THE ANSWER to this Mary Cheney crap

[WilliamPitt]

Penned by DUer lwfern. This is hammer meet nail:

If Mary had juvenile diabetes nobody would be insulted that Kerry brought it up.

If they were discussing stem cell research, and Kerry said "this is the best chance for the Vice President's own daughter to have a better life, but he refuses to endorse it," we wouldn't be hearing these complaints.

If you view her sexual orientation as an insult, you'll be offended by Kerry's remark.

If you view her orientation as a part of the natural circumstances of her life that's not open to judgment calls, you won't be anymore insulted than in the above scenario.

====

If you have the email addys of bloggers, get this out.

[Walt Starr]

1. BINGO!

We need the Democrats who speak to the talking heads to hammer this home!

[Goldmund]

2. Of course, that's soooo obvious

But I think their MO is to play to the un-PC, but omnipresent -- unspoken but assumed -- bigotries of their base, and this is a typical move in that direction. These are the people who say "I don't have anything against black people as long as one doesn't marry my daughter" and think of that as a self-consistent statement. That's why this will only play to their base, and may even backfire if we are are shrewd enough at exposing the unspoken bigotry of their "outrage".

[hiphopnation]

6. it may not be SOOOOOO

obvious to some. Spread it around. I hadn't thought of it that way.

[Goldmund]

8. Oh, I totally agree

I didn't mean it was too obvious to spread around -- to the contrary, I meant this is so good for spreading around that it doesn't even need to be spun. It's an easy winner.

[hiphopnation]

3. kick kick kick

:kick: and keep it that way. Spot on analysis.

[kentuck]

4. They want to make an "issue" of it..

I think?

[SeanQ]

5. Exactly!

kick

[Sparkly]

7. Right -- It's like if Chimp had said, "Alexandra Kerry could tell you

that being tall is just being who she is, as God made her."

Reply: "He's ATTACKING tall people! He's a bad man! What a tawdry political stunt!"

[Free2BMe]

9. except that JK wouldn't be offended by a "tall"remark...

Lynne Chaney has a problem with accepting homosexuality and being that it is something which it is assumed one is born with puts alot of pressure on people who think they are responsible for everything...which is the rw thinking.

[Sparkly]

12. That's the point. n/t

[cali]

10. I don't agree that

it's that simple. I reject your analogy between illness and being gay, though I think I understand where you're coming from. I'm troubled by the specter of homosexuality ever being tied to a specific gene. Doesn't that open the possibility that parents will want to "fix" their gay offspring in the womb with gene therapy?
Although I'm not offended by Kerry's remark, I thought it was a political error. And I can see how folks would be offended by it and not view her sexual orientation as an insult.

[saracat]

31. I reacted to the illness compardison as well. Not good.

[cade]

11. Children grow up

and make choices.
Her parents need to rent a life.

[MagicBoy]

53. But

Homosexuality is not a CHOICE.

You are born with it, like being tall or short. No one Chooses their sexuality. You are who you are.

[cade]

77. the choice

her daughter has chosen to be quite visable. From most things I've seen today it appears thier daughter is making alot of money and notariety based on her sexuality.
Personally I don't care, but her mother really has no right to be offended. Her daughter has chosen to be highly visable.
Her sexuality is of no interest to me.

[Jacobin]

13. And another penned by the Plaid Adder

This one is an absolute MUST READ. Absolutely perfect.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1067987

[diamond14]

14. cruel to compare a life-threatening disease that requires THOUSANDS

of insulin injections and finger pricks to survive, resulting in blindness, kidney failure, heart damage, gangrene, and painful neuropathy (nerve damage)...wake up, will....people suffering from juvenile diabetes end up with such horrible nerve damage that most cannot even have sex....

....comparing that to being gay????

where is your sense of decency, mr. pitt???

[NewYorkerfromMass]

15. It's the hypcorisy, hypcorisy hypcorisy,

They pretend to be uniters and they are in fact HATE filled dividers.
It's as simple as that.
You don't need to talk about illnesses.
The only illness here is hate.

[Mz Pip]

16. It's not like the GOP

took gay rights off the table in this election. They went out of their way to be divisive by putting that Constitutional Ammendment up for a vote when they knew damn well it had no chance of passing. So why did they do it? To hammer home their RW conservative agenda. Now they whine when Mary Cheney's sexual orientation is brought p.

They brought up the sexual orientation of millions of Americans with their anti-gay platform.

MzPip
:dem:

[geniph]

17. I'm ashamed of Mary Cheney, personally

not because she's gay - other people's sex lives are not my concern - but because of her support of the Bu$h regime. How CAN she?!

[unfrigginreal]

18. Um, homosexuality is not a disease, those analogies suck

The only person whose feelings matter on this subject are Mary Cheney's. Someone should ask her if she was offended, and if she was then Kerry should call her. No public statements are necessary.

[chiburb]

20. I agree with you...

Analogies to someone's height or eye color would be appropriate, but the OP only compares to diseases...
The intention was fine, but the execution is lacking.

[nyhuskyfan]

32. You could use any number of analogies...

If she was injured in combat, and was used to point out the need for more funding for VA hospitals.

If she was an elementary school teacher, and Kerry used her to point out that Head Start helps her do her job better.

If she was a school counselor, and was used as an example of the importance of after-school programs.

If she was a tall person and was used as an example of the need to build roomier cars (maybe that's the best example, since being tall isn't a choice).

[seventhson]

19. Elizabeth Edwards has a GREAT response (and its on Drudge!!!)....

It LOOKS nasty on the Drudge front page, but when you get to the article it is a GREAT quote.


ELIZABETH EDWARDS ON ABC RADIO: "She's overreacted to this and treated it as if it's shameful to have this discussion. I think that's a very sad state of affairs… I think that it indicates a certain degree of shame with respect to her daughter's sexual preferences… It makes me really sad that that's Lynne's response."

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/NotedNow/story?id=156246

[troublemaker]

21. I disagree somewhat. Gay is not like diabetes. Gay is like straight.

I think the post is close, but still buys into the logic that gay is some sort of disability.

If Bush had a child with Parkinson's and Kerry said "Bush won't help his own child." It would be HIGHLY inappropriate, IMO. It would be playing on a tragic misfortune.

Being gay, however, is not a tragic misfortune.

Saying Mary Cheney is gay is like saying Elizabeth Cheney is a mother or that Lynne Cheney is a grandmother.

[Selwynn]

22. Don't agree Will. Comparing her sexuality to a disease is not the way

..to go.

[Selwynn]

23. Better might be if they had an african american daughter, for example..

...adopted, etc.

Mentioning that in a question that had to with with an issue affecting african americans wouldn't be considered "offensive."

[The Magistrate]

24. This Is My Answer, Mr. Pitt

Cheney is a leading stalwart of the Republican Party. That Party seeks to make political hay by assaulting homosexuals, and Cheney is perfectly willing to profit by and assist in the doing. In doing so, he is assaulting his own child, and revealing himself not just to be a hypocrite, but to be the worst imaginable father, and farthest thing imaginable from a real man. It is his duty, as a father and as a man, to protect his children, and if he were even minimally competent as a father and a man, he would spend a great deal of time denouncing the Republican Party's assault on his own child's liberty and happiness. Instead, he lends it countenance and profits by it: in short, his relation to his daughter is not that of a father but of a pimp, and it is quite fair to say he is more than willing to pimp out his own children for a few votes, because that puts money in his own and his friends' pockets. A damned odd way to vindicate one's attachment to family values, in my view, but there you are....

"Republicanism is a character flaw."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[Sparkly]

27. That goes for Lynne, too!

Great post as usual, Magistrate.

[chiburb]

40. Sir, if Cheney is a pimp

Then Mary is certainly a willing whore. She is, after all, actively and willingly working for her father/pimp.

[DrFunkenstein]

42. Not To Be A Prude, But That's Not Necessary

She's working for her father, a man I am sure she greatly admires in the most sincere of fashions. Just because she is on the wrong side doesn't mean we should resort to misogyny at the drop of a hat.

[The Magistrate]

50. Thank You, Doctor

Where a child is put in such a position by a parent, it is always with the latter that the full responsibility for the criminal exploitation must reside.

"Republicanism is a character flaw."

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[chiburb]

58. Huh? Not to be argumentative Sir (and Doctor),

But Mary is hardly a child! She's a 31 year old adult who has CHOSEN to participate in Republican politics, and especially to work for her father's election. This despite the fact that Republican policies help to keep her from being recognized as a full citizen of the United States.
I THINK I'd agree with you two if we were talking Maya Keyes, a 19 year old "child". But Mary? I believe my description of her as a whore (to your calling Cheney a pimp) was not only accurate but appropriate.
Respectfully.

[The Magistrate]

65. Still, Sir

Best to keep the focus on the vicious reptile running for office, eh?

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[chiburb]

67. Absolutely! n/t

[chiburb]

63. Sorry Doctor, what's misogynistic in my post?

Where did I express any hatred for women? The use of the word "whore"? Cheney was called a "pimp", I'm calling his 31 year old daughter his "employee/whore". Where is the hate?
You seem a reasonable person. I wouldn't mind an apology...

[DrFunkenstein]

68. "Attention-Whore" Is Cool With Me, "Whore" Not So Much

I understand that you were merely engaging in some lighthearted wordplay, but I was pointing out that it wasnt necessary to go down that road just for the laugh/point.

I'm...sorry?

[DrFunkenstein]

25. Kerry Was Insensitive To the Parents Of Gays Everywhere

This obviously is not about violating the privacy of the Mary Cheney, it is about not allowing parents to have control over the perceptions of their family, as well as not using the children of politicians as political volleyballs.

One is a legitimate concern, the other is not. The campaigns have done well to avoid bringing each other's children into the nastier edges of the race. While they have been allowed to speak to matters of character, they have been exempted from being scrutinized themselves. It was unforntunate that Kerry chose to use Mary Cheney to score a debate point, but at the same time it was an important point to make. That she had previously been brought up as a volleyball without protest makes it difficult to criticize further volleys.

As for being insensitive to the shame a parent might feel, the Cheneys have already expressed at several points that they are proud of their daughter in her entire humanity. It was not like they had previously made it clear that they did not want the matter brought up - and so any attempt to make this point is not legitimate.

The situation is not black and white - while Kerry should have avoided pulling unwilling people into his arguments, it can hardly be considered a politically criminal matter.

[troublemaker]

26. ALAN KEYES made her the poster-girl for "is gay a choice"

She is to "is gay a choice?" what Michael J Fox is to Parkinson's.

If anybody doesn't like that fact, blame KEYES.

[rinsd]

35. I would agree....

Bad form in my opinion but hardly the worst thing ever.

Tempest in a teapot and all that jazz.

[MADem]

46. Wait a minute

...it's OK for Dick to bring her up, TWICE, in the 00 and 04 VP debates, it's OK for him to pay her to be the designated campaign queer, it's OK for her to work at a hefty salary doing outreach to gays for COORS BEER....but it ain't OK to say the L WORD??

Parental shame?? Parental CONTROL??? Family PERCEPTIONS? I am not understanding your point, I'm afraid. I do not see ANY legitimacy in their faux outrage. She's not a five year old who pooped in the supermarket, or a 13 year old who got caught vandalizing the local church, she's an adult with a lifestyle many of the ticket's supporters think is EVIL and UNGODLY.

They use her when they need her. They don't get to make the RULES. There are no rules--she's out, she's partnered, she's a paid member of the campaign, she worked for COORS beer marketing it to the gay community, and she is FAIR GAME.

If she did not want to play, she should not have joined the party. If she had absented herself from her daddy's effort, no one would have said a word--in that case, it would not have been appropriate. But she's on the team, pulling down a paycheck, just like Racicot, Andy Card, Karl Rove, and the rest.

If anyone gave her a special pass simply because of her orientation, that would be discrimination. And it would be wrong.

[mumon]

74. Perceptions of family is fair game.

Especially when "family values" are such big shibboleths to Repugs.

[realFedUp]

28. Sisters....sisters....

[Stephanie]

62. There were never more devoted "Sisters"

http://www.whitehouse.org/administration/sisters.asp

[Wapsie B]

29. That's way too much

for the average ditto head to digest. It needs to be more like she's been out a long time already, what's the big deal?

[Phillycat]

30. Please don't spread this around!

Excuse me, but I think it's absolutely disgusting to compare homosexuality to a disease. We do a disservice to our party by spreading this around--it is an ignorant statement.

[rinsd]

33. I disagree....

It would be an even lower blow.

"If they were discussing stem cell research, and Kerry said "this is the best chance for the Vice President's own daughter to have a better life, but he refuses to endorse it," we wouldn't be hearing these complaints."

That's alot worse than what he said dealing with her being gay. Also I think there's a cynical strategy behind it. It's been mentioned here several times and supported that by reminding fundies of Cheney's gay daughter that it could help to depress turnout.

[RichardRay]

34. That about covers it, but even beyond that...

Even if sexual preference were a choice, SO WHAT? Even if Ms Cheney were choosing to be a lesbian it would still not be a 'wrong' choice, no more than its not being a preference makes it an 'illness'.

She has sex with whomever she pleases and who pleases her. That's OK with me and seems to be OK with John Kerry. The only reason it wouldn't be OK with someone is if they believe she's ill or wrong.

Sheesh, what's the big deal here?

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY

[Lavender Brown]

36. Would Dick Gephart have responded like this?

If it it were his daughter Kerry mentioned? I doubt it.

[nonkultur]

37. So comparing homosexuality to diabetes

How is that any different from the repugs that called it a mental illness before the 80's?

[nyhuskyfan]

41. In defense of Will...

I don't think he was saying homosexuality = a disease. I think the gist of his point was that if Mary Cheney had been used to make a point on a different political issue, then nobody would be complaining, since it wouldn't be viewed as a cheap shot (the only reason it's being called an unfair tactic is because of prejudiced viewpoints). Using a disease as an analogy might not have been the best choice, but I don't think it ruins the point.

This analogy is more fictional, but maybe it's better -- if Mary Cheney had been born blind, and John Kerry had used her to make a point that the government needed to make sure there was enough money to train seeing-eye dogs, nobody would have been upset.

[nonkultur]

45. Thanks. It is a thin line.

Choice versus Birth still has not been scientifically determined. If it is by birth the first thing repugs will do is claim a cure is needed.

[Phillycat]

47. Not a better analogy.

Gay does not equal blind or any other disability or disease. The most appropriate analogy is if Mary Cheney had been born black--it is a genetic part of her that she has no choice over, and she requires some government protection for her rights because we live in an intolerant bigoted society.

[nonkultur]

49. I think the separation of church and state

arguement would work better than the gentic arguement.

[Phillycat]

44. I totally agree.

[nonkultur]

48. Thank you!

We still do not know if it is a choice or genetic. If it is genetic the repugs will claim we need to "cure" it. How hard would a quarentine be then?

[unfrigginreal]

54. Perhaps you don't know but anyone that is gay does know that it's genetic

Are you having trouble choosing?

[nonkultur]

56. Can you give me proof.

So you are saying Homosexuality is genetic like mental illness or diabetes?

[unfrigginreal]

59. No, it's genetic like boy or girl

but it's obvious that with your opinions, YMMV.

[Phillycat]

57. I think what he/she is trying to say

is that in our rush to be politically correct, we've said that it MUST be genetic. What he/she is trying to say is that, so what if it IS a choice? Is it any less valid than a choice to be heterosexual? Why? It is only less a valid choice if you inherently believe homosexuality has a stigma attached. "They can't help it!" Well, what if they can? I'm willing to defend their right to live as adults in free relationships whichever way.

[nonkultur]

66. I agree with you.

The genetic argument will only lead to medical inhabitation's under the guise of treating a genetic disease.

I plead for everyone not to compare homosexuality to diabetes or any other diseases.

[saracat]

38. What they really seem to be whining about is the so called "intrusion"

into a private matter to make a "political point". I think the battering Kerry about the Bishops and making him defend his Catholicism was far more "personal" as it impacted him directly.But they are allowed "personal attacks". We are not supposed to say anything. This will play out. It is obvious and they can't defend the indefensible. And they can't respin Cheney's daughter as "ungay'! This isn't going to play well with the rednecks because every time they talk about it, they reinforce the fact that Cheney's daughter is gay. Who was Kerry offending, "the liberals"? I don't think so . Let them continue to screw themselves with their base. And people who would be offended, that might feel the issue is being used, wouldn't vote for Kerry anyway!

[mumon]

39. If Mary were an Evangelical Christian...

which I think is the better metaphor: her sexual identity is something she experiences about herself and makes known to people; why should there be any hesitation for someone else to bring up what she, herself, publicly acknowledges?

Oh, yeah, 'cause it makes Bush Cheney look bad.

Tough noogies.

[Duncan Grant]

43. Please don't 'pathologize' GLBT people by comparing us to 'diseases'.

I know your intentions are good but there's nothing wrong with me. I don't have a medical condition. I do suffer from an intolerant and ignorant society.

Let's focus any response to this with the truth. GLBT issues have been EXPLOITED by some GOP political OPPORTUNISTS to maximize their own power and influence. Let's talk about that - and the implications of a constitutional amendment (doomed to failure, btw) which DENIES citizens their rights.

It's an appalling situation created by the right wing fundamentalists. If you want to 'pathologize' someone; start with them.

With appreciation,
94114_San_Francisco

[swcl]

51. The best analogy, imo,

is if Bush had mentioned that THK is an immigrant in response to the immigration question.

I think everyone would suspect that part of tis motivation in bringing it up would have been an appeal to the anti-immigrant crowd. But people who, like me, think it's great that THK is an immigrant, wouldn't be offended. People who are uncomfortable about it would be complaining that it crossed a line to bring it up.

[demokatgurrl]

52. Basically, after every debate, they have nothing

of substance to bring up, so they latch on to something that doesn't (or shouldn't) mean anything. Like the "global" remark, then the "terrorism as a nuisance" remark (from the NY Times since they didn't have anything from the last debate) and now this. It's just to draw attention away from all the BIG LIES Bush told, particularly his giant FLIP FLOP about Bin Laden. :grr:

[MaraJade]

55. Love it!

It's goin' on my Live Journal page tonight!

[Carni]

60. Condense it to "Why are the Cheney's ashamed of their daughter"

NT

[noamnety]

61. I almost put a disclaimer on my post

When I originally posted that, I actually typed the "not equating being gay with having a disease, mind you" disclaimer on it. Then I decided against it, because I thought it was clear that I was not comparing homosexuality to diabetes, but rather comparing a person's circumstances being made better or worse through legislation, and also comparing how judmental people are about the person based on their circumstances.

Perhaps "being tall" would be a better scenario, but it's hard to tie that to an active campaign issue, thus I went with the stem cells.

[Stephanie]

64. Is Mary Cheney unable to speak for herself?

Why is everyone speaking for her?

[noamnety]

70. In the debate they were asked

They were asked to discuss why people are gay.

Now why that's a question in the presidential debate, I'm not sure.

But it does put them in the awkward position of having to speak for gay people to some degree.

[Stephanie]

71. Yes but why is Lynne responding instead of Mary?

When will Mary speak?

[noamnety]

76. It's hard to hear her

Her voice is all muffled ever since she was shoved back in the closet.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

69. The answer lies in what was SAID...where was the "outrageous" remark?

If Lynne Cheney is "outraged," that's her right. I'm outraged by the fact that $2 million is sitting in her husband's bank account as the result of spilled American military blood. That means we now have two outraged people in the world, but I do believe that the sun will set in the West this evening and rise in the East tomorrow.

http://www.debates.org/pages/trans2004d.html

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it.

And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them.

I think we have to respect that.

The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people.

You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth.

Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately.

[Zorra]

72. Republicans almost universally hate GLBT folks. And this controversy

is akin to an admission of this fact.

[mcar]

73. This is it, exactly

Thanks for putting it so clearly and concisely. I've just e-mailed it to a bunch of people.

[nomatrix]

75. Why is this such an issue?

Because the neocons are hypocrites. They could care less about this unless it makes a good hammer.

How about counter it with "name me a job of the 21st century that companies won't outsource that you can go to school for? Make them work for the crap they spew.

[Plaid Adder]

78. Will, I know you're heart's in the right place, but this is not the answer

You can see it in the responses. The two "natural facts of life" you picked as analogies are life-threatening diseases. Being gay is not a disease and it's not life-threatening unless you're surrounded by well-armed homophobes.

The sound bite is very simple: Lynne Cheney is so ashamed of having a lesbian daughter that she can't stand to hear someone else mention it. That's her problem, not Kerry's.

C ya,

The Plaid Adder