[NAO]

5. Jesus on Social Policy

Christians who buy the entire Republican Agenda, which includes brutal cuts to subsitence programs such as food and heating assistance, ought to consider the this passage from scripture: Matthew 25:32-46

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The meaning of this passage is crystal clear. Some may attempt to excuse their voting to cut social programs by saying that the passage refers only to personal giving to the poor, not to state organized giving.

I would remind them that Jesus took a very dim view of the Pharasees, who used legally constructed rationalizations to obey the ‘Letter of the Law’ while completely missing ‘the Spirit of The Law’.

I would also ask these people if they are genuinely comfortable voting against social programs, when according to Matthew 25:45, to refuse to help someone by providing sustenance is morally equivalent to refusing to help Jesus.

How would you like to tell the Son of God that you voted against welfare because you thought it was about freeloaders, and OF COURSE you would have voted differently if you knew that Jesus Christ Himself was the welfare applicant?

Well, He would remind you that He did tell you that he is the welfare applicant in His own teachings in the above passage. (verses 40 and 45)

[Free2BMe]

6. Peace I leave you ...peace I give...

this was the big message which Christ left us as well as loving our enemies...we are to teach by example and force is not an option... Also, caring for the least amoung us is something we have lost sight of while flying our flag...the least amoung us are now going without food, healthcare,education because we are intent on "killing" for power...There is no way the Christian right can advocate for this man and still be Christian.

[seabeyond]

7. christian value, female.....this one gets me the most in bush

1988 at the republican convention i believe a reporter asked bush what he and his father talks about when they arent talking politics.......pussy, was his reply

google george bush pussy 1988

being a wife and female, my view on this, the man sat at a dinner table looking a wife and two daughters in the eyes, yet was able to make a comment like that. have been grossed out by the asshole since. i dont know a single man that is respectful to female that would ever say that, and the place it puts the women in his life, the hugest yuk

also the carla faye tucker execution, she is a born again and many were trying to save her. bush to the astonishment of those in the room went to a high whining voice and said dont kill me, dont kill me........imitating the woman in a smirk and stupid ass laugh

in the scheme of things these are little but telling for me in the character of who this man is

[nostalgicaboutmyfutr]

8. here are some...

1100 soldiers killed in an UNJUST war (though shalt not kill)
14000 Iraqis killed in an UNJUST war (though shalt not kill)
~250 killed in Texas (though shalt not kill)
15000 soldiers evacuated due to non-combat injuries in an UNJUST war

He is a liar (Thou shalt not lie)

War for Oil (Though shalt not covet thy neighbors possesions)

"God speaks to me" (false prophet)

there are others

[RobertSeattle]

11. Don't Tell me Bush is a Christian, let me figure it out for myself...

... Oh, yeah, he doesn't ACT very Christian.

[movonne]

12. Do Christians believe in killing thousands of people in Iraq, for no

reason.Do the Christians believe that you give to the rich and take from the poor....and probably hundreds more reasons, but to tired to list them all now...but anyone who would vote because bush is a Christian and Kerry is not are crazy anyway. Kerry is more of a Christian than bush. These Catholic Bishops are going after him on abortion but it is alright to go to an unjust war, killing thousands...I also feel that these Republican thugs have probably have something on these Bishops (child abuse) and are blackmailing them.

[classof56]

14. Ask her this:

Why does Bush, who claims to be born again and says he prays to Jesus every morning, feel the need to lie? Repeatedly, stupidly lie. "I did not know Ken Lay" (tons of evidence to counter that), "I did not know Ahmad Chalabi" (huh?), the list goes on. Most importantly: Why does this fine Christian man not stand up before God and the world and denounce the lies told on his behalf by those supporting him--the campaign ads are full of them--and why does he not resoundlingly rebuke those who lie about and engage in character assassination of those who oppose him, his administration and their policies? Why does he not express some distress, sorrow, compassion, regret about the thousands of soldiers and Iraqis who are dying daily in this terrible war? Why can he not dredge up one mistake he has made when his record is clearly filled with them? While he says the Bible is his favorite book, has anyone ever heard him quote without a script in front of him one verse of scripture?

I could go on, but maybe these questions alone might give a Christian a reason to seriously consider whether this "fine Christian man" is worthy of being our president. I am a born-again fundamentalist Christian who has not until recently doubted Bush's claim regarding his moment of salvation. But as the Bible says, "By their fruits you will know them (believers in Christ)", and as Jesus himself said, "Wisdom is proved right by her actions" (Matt. 11:19). I now seriously question Bush's claim as a man of faith, for the reasons I listed above, and I think any clear-thinking Christian would be now also have serious doubts. We could ask ourselves, "What would Jesus do?", a simplistic question, perhaps, but given what the Bible says about Jesus, his life, his ministry, his message and his ultimate sacrifice, I think the answer is clear: "Jesus would not do what Bush is doing, and he would do what Bush is not."

I have only one main prayer right now:

DEFEAT BUSH!!

[WoodrowFan]

15. ask her

read this and ask her how Bush's policies fit? (hint, they DON'T!)

Matthew 25:31-46

31 ‘When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on the throne of his glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats, 33and he will put the sheep at his right hand and the goats at the left. 34Then the king will say to those at his right hand, “Come, you that are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 35for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.” 37Then the righteous will answer him, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? 38And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? 39And when was it that we saw you sick or in prison and visited you?” 40And the king will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me.”a 41Then he will say to those at his left hand, “You that are accursed, depart from me into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; 42for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not give me clothing, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.” 44Then they also will answer, “Lord, when was it that we saw you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not take care of you?” 45Then he will answer them, “Truly I tell you, just as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.” 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.’

[Lorien]

16. Glad to see this thread

my mom is a fundie-a lifelong dem who voted for * last time around, and may again this time (in Ohio, no less). she won't read newspapers or watch the news-she just has "faith" in *, and it's not up for discussion. I really want to make one last attempt to get through to her before the election, so I hope our fellow DUers can make a good case.

I seem to remember one with a website; it might have been www.liberalslikechrist.org ?

[noamnety]

17. The principles of Bush's church

Bush is (claims to be) a member of the united methodist church. So the place to look at how his values differ from his church's would be www.umc.org.

UMC: Water, air, soil, minerals, energy resources, plants, animal life, and space are to be valued and conserved because they are God's creation and not solely because they are useful to human beings. - http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1701 (They elaborate further in subsections)

Bush: http://www.nrdc.org/bushrecord/

UMC: In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures.
http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1732

Bush: Opposes all abortion

UMC: We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life.

Bush: Opposes late term abortion without an exception for terminal deformities of the fetus.

UMC: Health care is a basic human right.

Bush: Is willing to accept a huge percentage of people not having health care, because the tax cut for the rich is more important.

UMC: We believe private and public economic enterprises are responsible for the social costs of doing business, such as employment and environmental pollution, and that they should be held accountable for these costs. http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1736

Bush: Has taken away accountability for corporations.

UMC: We support measures that would reduce the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few. We further support efforts to revise tax structures and to eliminate governmental support programs that now benefit the wealthy at the expense of other persons. http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1736

Bush: Largest tax cuts for the rich, even as others are losing their jobs, and losing their health care.

UMC: We hold governments responsible for the protection of the rights of the people to free and fair elections and to the freedoms of speech, religion, assembly, communications media, and petition for redress of grievances without fear of reprisal; to the right to privacy; and to the guarantee of the rights to adequate food, clothing, shelter, education, and health care.

Bush: Has he done any of this?

UMC: The use of detention and imprisonment for the harassment and elimination of political opponents or other dissidents violates fundamental human rights. http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=1824

Bush: Gitmo, unlimited detention without cause.

UMC: the mistreatment or torture of persons by governments for any purpose violates Christian teaching and must be condemned and/or opposed by Christians and churches wherever and whenever it occurs.

Bush: Got letters from the justice dept authorizing him to use torture. Apparently the justice dept. trumps God.

UMC: For the same reason, we oppose capital punishment and urge its elimination from all criminal codes.

Bush: all for capital punishment.

UMC: We also respect those who support the use of force, but only in extreme situations and only when the need is clear beyond reasonable doubt, and through appropriate international organizations.

Bush: Bypassed the UN vote for force in Iraq when it was clear they didn't support him.

UMC: We commit ourselves as a Church to the achievement of a world community that is a fellowship of persons who honestly love one another.

Bush: Has pushed the idea that anyone who doesn't support the US war in Iraq is an enemy (with us or against us).

You could find a ton more if you went through all the subsections on that site.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

18. My 2c

1. In the first debate, at the end, Bush said a line about having led us over the mountain, and now down into the valley. This seems like him comparing himself with Joshua (see Joshua 8 or so), which is kind of tell-tale.

2. * said himself that one reason he saw to invade Iraq was that Saddam Hussein threatened to kill his father after his father destroyed Hussein's air force. This goes against the scriptural teaching to turn the other cheek. It also goes against other teachings to keep a safe home, because the threat of Hussein was manufactured to justify the war. The threat against our home continues.

3. Recently, there have been more initiatives to computerize and assign serial numbers to individual citizen records.

4. The friendly administration of Vicente Fox is assigning RFID transmitters to personnel in the Mexican Federal Attorney General's office.

5. The Bush administration is establishing a program with Southwestern States horse rancers to RFID tag horses and train personnel for horse-tracking.

6. Bush has been deliberately misleading, not just mistaken, in his statements during the debates. While with Kerry, yes, sometimes you want to rephrase his statistics so they don't sound as dramatic. With Bush, sometimes you just better looks up the facts yourself.

7. Jesus knew that secrets are a place for crime to occur. He destroyed the set-up of the money-lenders at the Temple. Bush's vice-president met secretly with the leaders of Enron when the leaders of Enron were stealing from the citizens of Washington and California states. Bush deliberately misled us in the State of the Union Address to Congress when he stated that Britain had received intelligence that Iraq had received 'yellowcake' Uranium. Kerry has promised to do away with off-shore tax havens in nations like Bermuda, the Cayman Islands, and so on. These are the same kinds of havens that were used to obscure the Enron conspiracy which is still hurting our economy today, and to obscure the BCCI conspiracy that Kerry busted: the one that was paying for human trafficking, weapons to terrorists, loans to US corporations, and child prositution.

While Bush has needed to mince words, Kerry has been a prosecuting attorney in the Senate. Kerry has a track record of fighting a moral and defensible fight that we must fight. We do have to stop US corporate corruption, worldwide trafficking in humans, exploitation of children, and all the other crimes that John Kerry has actually been stopping so far in his career.

What does your friend find non-Christian about Kerry?

[baltodemvet]

19. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

[NEDem]

20. Check out this thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x957511

[alcuno]

21. Kerry is a Catholic and the word "catholic" means universal.

Why do you have to prove that Bush is a phoney Christian? Isn't it enough to explain that Kerry is a cradle to grave Catholic? Since when is being a Catholic not "Christian" enough? Has the world gone mad?

[Uzybone]

22. If Bush is such a Christian

Why does he hardly ever go to church?

[sandnsea]

23. Anti-abortion doesn't make one a Christian

I saw a piece about ambulances in San Diego, Republicanville. If people die in the ambulance, they take them back to the house and dump them in the living room. To save money. That's what Republicans bring us. Is that Christian? Scare the pee out of her.