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Howard Fineman: Kerry Makes "Nasty Political Point" with Mary Cheney

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liberalpragmatist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:38 PM
Original message
Howard Fineman: Kerry Makes "Nasty Political Point" with Mary Cheney
Fineman actually praises Kerry through most of the article for showing he's a man of faith and sharing some tender moments.

But then he makes a bizarre statement about Kerry's Mary Cheney comment:

"But do you like one who mentions someone else’s child to make a nasty political point? There were no laughs but gasps in the press room when Kerry noted that Vice President Dick Cheney's daughter, Mary, was a lesbian. It came during a discussion of gay marriage. Now, of course, everyone knows something about Mary — she is open about her sexual orientation and has worked in outreach programs to gays and lesbians, and even brought her partner to the vice presidential debate in Cleveland.

Still, what was Kerry's point in hauling her into a discussion of the pros and cons of gay marriage? Was he trying to highlight the fact that the vice president doesn't share the president's support for a constitutional amendment defining marriage as only between a man and a woman? Was he trying to say that Cheney should actively OPPOSE it because of his daughter? Cheney and Kerry actually seem to share the same views."

***

What was so "nasty" about the statement?

Kerry's statement: "We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as.

"I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled
with it."

***

Question: How is saying "we're all God's children" and that homosexuality is an intrinsic part of who someone is - how is that a nasty political point??!
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freedom_to_read Donating Member (623 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
1. And, by contrast, if Kerry had a gay daughter or son...
... do you think the Rethugs would have been as kind?
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otohara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
2. Nasty is What Bill O'Really
allegedly said to his co-worker
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Lex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. The "nasty" is with Bush & Cheney's policies towards homosexuals NOT
Kerry pointing it out by showing how those policies affect Cheney's own flesh and blood.

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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. WTF is this?
Kerry did not hurt Mary Cheney, he gave her a compliment.
Suddenly, the Reich Wing "cares" about Homosexuals?
:argh:
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
5. fineman was on msnbc jumping in with the crowd
he was the one waggin the finger nad shutting up griffin. she wa smocking him, lol lol
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:51 PM
Original message
Is anyone surprised?
I would be surprised if fineman did anything right.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
6. Nasty was the stupid question
I think Kerry responded appropriately.

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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. not as nasty as...
Fineman and Tweety jerking off to Bush in his flight suit.

That was nasty. :puke:

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:44 PM
Response to Original message
8. Hiding her from public view is what's nasty
I don't know how she tolerates it, I wouldn't put up with it for one minute.
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rkc3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
9. Actually, I'm surprised no one has gone further with Kerry's point...
that God made homosexuals.

Kerry didn't actually say it that way, but by saying "we're all God's children" he opened the door for the right to walk through.

Either nobody read his comments the same way I did or Falwell and Robertson don't have the nerve to take the rhetoric to that level (or depth).
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IIgnoreNobody Donating Member (376 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:50 PM
Response to Original message
10. The homophobic response of the media is what I find nasty and shocking.

I really don't see how supposedly educated people - even if they are homophobic - can't see that if there is nothing shameful about being openly gay, there is nothing shameful about mentioning it.
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yardwork Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
11. The moran press GASPED when Kerry said "lesbian" - ?
For once I have absolutely no comment.
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:51 PM
Response to Original message
12. And what's this about calling her a "child"?
She's a 31-year-old woman.
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bucknaked Donating Member (818 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. More phony "outrage" from the right.
Lost all 3 debates, two by huge margins, and this is all they can do.
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dolstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. The only nasty element is the GOP bloc that thinks gays are deviants
NT
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Connie_Corleone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 02:56 PM
Response to Original message
15. Fineman gets it wrong from the start.
The question wasn't about gay marriage. It was about whether being gay is a choice or not. Fineman and the other presstitutes are a bunch of idiots.
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Kali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. presstitutes - good one!
:toast:
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mcg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
16. AlanKeye's said she's practicing ‘selfish hedonism’ and is a 'sinner''

"Illinois Republican Senate candidate Alan Keyes has labeled homosexuality "selfish hedonism" and said Vice President Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter is a sinner."

<http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5897569/>

Where was the uprour from the republicans when Keye's made those nasty comments?

Compare that Kerry saying "we're all God's children".

The reality is that Kerry is calling them on their nastiness and they don't like it.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Who has Fineman's addy--
we need to point out to him that the Cheney's brought the subject out into the open FIRST. And what's wrong with telling the truth? I mean, Kerry was factually correct when he said that Mary Cheney is a lesbian. Meanwhile, Shrub lied his ass off and the press doesn't seem to have a problem with THAT!
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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #18
26. my email to Fineman
and here's his addy:
Newsweek, Howard Fineman, howardfineman@aol.com


Dear Mr. Fineman,

Your discussion of the last Presidential debate was well thought-out and approaches last night's election coverage from a variety of angles. The big story in my mind was incapsulated by how easily and successfully President Bush ducked questions about assault weapons, minimum wage and Roe v. Wade. However, one other question that President Bush ducked was the question regarding whether homosexuality is a CHOICE. The importance of this dodge has philosophical implications, because inbedded in Scheiffer's question are a variety of suppositions regarding inherent human rights and whether or not an Amendment to the Constitution is judicious. I do not expect broadcast media to confront these lofty issues head-on. Inherent human rights and Amendments to the Constitution fall down to the bottom of the list of network media talking points. Philosophy doesn't sell well.

But, even with my low expectations about media priorities, I really did not expect a print journalist (who claims no agenda) to turn Scheiffer's homosexuality question on its head in an effort to mimic party (Cheney) campaign rhetoric. Let's turn to the question itself:

SCHEIFFER: Both of you are opposed to gay marriage. But to understand how you have come to that conclusion, I want to ask you a more basic question. Do you believe homosexuality is a choice?

BUSH: You know, Bob, I don't know. I just don't know. I do know that we have a choice to make in America and that is to treat people with tolerance and respect and dignity. It's important that we do that. And I also know in a free society people, consenting adults can live the way they want to live. And that's to be honored.

But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. I proposed a constitutional amendment. The reason I did so was because I was worried that activist judges are actually defining the definition of marriage, and the surest way to protect marriage between a man and woman is to amend the Constitution. It has also the benefit of allowing citizens to participate in the process. After all, when you amend the Constitution, state legislatures must participate in the ratification of the Constitution. I'm deeply concerned that judges are making those decisions and not the citizenry of the United States. You know, Congress passed a law called DOMA, the Defense of Marriage Act. My opponent was against it. It basically protected states from the action of one state to another. It also defined marriage as between a man and woman. But I'm concerned that that will get overturned. And if it gets overturned, then we'll end up with marriage being defined by courts, and I don't think that's in our nation's interests.

President Bush completely ducks the question, but does not hesitate to discuss how a Federal Constitutional Amendment banning gay marriage in ALL states amounts to tolerance and respect for state 'process' and an individual's dignity. So, the President turns a question about the nature of homosexuality into a question about activist judges.

Now to Senator Kerry's answer to the same question, which you label as nasty and agreeing with Ms. Cheney, also a cheap tawdry political trick. To the answer itself:

SCHIEFFER: Senator Kerry?

KERRY: We're all God's children, Bob. And I think if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as. I think if you talk to anybody, it's not choice. I've met people who struggled with this for years, people who were in a marriage because they were living a sort of convention, and they struggled with it. And I've met wives who are supportive of their husbands or vice versa when they finally sort of broke out and allowed themselves to live who they were, who they felt God had made them. I think we have to respect that.

The president and I share the belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. I believe that. I believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

But I also believe that because we are the United States of America, we're a country with a great, unbelievable Constitution, with rights that we afford people, that you can't discriminate in the workplace. You can't discriminate in the rights that you afford people. You can't disallow someone the right to visit their partner in a hospital. You have to allow people to transfer property, which is why I'm for partnership rights and so forth. Now, with respect to DOMA and the marriage laws, the states have always been able to manage those laws. And they're proving today, every state, that they can manage them adequately.

Senator Kerry actually answers the question posed to him and Mr. Fineman, you call answering the question....'nasty?'

Senator Kerry notes, what everyone who has followed the issue of the Constitutional ban on gay marriage knows: that the President's running mate does not support an Amendment because his daughter is a lesbian. Everyone, who took the time to watch the VP debate, knows that. Did you watch the VP debate and if not, did you bother reading the transcript? Maybe, you should take another look.

Senator Kerry was not being nasty or cheap. By using a salient example, an example that everyone is familiar with, Senator Kerry not only answered Scheiffer's question about whether homosexuality is a choice, but also explained how even someone so closely allied to the President, can have such a fundamentally different view on the issue of a Constitutional ban. Not only is Senator Kerry answering Scheiffer's question--Senator Kerry is also offering a rebuttal to President Bush's discussion of a Constitutional Amendment, by pointing out how marginalized the President is on this issue.

What most of the Media refuse to note is that BOTH Senator Kerry and Vice President Cheney agree that marriage should be between a man and a woman. And on the issue of a Constitutional Amendment, Senator Kerry also aligns himself with the likes of Vice President Cheney and again looks less like an-out-of-the-mainstream-raging-liberal (another topic of the debate), and more like a mainstream caring father (like Cheney)....leaving President Bush in the radical margins on this issue.

If actually answering the question and offering rebuttals, in the form of salient examples, is nothing more than a nasty, tawdry political trick...then maybe, we all need a civics lesson and should do without debates altogether. Nasty indeed.

Very respectfully,
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kaitykaity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
19. Fineman was having withdrawals from his
being a full-time Bush media whore, so he had
to get his fix.

:puke:
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grace0418 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
20. It's only "nasty" if you're a homophobe
if you're an enlightened human being saying someone is gay (who is openly gay and in the public eye) is as nasty as saying someone is left-handed, or Italian, or has blue eyes.
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NewYorkerfromMass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
21. The question was NOT about gay marriage
it was about WHY or HOW are people gay? WTF!?
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cynatnite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
22. What bullshit!
Dickless Cheney and his wife were the ones who brought up their daughter in the first place. They wanted to 'appear' more moderate in order to get more votes.

They opened the door, IMO, and anyone, including Kerry/Edwards, can comment about it.

They both need to shut the fuck up about their so-called outrage. :eyes:
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:18 PM
Response to Original message
23. I think I mentioned this one last night
Evangelicals DO NOT BELEIVE THE BEING GAY IS NOT A CHOICE"

This essentiallly has created a problem for Bush. Evangelicals beleive that homosexuality isa perverted CHOICE, made by people under the effects of the satanic.

Evangelicals use the New Testament language of casting out a "spirit of homosexuality" by the power of Christ.

This "spirit of homosexuallity" is biblical language for a demon of homosexuality, and that demonic possesion is the cause of homosexuality. The lifestyle of the person who becomes a homosexual is responsible for the "spirit of homosexuality" possesing them. To the evangelical homosexuality is the result of the choice of the person who chooses to live a certain lifestyle, The lifestyle that they are surrounded by results in the "spirit of homosexuality" taking over the life of thed person.


What does thissay about the lifestyle that Dick Cheney exposed his daughter to that allowed the "spirit of homosexuality" to possess his daughter. After all, Lynn Cheney wrote a lesbian based novel. Perhaps the VP is not the sterling figure that he is presented as if his daughter was exposed to the "spirit of homosexuality, in the loving conservative Cheney home.

Plus, Bushs statement came too dangerously close to admitting that homosexuals do not "CHOOSE" to be homosexuals. His statement that he didnt know would be taken rather amiss by his evengelical supporters. If Bush is a good evangelical he must KNOW that a homosexual is not born, but made by choces. Jesus must cast out that spirit of homosexuality.

By connecting Cheney's daughter with Bush's answer "I dont know" he will create some consternation among strongly evangelical Christians. Bush has just become very wishy washy about an issue which his evangelical base has no doubts about.

If Kerry's baiting Bush into answering in a way that will alienate even a small percentage of his base, if they decide that Bush has wavered in his evangelical fervor and not vote for Bush but perhaps for the ultra christian Constitution Party, this will only be an advantage to Kerry.
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eurolefty Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:26 PM
Response to Original message
24. Nasty librul blasphemy
Saying "We're all God's children." That's nasty and political?
I guess the right-wingers would like to say "We're all God's children, except..."
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progressivebydesign Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:30 PM
Response to Original message
25. It's the "L-word".. the GOP can't handle it.
They can hang with gay.. that is fairly generic. When someone says LESBIAN on tv, it just gets the republicans sooo flustered. I guess it's too graphic for them. WHen they talk about "gay", it can be imagined, by the oh-so-sensitive republicans that this merely means someone with a flair for decorating, and a long-time friend. The word lesbian forces them to think about sex, and the GOP is just NOT about sex (unless it's really skanky, perverted stuff that they get busted for later).

It's the lesbian thing. They just can't handled... 'what will we tell the children??', etc.
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BlueNomad Donating Member (494 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:39 PM
Response to Original message
27. howard fineman
... is one of my least favorite people on the planet...and that haircut drives me insane...he's so full of shit...when IMUS pressed Bob Schieffer on the gay thing and asked if people in the hall were shocked he as much as said no--remarking that the response he remembered most was everyone laughing about Kerry's comment about marrying up ala teresa....these whoremongering media types kill me --give me a break...what's up with the weak new found sense of faux etiquette?. Ooooh I'm so offended. Get unoffended she's a lesbo. Big whoop we already knew that. If they're embarrassed by it, that's their problem in more ways than one. Going out on the stump whining and crying about is just one more reason for their psychopath base to stay home in protest.
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Senator Lamb Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. my take
my college had a debate room set up to watch the debate. when john kerry said that line everyone went "ooooooooooh" like he hurled a "dis". i really didnt care but I think the way he said it made it sound like an insult. however the rest of the debate I really enjoyed Kerry and feel proud to support him.
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Oreo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Oct-14-04 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. Good point from a rightwing site
My personal opinion is the more they talk about it the better. It's painfully obvious that only homophobes would see this as an attack.
I only see this splitting the republican party between moderates and extremists. Guess which side * is on?

So here's something I found on a rightwing site that gets all their talking points from the freep (timebomb2000)

(Talking about Lynn Cheney)

If she wanted to be indignant, she could have said something about all the horrible things Alan Keyes said about her daugher a month ago!

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