Another reason not to support Clark

[bitchkitty]

"I'm pretty certain I even saw a number of Dean supporters who had originally thought of coming there to disrupt his speech, leave throwing their Dean buttons in the trash and picking up the bright blue "Clark for President" buttons to replace them."

What do you think about this statement? I specifically refer to the term "pretty certain". It renders the entire paragraph suspect. Pretty certain? In a real scenario, one would think that all she or he had to do is look in the trash for the buttons, and there would be no "pretty" about it. Why didn't they produce the buttons?

I am not "pretty" certain, but ABSOLUTELY certain that this is an attempt (and a very transparent one) to try to convince Dean supporters that his ship is sinking, and that they should hurriedly switch sides. It's despicable. Dean camp passed out flyers, true, but the facts presented on those flyers were just that, facts.

[Demonaut]

1. Uh, thats a reason???

pretty lame reason

[John_H]

9. It is when the focus is on the Movement, baby!!!

See how the focus here is on the supporters and their actions? On the impotance of buttons?!

Many Dean Activists share BK's priorities, and for that reason find her post an excellent reason not to vote for Clark.

[jmaier]

2. It's a pretty stupid post

and no evidence of any shift any thinking. Not to say that some people won't be seen changing buttons, etc. at any of the campaigns' events but they were probably not really supporters of the guy that they were dumping. Who is making this nonsense an issue?

[bitchkitty]

4. Who else?

It's posted on the Clark blog, and a supporter thought he'd try it out here. Pretty certain, if it wasn't so disgusting and transparent a tactic it would be funny.

[jmaier]

11. Ah, well

if I were to decide my support of a candidate by looking for someone with no misguided supporters, it would really, really, really NARROW the field. It's stupid behavior but not much to judge a potential nominee by.

[helleborient]

3. Usual non-campaign sanctioned garbage from supporters...

Who have little respect for a positive campaign.

I doubt Wesley Clark sanctioned this himself...so it wouldn't change anything for me about whom to support.

It's just annoying, however, those who invest so much that they literally try to destroy other campaigns instead of focus on boosting their own.

[bitchkitty]

10. I can't say how other people feel -

but every day, seeing the posts from the usual suspects, I am less and less certain that I could pull the lever for Clark. I hate Bush enough that I will, if necessary, but I'm sure there are people who will just sit it out.

Clark supporters say Dean guarantees 4 more years of Bush. I think that they themselves are striving toward that goal, intentionally or not. I despise them, and I despise their candidate.

[neverforget]

47. touche

[DoveTurnedHawk]

56. You're Incapable of Separating Supporters From the Candidate?

Wow, talk about an illogical position. But then I guess that's par for the course for many Dean supporters' position on Dean himself.

At least my detest of Howard Dean is based on Dean himself, and not what some of his supporters do or say.

DTH

[Larkspur]

85. I feel the same way about Clark that you do about Dean

The general is a faux-Dem and a civilian political wannabe, who will get steamrolled by Bush & Rove.

[Cheswick2.0]

57. after the daily early morning flounce fest

I was about to change my sig to say NBD. I may still.

[janx]

89. Why does that always happen in the morning?

It's baffling.

[mikewriter]

99. I feel you BK

I don't know if I could vote for Clark either. It sad because even if my candidate (Dean) doesn't win the nomination, as a democract, I would like to support any one of the others. But I don't know if I could do if for Clark.


Also, this thread made no sense to me.

[TexasSissy]

129. I can. In nat'l poll & in this forum, most would not vote for Dean

than any other candidate. He has more of an unlikeable factor than any other candidate. Clark is generally liked by the public. You must have your reasons for disliking Clark, but at least he's been respectful when speaking of the other candidates...the few times he's spoken of them. Edwards has been, too. Kerry's been negative, but he hasn't called anyone names. Gephardt...he's too busy courting the labor union vote to do much of anything else. Lieberman...who knows what he's been thinking lately. But he has a national track record of being a well respected and well liked politician (liked by his peers of both parties and his constituents). Sharpton is still Sharpton. And Braun is in it to hike up her speaking engagement fees, according to an article I read.

[SW FL Dem]

134. Why do you despise me?

I am a Clark supporter. I have never blasted Dean. He is not my first choice but as a rational person and a life- long Dem, my first priority is to defeat Shrub.
I have lurked here for months. Until recently, DU was a Kucinich/Dean support group. Yes, it is nice to come to place where everyone agrees with you and loves your chosen candidate. Unfortunately DU and the Dean campaign represent only a small faction of the real world. I don't appreciate being called a "Republican" by any Democrat - it is even worse when it comes from a candidate whose positions on most social issues are more conservative than mine. The problem is that we need 50 million plus voters to defeat Shrub and if Dean and his supporters keep alienating people like me, we are guaranteed another four years of Shrub.
.

[The Magistrate]

5. In Other Words, Ma'am

Politics, competently practiced. Rather more of a reason to support Gen. Clark, than otherwise: it will take a damned competent tactician and strategist to prevail over the criminals of the '00 Coup this year. Ruthlessness is a prime qualification....

[bitchkitty]

14. Ruthless in lies?

That's the position of his campaign? Okay to lie, all's fair in politics? I think you're on the wrong message board - we are supposed to support Democrats here, not lie about them.

And before you say it - Clark is not a Democrat, and I am not lying.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Larkspur]

86. He wasn't an official Democrat when he entered the Prez race

He was a registered Independent and it took a reporter to embarrass Clark enought to switch his registration. Some Democrat!

Anyway Clark has no proven record as a Democrat so I don't believe that he is one and won't vote for him.

[The Magistrate]

25. Two Small Points, Ma'am

First, you do not know the tale is a lie. You are inclined to disbelieve it, but that is something else. The manufacture of mountains from mole-hills is something of an industry here, and this is a leading example.

Second, your statement concerning Gen. Clark's political affiliation is baseless. Gen. Clark voted for President Clinton, and Vice-President Gore, who remains in fact the last elected President of the United States. During President Clinton's administration, Gen. Clark was well known to be his enthusiastic supporter, being commonly denounced as "Clinton's General" in reactionary military circles.

The sort of cheap smear you are indulging in here can do no good, and can bring some harm to the prospects of defeating the criminals of the '00 Coup in the up-coming election. You are going to have to answer for yourself, Ma'am, whether it is the defeat of the most reactionary elements of our polity in the up-coming election, or the glow of personal satisfaction that comes from being "lefter than thou", that is more important to the people and prospects of our country.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

26. Eloquent as Always, My Friend

I am thrilled to see you return to our forum. :-)

DTH

[bitchkitty]

30. Oh, please.

I'm not a magistrate (and thanks, by the way, for popping by to patronize me) but I know bullshit when I hear it. And I'm not "pretty" certain about it either, I'd bet my life on it.

I suppose I should just let his supporters hang him, but l cannot forgive what these people have done to this board, and this was the last straw. I rarely start topics, and I never start negative topics on Clark. This has now changed. I'm fighting back.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

37. Dean's Supporters Are the Ones Hanging Themselves

Both themselves, and the Democratic Party, by forwarding a guy with a very poor chance at beating Bush. Hell, I bet some of them would literally hang themselves if Dean loses, based on this lovely report of creepy behavior from the Washington Post:

Suddenly Sobelson is interrupted by a wave of slow clapping that builds in intensity, the same kind of inspiration clap the Dean staff does at the office. What will happen at midnight?

"Many Dean claps, some serious Dean clapping," says Sobelson, "chanting, singing, clapping, you never know."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A8439-2004Jan11?language=printer

As for patronizing, The Magistrate was just telling you how it is. Believe me, if he was being patronizing towards you, you'd know it.

Sorry you didn't listen to him. It's a message you really ought to hear.

DTH

[Cheswick2.0]

67. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[burning bush]

98. I won't hang anything

but a sign on my door saying,

The Democratic Party Once Protected This Country
We will Miss Her
May She Rest In Peace

[The Magistrate]

44. It Is Worth Noting, Ma'am

You do not engage in support your baseless assertiom of Republicanism. Nor is there any difference between being pretty certain, and willing to bet your life on it, save in the form of syllables used: both are assertions of belief, neither provides any reason for belief.

Your assertion supporters of Gen. Clark have done particular damage to this forum is offensive. A great proportion of Gen. Clark's supporters are old lags here, some of the most stalwart senior to me, and this place has been my resort for more than two years now. Perhaps what you really mean, Ma'am, is that those who support Gen. Clark make this place something other than an echo-chamber for peans of praise to whatever candidate you support, as do those who support a variety of other candidates. Democratic Underground is not a subsidiary of any campaign, but an open forum for debate among persons of progressive and left views, which differ more greatly than you may suppose.

In a situation where even the "front-runner" enjoys the support of no more than a fifth of the eligible primary electorate, it is nonsense to complain of open and strenuous debate over which candidate is best suited to defeat the criminals of the '00 Coup in the up-coming election.

[JNelson6563]

102. Well considering we have seen Clark supporters

kick off thread apologizing for the behavior of some who CLAIM to be Clark supporters I'd say you've been a way for a while. The old hands from DU are generally easy to recongnize and most have not yet gotten caught up in the lower quality dialogue we see so very much of these days.

For good clues on what sort of poster you may recognize as disruptors-come-lately, they often have been here a short time, amassed very high post counts and their screen name generally includes their candidate's name.

Just a friendly FYI to bring you up to speed. :toast:

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

106. That Just Means Some Clark Supporters Are More Decent About It

Just because the more magnanimous Dean supporters haven't seen fit to apologize for THEIR extremists certainly doesn't mean they don't exist.

Stop trying to play holier than thou. All camps here have their extremists, and no camp is innocent here save perhaps CMB's.

DTH

[JNelson6563]

118. I'm about getting tired of your

slurs DTH. I'm not playing holier than thou. How about you test my theory and then come shoot off your mouth?

Count how many short-term posters with extraordinarily high post counts have "Dean" or "Howard" in their name, post obnoxious graphics in all their posts and do nothing but post slurs against other candidates.

No, do it. Or be silent so as not to reveal your selective vision.

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

120. No Slurs at All, Just Stating My Perception

You already admitted to me via PM that neither camp is innocent, that Dean also has a list of extremists that is longer than my arm (my Ignore list is above 40 now, and the vast majority are Dean supporters), so I'm not sure why you're backpedaling now, just because we're debating publicly.

I can understand why the desire of some Dean supporters to play at holier-than-thou might be so great, since Howard Dean does it all the time, and what else would many Dean supporters like to do than emulate their idol? But please don't let it cloud your own objectivity, or rather your own contradictory statements sent not three days ago via PM.

DTH

[bitchkitty]

130. PM -

correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't that stand for Private Message?

How tacky.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

136. You're Supposedly a DU Old-Timer, and You're Not Sure What PM Means?

Yeah, you sure must know all about what this board's been like in the past.

:eyes:

DTH

[JNelson6563]

137. I never concede to you list

and I figured I save you an akward moment by not pointingout your list included folks who aren't even Dean supporters.

I've never made a secret of the fact that there are extremists in all camps. Everyone knows I believe this.

Of course fewer Dean supporters post here everyday anyway so I guess in time you can jsut have the place. After the primaries there will be no need for GD 04 and those who wish to engage in bashing the Dem nominee will not be welcome.

We'll just see how this all plays out eh?

Julie

[DoveTurnedHawk]

138. And I Didn't Say You Conceded To Specific Names

And I even said (twice) that not everyone on that list was a Dean supporter, although most were. How convenient that you forgot that.

I'm glad you agree about the extremists, though, because it's self-evident.

Thanks for "giving" us "the place" though. I'm a Clark supporter, and I had to wade through miles of shit when he first entered, and I'm having to do it again now. You didn't hear me whine about how DU had suddenly become so unfriendly to Clark that I just had to flee, or had unfair Mods, or anything else stupid like that.

DTH

[edzontar]

111. I can testify to all of this..there is a pattern...

And the disruptors are getting easier to identify--at elats for those few of us who seem to CARE.

Most recently, there was a guy who had a Clark-supporter name who was all over the board, praising Nixon, Reagan, and other Repukes..he is no longer with us, I hear.

But the point is telling--this person looked over the baord, noticed that self-identified Clark supporters are the most likely disruptors and Repuke defenders, and proceeded according to this strategy.

OR we may assume that this is part of a coordinated freeper campaign to cloak themselves in pseudo-Clark cover as the easiest way to disrupt--and SURVIVE doing so....

Not a very nice compliment for the legitimate, real-DEM Clark supporters here...I would say you guys have a problem at the moment, and its time to do something about it...

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[burning bush]

97. How can exposing the Clark Charade Do Anything Other Than Help Democracy?

Clark is hiding behind a false face. How do we know who Clark voted for? Can you show me where he voted for Clinton, or Gore?

All we have is his word, and his actions. Would someone who supposedly voted for Bill Clinton turn around and help raise money for republicans?

If they do, then their judgement sucks, and I don't want them as the party's nominee.

If he didn't vote for Clinton, then he's a liar, and an opportunistic son of a bitch.

My vote? I vote that Clark is a liar. I don't think he ever voted for Clinton. I think it's a thick layer of bullshit to further cloud an already murky situation.

How can you trust this guy?

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bain_sidhe]

126. Congratulations

You've turned me to the dark side...

ANYBODY BUT DEAN!

**edit: :grumble, grumble: Ok, maybe I don't mean it. But at this point, I WANT to mean it.

**edit 2: Then again, maybe I DO mean it. :grr:

[burning bush]

133. Hey, why the problem?

It's just politics, ruthlessly practiced

[bain_sidhe]

135. "It's just politics, ruthlessly practiced"

Yup.

[Walt Starr]

88. Hey, I've heard that before

B-)

[KittyWampus]

6. In Post Entitled "Clark and Dean Supporters Get Along"

I believe the poster wrote that in a thread which she entitled "Clark Dean Supporters Get Along" or something like that.

The implication was that the Dean supporters who were origianlly going to try and disrupt things ended up being nice and supportive not that they were ditching Dean. They were just showing solidarity with Democrats.

Now this post seems....

[bitchkitty]

12. It is posted on the Clark blog -

and presented here as another lame attempt to tear down the front runner.

[in_cog_ni_to]

16. It's STILL a stupid post. n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

7. Stupid post. n/t

[QC]

8. Silly.

If this is the best Clark's opponents can do, then it's a very good sign.

[LoneStarDem]

13. Come on

Oh come off of it! Sure, the OG post was a bit of fluff for Clark supporters, but harmless fluff, and certainly no different that Dean supporters declaring the race all but over a couple of weeks ago. To try and blow it up into some sort of mind-space co-opt conspiracy is utterly ridiculous. I mean, good lord, "Why didn't they produce the buttons?"? What, are they going to be faulted for not following some mythical Chain of Evidence for random observation at a political rally?

And "despicable"?!? Damn, you'd think they were caught at a KKK rally tossing kittens in a chipper shredder. There should be a five day waiting period on some adjectives.

[DancingBear]

15. There is a great deal of originality in this post

so I think, oops, wait a minute.

That was another post. Not this one.

Sorry.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

18. Ooh, a Blogger Unaffiliated With the Clark Campaign Writes on the Blog

What a shock! What an outrage!

DTH

[bitchkitty]

19. Posts on the blog

and brings the garbage here. Yep, just another day, time to go shit all over DemocraticUnderground! Yup, just business as usual!

Do you ever wonder why many of the long-time members of DU are now gone? Do you care?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

23. One Person's Garbage Is Another Person's Inspirational Story

I'm sorry that people who dare to rebut the notion that Dean has this thing all wrapped up fill you with such anger.

And it's certainly no skin off of my nose if certain people's skins are so thin that they feel they have to flee DU because of the candidate wars. It's not for everyone, that's for sure.

DTH

[Auntie Bush]

52. YES----I care!

Come back...but let's try to all be more civil. Who in the world wants to argue about Lieberman?

[Shakespeare]

92. Do you ever wonder why some long-time members of DU support Clark?

Careful with that big 'ol brush of yours, bitchkitty. "These people" you so rudely refer to include a lot of original DUers, and they have very sound reasons for supporting Clark, whether you care to agree with them or not.

[edzontar]

112. I haven't seen that many...

Honestly, who are they?

[bain_sidhe]

127. I'm one

Joined up in March or April 2001. Read for a while before that. Even did a stint helping to maintain the link database. And I've had it with Dean supporters.

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

20. The Clark blog

is for Clark supporters. Hence I would expect to find posts there leaning toward Clark...I don't understand why another candidate's supporter would nip onto the Clark blog to snatch up an entry they don't care for & post it on DU.

Wait! Maybe I can...a great way to find "another reason" for not doing what you weren't planning on doing to start with,LOL.

Isn't there enough sniping between opposing supporters here without digging in the opposition's blog so you can start another crap thread?

[bitchkitty]

21. Because they didn't leave

that bullshit where it belonged, they brought it here. It might seem petty to some, but since September I've watched a once-loved refuge, DemocraticUnderground.com, turn into a shit fest largely because of people who call themselves Clark supporters. I'm damned sick of it!

I don't even read pro-Clark articles any more. I can't stand the man, and it's because of shit like this. It reminds me of impeachment all over again, but worse, because these people are supposedly Democrats. They are relentless in their unfair attacks. I'm fucking sick and tired of it.

[bain_sidhe]

22. I feel the same way about Dean supporters

Change a couple of words, and it's like you read my mind!

I've watched a once-loved refuge, DemocraticUnderground.com, turn into a shit fest largely because of people who call themselves Clark Dean supporters. I'm damned sick of it!

I don't even read pro-Clark pro-Dean articles any more. I can't stand the man, and it's because of shit like this. It reminds me of impeachment all over again, but worse, because these people are supposedly Democrats. They are relentless in their unfair attacks. I'm fucking sick and tired of it.

Last night, I tried to make a plea for sanity on the sixteen zillion "race issue gotcha" threads. Come in here today, and am treated to the same kind of thread-storms about Clark and some minor incident. Oh, well. Like I said last night, I was tired and not thinking straight.

[QC]

39. That's been my experience, too.

I am finding it harder and harder to separate my feelings for Dean from my feelings for some of his loudest and most outspoken supporters here.

And I've been around long enough to know that the nastiness here didn't start when Clark declared, because I clearly remember some people from the Dean faction making life hell for supporters of Kerry and Kucinich long before Clark entered the picture.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

42. Exactly Right

And I've been around long enough to know that the nastiness here didn't start when Clark declared, because I clearly remember some people from the Dean faction making life hell for supporters of Kerry and Kucinich long before Clark entered the picture.

Everyone who's been here long enough remembers that, except for certain convenient-memory Dean supporters who apparently prefer to be the victim.

Which makes sense, because Dean consciously tries to appeal to the sense of victimhood in many Dems.

DTH

[Cheswick2.0]

72. do you see 40 screen names using the word Dean or Howard?

Nope. First sign of astro-turf is candidate sig names.

[Castilleja]

96. That's a good point, Cheswick.

One worth noting, I think.

[JNelson6563]

103. Amen sister!!

:toast:

[DoveTurnedHawk]

24. Yeah Right, It's All the Clark Supporters' Fault

:eyes:

"Remove the plank from thine own eye before you criticize the mote in your neighbor's."

DTH

[bitchkitty]

93. Oh, bible quotes!

I can play that too.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

107. That's Exactly Right, You Should Tell Dean Since He Lies Often

Several times about Kucinich, several times about Clark, and many, many times about his own statements and record.

DTH

[JNelson6563]

104. Jesus wept

:-(

[Dookus]

27. stop it with the feigned martyrdom.....

believe me, your guy isn't getting hit any harder or any more often than my guy. The level of crap directed against Dean is not disproportionate.

And to blame Clark supporters for "ruining the board" shows a deep misunderstanding of what this board is. If you want a Dean love-fest, start your own site called deanunderground. But if you want to discuss the Democratic party and its candidates, stay here and quit whingeing about how unfairly you and your guy are being treated.

Or should we get Terry McAuliffe to come in and make everybody behave?

God, what a stupid thread.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

28. I Love Dookus Smackdown

:-)

DTH

[maxanne]

87. yes

rudeness, incivility, and intolerance should always be congratulated.

[bitchkitty]

32. Martyrdom?

I don't see any martyrdom in my post. I'm not whining, I'm bloody well pissed off at assholes who spread the kind of garbage that we see on these threads on a daily basis.

If you can't see the change in this board, starting at the exact time that Clark announced, then you're being deliberately obtuse. I am not surprised.

[Dookus]

36. of course you're whining

and furthermore, you're saying the board sucks because people are doing exactly what YOU'RE doing in this thread.

Who's being deliberately obtuse?

[bitchkitty]

41. You don't know me -

I don't whine. And if I point out yet ANOTHER freaking lie from a Clark Democrat, and you don't take issue with the lie, then you're condoning it. All's fair in war and politics, according to another Clark Democrat above. Well guess what? That's not the way Democrats are supposed to play.

Precisely the attitude that makes me wary of a war dog who praises the BFEE to the skies, then when he falls out of favor with them, registers as a Democrat and enters the race. If you can't see the problem here, then who is being obtuse?

[DoveTurnedHawk]

43. Instead of Blaming Clark SUPPORTERS, Look at Your Own Candidate

That's not the way Democrats are supposed to play.

Tell that to Howard Dean. He's the one who's playing dirty. He's the one who's going negative. Clark has kept it clean.

Christ, give me a break. Blaming supporters for why you hate the candidate just doesn't make any logical sense, IMO.

DTH

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

49. Oh, gee now I'm hurt.

Nobody has ever implied before that I'm a bitch. You've just totally crushed me with your oh-so-clever way of splitting my name into two parts.

Who would have thought that misogyny would exist in a Clark campaigner's post?

No doubt about it - Clark really does get the small penis vote.

[Cheswick2.0]

48. I agree

Hang in there.

[Lefta Dissenter]

82. Yeah? Starting WHEN?

I don't even read pro-Clark articles any more.

I just posted a while ago into a thread that was entirely and solely about Clark. It was about some endorsements that he had just received. Mixed in amongst the mutual handshakes and congratulations between Clark supporters were perfectly useless and NASTY posts by some Dean Supporters.

Perhaps if people would just leave other candidates' POSITIVE threads alone, things would simmer down a bit! I can't imagine your wasting an entire afternoon being so upset about someone's positive little Clark post.

And if we're voting in the election based solely on the behavior of the candidates' DU supporters, I guess we'll have our first black female president, after all!

[edzontar]

113. I concur. This board has been destroyed for the time being....

By people calling themselves Clark supporters.

[QC]

117. How long have you been here?

I can recall, in those now-idealized days before Clark declared, some rather nasty Dean supporters waging jihad against the Kucinich and Kerry supporters and making their time at DU hell.

I know it's popular now to claim that DU was Rainbow Brite's Happy Meadow back before those vulgar people showed up, but it's bullshit, and anyone who has been around here a while knows it.

[DoveTurnedHawk]

121. Again, Dead-On (eom)

DTH

[PatrioticOhioLiberal]

123. They brought it here?

Let me get this straight...you don't read "pro-Clark articles" any more...oh wait...except the one "they" brought here.

But who, we may ask, is the author of this thread? You know, the one from the CLARK BLOG (regardless of where else it may have been posted)?

Why my goodness me...it's BITCHKITTY! :wow:

LOL...so much for being f**king sick & tired of unfair tactics.

It's a bit difficult to be part of the solution when you're busy being part of the problem wouldn't you say? :shrug:

[bitchkitty]

128. No, I don't bother to try to

find out nice things about Clark any more. I was willing, even 2 weeks ago, to put my misgivings about him to rest, but not any more. After seeing the behavior of the majority of his supporters, uh uh. My old Grannie used to say that you can judge a person by the company he keeps - I thought she was wrong, but I'm not so sure now.

This is not about one particular post. It's about a pattern of abuse that has driven many people away. I'm tired of ignoring it. I won't ignore it anymore.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bitchkitty]

31. You have got to be kidding me.

Are you serious?

[janx]

35. No joke. It exists.

See elsewhere for details.

[QC]

40. Then you must have a link to it, right?

[Name removed]

61. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[QC]

66. That's not a "Clark campaign site."

So your statement is, to put it politely, mistaken.

But if you would like to play the game this way, it shouldn't be too hard to dig up some obnoxious remarks and graphics by individual Dean supporters out there and claim that they come from a "Dean campaign site."

[DoveTurnedHawk]

70. Wait, Wait, Let Me Guess

Is Walt still pushing that stupid "50megs" site?

DTH, Who Is About 50/50 on Context Guesses Like These

[QC]

74. Your average just went up!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

108. God, They Make It So Easy

I mean, get a new meme already.

:eyes:

DTH

[Hoppin_Mad]

75. it IS 'a' Clark campaign site

Someone went to a great deal of time and trouble to mirror the official campaign site. It is possible to donate to the Clark campaign by clicking a link on said site. They even included '© 2004 - Paid for by Clark For President - P.O. Box 2959, Little Rock, AR 72203 - so in reality is IS a campiagn site for all intents and purposes. I informed the Clark campaign about this disgusting content many days ago. Their inaction speaks louder than ANYTHING you can say.

[QC]

81. I didn't just fall off the turnip truck this morning,

so I know the difference between an official campaign site and something that a private individual put up on someplace that offers free webspace.

I strongly suspect that you know the difference as well.

[Hoppin_Mad]

84. I never said it was 'THE' official campaign site

But it is a fully functioning mirror of it - you can donate and sign up for email alerts on it.

I notified the Clark campiagn.

NO action !

Why not ?

Maybe they'll only listen to Clark SUPPORTERS.

Will you try to get them to take action ?

Thanks,

Much obliged

[Capn Sunshine]

100. I'm glad you know the difference

then you'll also acknowlege that when a campaign is informed numerous times of content , and does nothing, that is tacit approval, isn't it?

[QC]

105. I definitely think they should contact the guy about removing the site.

They can probably get him TOS'ed for mirroring a copyrighted site and should definitely try.

Now will you acknowledge the intellectual dishonesty of trying to pass off an anonymous individual's site as "a campaign site"?

[Hoppin_Mad]

125. No - it's 'a' campaign site for Clark - an individual's-eom-

[janx]

76. You won't find anything.

n/t

[bicentennial_baby]

33. Who's telling fibs?

You know that was'nt from an actual Clark campaign site.

[QC]

34. Got a link? n/t

[janx]

38. I had almost forgotten about that one--already.

.

[Dookus]

46. Where's the link?

It's a BS charge - I've seen people here with graphics implying Clark is a nazi, but I'd be hard pressed to blame the Dean campaign for it.

The clark campaign has NEVER compared Dean to a nazi. The whole nazi comparison is reserved for the lowest of the low - the sexless web-dwelling troll.

[slinkerwink]

50. I've seen Clark supporters call us members of a nazi brigade

:shrug:

[janx]

54. They also like to bash Dean's religion--and his wife.

Not all of them do this, but the ones who have flooded this board with cheap attacks have done so.

Let's see...then there was the post about how his son had robbed a 7-11.

Oh, I could go on, but

Hey, I've heard it all before!

[Dookus]

63. and I've seen Dean supporters

say similar things about Clark. Moreso, in fact, due to his military past.

My point is that it's not coming from the campaigns. But you evidently missed that very salient aspect of my argument.

[janx]

83. There were no salient aspects.

None.

[Capn Sunshine]

101. if a campaign gives its tacit approval...where it came from is...?

and hey,BK I've heard that before!Definitely No question
B-)

[janx]

51. Hey, I've heard that before!

B-)

[bitchkitty]

53. If you want to see the graphic,

I now have it, and I'll send it to you if you like. I won't post it.

[janx]

62. Why waste your time on someone who just called you a bitch

before he edited his post?

[Dookus]

65. I edited the post

because I did NOT want to call her a bitch. Upon reading the original version, I realized it could be misinterpreted, so I changed it within seconds.

[janx]

68. I guess those were the seconds when I first saw it then.

I must have been reading very fast.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

78. I've heard that before

B-)

[Hoppin_Mad]

59. I got your pic right here

http://www.freepgs.com/clark04/trust.jp

(please add g to the URL above)

It's on a mirrored capaign site at

http://www.freepgs.com/clark04

complete with

"© 2004 - Paid for by Clark For President - P.O. Box 2959, Little Rock, AR 72203"

I emailed the Clark campiagn to inform of this some days ago, but they have not replied, disavowed it, nor apparently considered it important enough to take any action.

Sad

[Hep]

58. If they had an inkling of an idea of what our campaign is about

they wouldn't even try such childish tactics.

[TexasPatriot]

60. lets suppose

that the person saw people getting rid of Dean material and picking up clark material... and that was an accurate statement. The observer doesnt know who those people were - whether they were Dean people who were there to disrupt, or people who'd been given Dean material and were so inspired that they traded it out for Clark material, etc... there was no question the report was subjective - but that doesnt mean that events didnt happen as the viewer saw them. In my opinion, saying 'pretty certain' is a better thing to say than making a stronger assertion - because you absolutely know neither the prior intent nor the leanings of the people who were doing it. The person might have thought he saw those people doing something or saying something at some point - but wasnt sure enough to feel comfortable making a bolder statement.

i think the report is a great report - and if Clark really did raise the roof with an inspirational message as it seems - then we might really have an amazing opportunity.

[bitchkitty]

64. Then what's with the "pretty certain"?

A dead giveway.

[TexasPatriot]

73. well

pretty certain could easily apply to the question of whether they were "Dean supporters who had originally thought of coming there to disrupt the speech" rather than "leave throwing their buttons". One can see people leave and not be sure of their original intent in coming in the first place.

[Walt Starr]

69. Yet another reason Clark is dead last in my mind

Lieberman is definitely preferable to Clark.

And La rouche is edging up on clark in my book.

[tameszu]

77. I was in NH and I am certain

that we found a little old lady with tons of Dean stuff all over her porch, but when she told us that "she wasn't so sure about this Dean fellow," we spoke to her for about 15 minutes and then she asked us to tear down all of her Dean stuff and replace it with Clark stuff. Yeah, baby!

And the "pretty certain" applies to whether they really were Dean supporters who had come to disrupt the speech. That IN ITSELF is the most dispicable behavior--and we know that the Dean campaign sanctions and encourages this kind of behavior, because its campaign spokespeople confirmed it.

And if this is the worst reason you can find for not voting for Clark, after your campaign sent supporters to crash other candidates' events and tried to shout them down (Clark's, Gep's and others), then you need to get a bit more perspective.

[janx]

79. You're using gossip to make your assertions.

It's very weak evidence.

:eyes:

[tameszu]

122. What gossip?

It is verifiable that the Dean campaign sent its supporters to crash Gep and Clark events--his spokesmen confirmed and defended it both times.

I don't really care about random observations posted by random Clark supporters about the number of switchers in NH on the Clark. If this is her entire reason for not supporting Clark, I give up on American politics. It is just silly beyond belief.

And what about the ridiculous Dean supporter on DU who posted a link to a site that mirrored the official Clark site and then added a picture of Dean in a Hitler costume and complained that the Clark campaign was sanctioning this? And then said that until the Clark campaign responded to this stupid and almost certainly trumped up charge, it was responsible for this? Skinner locked the thread, and I'd say it's about 1,000,000 times worse than what BK found on the Clark site.

Edit: Oh wait--it was upthread too, but the post got deleted by a mod because it was so obviously flamebait. There's your proof right there.

[bitchkitty]

90. Spin, spin, spin!

If this had really happened, the person telling this transparent lie would have simply looked in the trash. There would be no "pretty certain" about it. They were lying, and it's obvious to anyone.

[Renew Deal]

91. Garbage pickers for Clark.

You think people have nothing better to do than check garbage cans for Dean materials. Sure, OK. Yuo should be more worried about the fact that your candidate says Bush is certain for another term. If your candidate is the nominee, he will be correct again. Remember, he never makes a mistake.

[bitchkitty]

94. If it had been true,

the person telling the lie would have checked the trash. Anyone would.

And since some people spend all their time looking for garbage on Dean, I think Garbage-Pickers for Clark is very catchy. In fact, honey, I think you may have just coined a phrase!

[DoveTurnedHawk]

109. What a Mountain Out of a Molehill

Do you realize how ridiculous this "controversy" is? I mean, this thread is dumber than the oft-repeated Acxiom stuff.

You're desperately trying to parse one unofficial Clark supporter's "pretty sure" and corresponding failure to root through garbage as some kind of indictment of the entire Clark campaign.

I'm sorry Dean's many shortcomings and negative campaigning against Clark has you so desperately trying to compensate for him by searching for something, anything, to try to make Clark look as bad (which would be impossible), but this is REALLY stretching it beyond the breaking point.

DTH

[edzontar]

115. That reminds me of something I;ve read somewhere.....

nt

[RetroLounge]

124. But you've hit reply 16 times?

:wtf:

[styersc]

95. Lighten up Francis.

I swear a lot of people around here sound just like ditto-heads. You have an almost religious attraction to your candidate of choice.

[dogman]

110. I thought DU meant Democratic Underground!

Now your telling me it's supposed te mean Dean Underground. I guess with all the money he's raised he bought this site. Are you the mod. now?

[edzontar]

114. Haven't I heard that somewhere before?

nt

[ClarkGraham2004]

116. I'm "pretty" sure this is a stupid post <nm>

[bhunt70]

119. Im absolutely certain.

[Dr Fate]

131. Sounds like old-timey, harmless politicking to me...

ho-hum...

[QC]

132. Yeah. I often wonder if this is many people's first campaign.

Given the hysterical reactions to ho hum events.

[RandomUser]

139. The ND email

If you doubt the existence of the email, perhaps you should try google. It's in the Jan 7th entry of ABC's "The Note" and the email is NOT a rumor. I don't bother looking up dirt on Dean, so apologies if you felt the email's existence wasn't documented.

I remember seeing the email mentioned on DU. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=93108#93151

And I when I saw the report of what happened in ND, I remembered it.

I just looked up the ABCNews entry, and here's what it says:
-----
But it doesn't seem like the attacks will let up. When Clark shows up in North Dakota on Saturday, 'Dean for America' may have a surprise for The General. In an e-mail sent out by Dean's North Dakota "GenDean" coordinator, Berrett Gall, Dean supporters were invited to the Jefferson-Jackson dinner where Clark will be speaking. Gall writes:

"Wesley Clark will be speaking at the event, and we want there to be at least 100 Dean supporters there, 50 of them, GenDean members. We will have Beanies, shirts, noise makers, and a bunch of cool Dean stuff for you when you get there."
-----
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/Politics/DailyNews/fieldclark-2.html

If you had really be interested in verifying this charge, you would have gone and looked it up. I didn't because I wasn't interested in digging up dirt on Dean. I happened to see the blog report and remembered it being mentioned on DU, so posted it here because I thought it would be of interest as a follow up to the email mentioned here.