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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:23 AM
Original message
How do people of Massachusetts feel about being demonized?
Gee -- apparently the only thing worse than being a "liberal" (aka Christ Killer, baby eater) is to be a "Massachusetts Liberal". I guess these not only kill Christ and eat babies, but want to raise taxes on the middle class in order to donate more money to the homosexuals of Al Qaeda to attack America with.

Why is it okay to vilify the citizens of this state, which I safely assume is NOT monolithic? Just because the Kennedys come from there? My heavens -- they talk about Massachusetts like they do the Sunni Triangle....

Is Massachusetts such a world class cesspool of depravity? The statistics I see put Massachusetts well below national averages of crime -- um, is it because there are no laws there?

Of course, I understand that the references are purely symbolic bullshit, but aren't the good people of Massachusetts at least slightly miffed as being singled out as representing what is wrong for Amerika? How does this vilification play at home?
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loveable liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
1. wasnt * born in mass?
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:37 AM
Response to Reply #1
8. No, but the asshole went to school there. Twice.
Ungrateful shit.
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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
2. I feel great! Between MIT and Harvard who gives a shit
Edited on Thu Oct-14-04 12:26 AM by endnote
What anybody else thinks ? All I need is right here... This is where the latest cool stuff is invented!
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #2
11. All that yankee ingenuity
His Chimperial Highness doesn't really seem real interested in what cool stuff in invented at MIT. It simply isn't on his radar -- not even this visionary, very practical stuff that arises there like no where else on the planet.

He's not into gadgets. He's into extraction of resources. He is trying to revive the old confederate economy -- a shiftless shirt tempered aristocracy supported by low skill serfs.
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barackmyworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
3. I don't mind...
Edited on Thu Oct-14-04 12:28 AM by barackmyworld
because I actually do eat babies. He hit the nail on the head with that one.

My sig isn't showing up. I go to Harvard. All of the liberals here have started a campaign to burn every historic bible in our library. We also are big fans of encouraging people to choose to be gay.
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thanks for being honest, which is hard for MA liberals, I hear
I always wondered why there were so few graves of babies in Massachusetts -- I had my suspicions about them ending up in the bellies of liberals as some sushi snack....

I don't know what year of study you are in -- but your ideas seem to be anachronistic. The latest taxpayer funded science clearly shows that people do not choose to be gay -- rather, being gay is the natural order; breeding is unnatural and icky and so so so wrong.

As for burning Bibles -- well, it gets cold there, and people need to be comfortable. Historic Bibles, in particular, give baby bacon a special mellow flavor when used in the old smoker, but I bet you knew that already.

How George W got out of Harvard untouched certainly speaks volumes about his character.

:-)
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Zing Zing Zingbah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
27. HAHAHA
That's funny.

I'm surprised Bush didn't use the word "Massholes". It would of complimented his Massachusetts liberals rant nicely.
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Still_Notafraid Donating Member (304 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
4. Good Question
I have wondered this myself.
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. Massachusetts led the way
in de-throning another King George.

:headbang:
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. a very good point.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. Let me tell you about Massachusetts
It is a great state with wonderful people and a lousy governor. It has Boston, Cape Cod, the Berkshires, anything and everything you could want. It is a hop, skip and a jump to NH, VT, CT, NY and ME. Smack dab in one of the nicest regions of our country.

And you know what Massachusetts does NOT do? THEY DO NOT TAX MILITARY RETIREMENT PAY. Unlike the chickenhawks, MA HONORS those who served, in tangible fashion.

Weewee was born in Connecticut, but he was educated, badly, at Phillips Andover (MA), Yale, in CT, and Harvard Business School (when the MBA program was just getting started, I knew guys who went through it and they said it was a totally 'gut' program--plenty of time for boozing it up).
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:35 AM
Response to Original message
7. We are pretty much used to it by now.
Yeah, we are a liberal state alright. We are the state that burned women at the stake for being "witches" remember? We are the state that has banned more books than any other state, remember? In fact, that used to be a battle cry for the conservatives about anything that Boston found distasteful or questionable "Well, it was banned in Boston".

But, we are also the state that believed in protests way back when -- remember that little tea party we had? Remember the "shot heard round the world"? Paul Revere, the freedom trail, homes that still sport hiding places left over from the underground railroad days (I can personally speak to that as I live in a 220 year old home that HAS one), remember?

We are being painted with a broad brush because we have judges that believe in individual rights over religious pressures now. How far we have come!

We have a saying up here -- "swamp yankee", which means we will recycle something a gazillion time to be conservative (my former in-laws would dry paper towels to use them more than once -- I shit you not!), while sharing what we have with our neighbors. It's a thing of beauty actually. We are forward thinking people, most of us.

We are a tough bunch up here. We have broad shoulders. We can take it if Kerry can!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:40 AM
Response to Original message
10. look who's callin US the demons. it's high praise!
remember "don't blame me, i'm from massachusetts"?

"blame" for nixon.

only state didn't go to nixon in, what? was it '72? went to mcgovern?

not even to mention progressive sanctuary.

well, you get the idea.

PROUD!!

got its huge problems too, though. look mitt, ugh, grrrrr!

thank you for asking :)



peace!
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:49 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. oh, and alice's restaurant and stockbridge and ashfield, and... :) n/t
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intheflow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. that's my side of the state
where you can get anything you want
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. mmh mmh mmmmh... n/t
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Eye and Monkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. You can get anything you want, at Alice's Restaurant
Walk right in, 'round the back
Just a half-mile from the railroad track

How many times will the Group W bench be recreated in the upcoming draft...

HEY - THE GROUP "W" BENCH...!!!

"sitting there, I mean sitting there, on the Group W Bench, with mother-rapers, and father-stabbers...and father-rapers..."
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
23. grinnin! hearing arlo as i read. thank you :) n/t
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. That's my point
Massachusetts seems like a nice place. Well below the national norm in crime and violence. You have to look to the south for real good hot headed crimes and violence, but you'd never know it from the pandering you hear.

Kinda like blaming atheists for crime. Don't they say that the reason people are so "lawless" these days is because they don't fear God, because they are taught evolution?

You'd think that the jails would be filled with evolutionary biologists and astrophysicists!

But they aren't.

Some time ago, I saw statistics that showed that the lowest rate of divorce in America was among -- not fundies, as they want us to believe, but among atheists. Seems Rick Santorum has a model of family stability right under his twitchy little weasel nose, but won't look at it.

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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. acting by reason versus regimentation, guilt-syndrome, etc.
is true, such a difference.




peace
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 12:47 AM
Response to Original message
12. I Thought Kerry should have brought up the great public education
system in Mass, compared to say, Texas, which sucks.

Massachusetts ranked smartest state for second year in a row.
http://www.morganquitno.com/edpress.htm
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:03 AM
Response to Reply #12
18. We have a very tough state wide testing system (MCAS) which students
have to pass to get a diploma. If they don't pass in the 10th grade, they can retake the test in 11th and 12th. If they still fail, they get a certificate of attendence instead of a diploma.

We also give free in state tuition to the top performers on that test.
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Hmmm
Let's see -- Massachusetts gets it right. Can't have that. So we should follow the Texas model.

His Chimperial Majesty talked a LOT about education of kids when asked about current unemployment. Didn't seem to have a lot to offer to trained people who lost their jobs to outsourcing, except to get thee to a community college. Um, for what?

I think that access to education for worker "retooling" is great -- but, gee -- didn't we already have this system in place? But is anyone SERIOUSLY thinking it is going to provide solutions to those well trained and experienced in jobs that got outsourced?

And what exactly are "the jobs of the 21st century"? Funny that His Chimperial Majesty saw them rising from community colleges, rather than from places like MIT. That very telling about his real vision of the future of the American economy.....

I think the unpinning of his economic plan is that American workers better get used to earning a hell of a lot less than they used to. If they don't gripe, and of course they can get everything they need from Walmart (can Chinese prison labor provide cheap prescription drugs though?), then all will be well.

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nolajazz Donating Member (68 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:14 AM
Response to Original message
22. I believe in terms of personal income, education, environment,
Massachusetts beats Texas hands down.

No offense to Texas DUers.
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:15 AM
Response to Original message
24. It's okay to vilify
a state to smart to vote for you.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:23 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. yep. complimenting us, and can't even get that good laugh fer us. n/t
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jdots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Mass. is Wicked Pissa
why did i leave that noble State of Consciouness as we called it proudly in 1972,sure it has it's chumps and some creeps call it Taxachusetts when it actually has social services,a public school system that is able to place students into colleges .This is why this unelected administaition hates it.
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secular_warrior Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:25 AM
Response to Original message
26. Exactly. And when some of us talk about the South, we're admonished
by some in our own party.

This is why I don't feel bad when some of us put down the reactionary states. We have a real reason to. Most of those people are still fighting the Civil War and want to deny civil rights to everyone except white straight Christian males.

The GOP bashes the blue states without a real reason. The blue states never did anything to them.
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chookie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. What is forbidden to speak of...
...is where the real power lies.

That's a mouthful, my friend....
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tsuki Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
29. Yes, but related to that
Being a southern woman of an indeterminate age, I recently had lunch with ladies (oh yes, we still use that term) of an even more indeterminate age than I. When we spoke of Bush's War, they were hawks. I tried to reason with them having heard them harangue those d* yankees "for invading the homeland and destroying our way of life." Don't you think the Iraqi women might feel the same as you do? They didn't get it.

Bush might think stubbornness is a presidential quality--but as a Mainer he will never approach a southern woman.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. because it's not "most people" there. you're really describing
a minority that doesn't want to give up unearned white/christian/male privilege - minority rule; and is bitter about having to - viciously hanging on to old economic monopolies. it has been the same in some part of every state throughout our history.

defining the south by that *minority* just gives them power they're not entitled to.

RE-invalidates the long-dominated majority.



peace
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secular_warrior Donating Member (705 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Disagree - the good people are the minority
If the majority were on the side of civil rights they wouldn't be voting for the party opposed to it, as they always have.

Even most of the Dems down there are right wingers.

When the South turns blue (or even purple) I'll change my opinion.

States like Arkansas and Tennessee seem to be coming around, but I think that's more a result of Clinton/Gore. We'll see. I just don't think there's any hope for some of the states out there.
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:41 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. there's a saying:
Edited on Thu Oct-14-04 02:44 AM by nofurylike
"womyn with leisure time breed revolution."

point is, as long as the true MAJORITY is consumed by survival struggle, as is true in the south - by design of the oligarchy - you will not know what an actual one person : one vote election would bring.

we are about to see the closest to that that this country has ever seen.

when they show blue, LOVE IT.


peace
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:54 AM
Response to Reply #26
36. Well, we did burn down Atlanta.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:42 AM
Response to Original message
34. Guilty as charged- and proud of it

You have to begin with the New England personality, which is a little cold and takes selfreliance to amusing extremes at times but is very practical on the whole, and pragmatic and dutiful about the life of the community. You accept that all the people around you are flawed and it's no use arguing about it. In country that is snowbound for five months of the year, everyone ultimately has to help each other get the simple things done and being impossible to be reasoned with is considered a dereliction. New England itself is temperate and quite beautiful, an intersection zone of weather patterns and geologies and ecosystems (ocean, swamp, hills, mountains, lakes) that makes it a patchwork of little disparate niches of human and animal and plant life- images of unity and diversity, permanence and passage all at the same time and all the time. So New Englanders have historically had to have some sense of tolerance about unusual neighbors and an inclination to regard them as mildly insane at the same time. This has proven to be a quite practical stance toward each other and the rest of the world- wary but not insecure, well informed but not entirely interested, proactive but not aggressive, winning by outplanning rather than outbruting, not going in search of or out of the way of a fight.

Massachusetts history has a lot more examples of proactive resistance to oppressive stupidity than you mention. There's the hanging of Mary Dyer and some other Quakers, which began the downfall of the Puritans- something which the Christian Right has not forgiven nor forgotten. There's John Hancock- the richest businessman of the Colonies- giving almost all his wealth to winning the Revolutionary War and payment of the debts the Continental Congress ran up. There's the Unitarian(-Universalist) Church founding. There's Ralph Waldo Emerson and the whole Selfreliance business (at the time Boston was a city with a lot of Quakers and in his letters Emerson says he took the Quaker idea termed Godreliance and simply renamed to Selfreliance, and Boston Quakers were the people he modelled his ideal of Americans on). There's jury nullification of the Fugitive Slave Act, for which Boston was notorious, and the state's abolitionists. There's the fight South Carolina picked with Massachusetts, via the Preston Brooks caning of Charles Sumner, which led Massachusetts to get the largest mass of federal troops placed in Charleston prior to Secession and made that city the place where the Civil War was precipitated. There's public education, first mandated in the state mostly to keep children from being forced to work in the mills in 1848. There's the rise of the Boston Irish, the first non-Anglosaxon political elite outside of New York City in the former Colonies. And so on.

There's also a somewhat strange but deep attitude toward public service that got engrained in the upper tiers of Boston society around the time of the Revolution. Sam Adams was maybe one of the first representatives of the lot. It was the idea that people like themselves had much more social freedom, disposable wealth, and personal ability than, say, the European aristocracy to bring progress and hamstring regression in the world. There was also constant contact with upper tiers of British society by the Boston Brahmin families, as they became known, and a sense of competition: as Americans they had more opportunity for enterprise and no chance to rise in feudal rank, and so they ended up fighting the status war by creating charitable or progressive enterprises and revelling in the changes these accomplished that other patrician families and aristocrats (in London, New York, Philadelphia) couldn't match. Some of these enterprises are overt (the Boston Museum of Fine Arts), some covert (parts of the local universities, foundations you'll never hear the names of, bits of things like PBS). John Kerry is part of that social system and certainly knows it- it has a lot of selfindulgence, of course, and is mildly conservative and skeptical...but it also has a powerful covert pride in bringing progress to the world and slowly destroying the oppressive forces, even (especially) if it's all done indirectly and never credited to them. The remaining Brahmins are certainly not the origin of all progress, of course, and have been losing their relative power. But it's a local tradition and the generally undiscovered and untold reason for the otherwise inexplicable accumulation of institutions and people and technical developments in Boston (and maybe Providence, our sidekick) that prove to initiate much of the great changes in American society- e.g. the Pill- and did things like make it possible for the country to prevail technologically in the Cold War.

As for the present political era, Nixon probably never forgave the Kennedys for his loss in 1960- they were better at being aristocrats, they were better players in the corruption-driven politics of their time, and if it hadn't been for their assassinations Nixon would not have made it into the Oval Office and he knew it. This leads to 1972's election and McGovern and the 1974 Watergate bumper sticker "Don't blame me, I'm from Massachusetts". Pointing back at the Kennedy record in the '60s and '70s, we then got Ronald Reagan in a 1980 debate being asked "Have you ever been to a Communist country?" and his reply of "Only to Massachusetts". After that we get BizarroWorld being preached by the Republican Party and Massachusetts being made the scapegoat. Part of real Beltway Republican hatred of Massachusetts has to do with the power the state had in Congress until 1994- a Kennedy as senator and proactive for the working class and working poor, a Brahmin (Kerry) investigating their corrupt buddies and major abuses, and a House delegation that was a Democratic power clique in the way it accumulated seniority and worked together across House Committees to maximize outcomes (pork and power) for the state and themselves as a group and for the Party. Tip O'Neill as Speaker stalled or killed a good bit of the Reagan Administration agenda- and George Mitchell (of Maine, but you know that Maine used to be a part of Massachusetts) was his helper in the Senate, and so things like blocking Bob Bork were achieved despite a lot of Southern Democrats constantly going turncoat.

So: what do people in Massachusetts care about what Texas Republican operatives allege about them and their state? Massachusetts Democrats and Independents tend not to care- they'll tell you that there's plenty wrong and illiberal to the state, that the state government is unideological and far more engrossed in arguments about nepotism and pork barrel spending particulars and payback manouvers in multidecade-old Boston politician feuds than anyone would ever dare imagine. But they'll probably also tell you that everywhere else they've been in the country they've found the very top tier of politicians to be a cut (or two, or three) lower in ability/quality.

Massachusetts Republicans will declare their state to be hell and then start offering a series of excuses for why they prefer, nonetheless, to live there- despite all the moaning they're still getting wealthier and their kids are nabbing good educations and desirable jobs, the beaches on Nantucket and the Vineyard are still pristine, you can still get a beach house out of sight of people, the snow gets cleared efficiently, no one cares about their sex lives or that they never attend church unless someone dies, the divorce courts work, the Democrats keep the state government running without calamity and pretty responsibly, and the state taxes aren't bad for the quality of life delivered at all. It's a pretty nice Hell, really, with enough conservation land and well paved country roads and plenty of money still left to be made in real estate, low rates of crime outside the slums, and St. Kitts to visit in the winters. The golf courses and clubs are not that great, granted, but that can be lived with. And so they stay and whine and scheme for big federal tax breaks.



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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. And don't forget those beans!
--IMM:bounce:
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nofurylike Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #34
38. great essay on new england and massachusetts!
what a long and broad perspective you seem to have.

are you multi-generation new englander?

thank you for that. i learned much from reading it.

are you a writer? published, i mean.
because i humbly suggest submitting this to local magazines.



peace!
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nonconformist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:56 AM
Response to Original message
37. I wish Kerry would say THIS
"Mr President, do you have something against the state of Massachusetts? Why do you continually insult the entire state? You are supposed to be the President of all 50 states... why the animosity towards Massachusetts?"
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
39. Does this tactic even work?
Is there really a national bias against Mass? It seems totally concocted by the right wing. I mean there's definitely a lot of hate for the south, for the boring "flyover states" in the middle of the country, for the fancypants elitists in NY and the shallow, superficial, celebrity-crazed phonies in CA. But I've honestly never heard any of these "Massachusetts liberal" stereotypes before. Is this more of an east coast thing?
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ContinentalOp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
40. Does this tactic even work?
Is there really a national bias against Mass? It seems totally concocted by the right wing. I mean there's definitely a lot of hate for the south, for the boring "flyover states" in the middle of the country, for the fancypants elitists in NY and the shallow, superficial, celebrity-crazed phonies in CA. But I've honestly never heard any of these "Massachusetts liberal" stereotypes before. Is this more of an east coast thing?
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