According to CNN, we've just launched a major offensive in Fallujah...

[ThePhilosopher04]

timing quite suspect IMO.

[takumi]

1. Stupid, Desperate F*s

[forgethell]

2. Why? n/t

[soleft]

3. Last day before Ramadan right?

[spinbaby]

10. Pre-emptive strike

They're expecting trouble on Ramadan so they're trying to pound Iraqis into submission before it starts.

[Ducks In A Row]

4. A distraction so people forget Cheney's daughter is gay

it's so stupid

[freetobegay]

5. timing quite suspect?

I don't think so. We knew it was coming!

[cynatnite]

6. Check this article

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~2460184,00.html


WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration will delay major assaults on rebel-held cities in Iraq until after U.S. elections in November, say administration officials, mindful that large-scale military offensives could affect the U.S. presidential race.


So what gives?

[takumi]

8. Passive-Aggressive Disorder

[apnu]

what gives?

when his numbers slouch the chimp goes to war

[janx]

7. Wait a minute--

Weren't we promised NO MORE major offensives until after the election?

[madfloridian]

11. Well, janx, our guys said we should not hold back.

I have heard Kerry say and I heard Clark say it....so Bush decided not to hold back....dammit it all.

[janx]

15. This makes me sick, MF.

:cry:

[madfloridian]

17. I saw the soldier so proudly bragging on CNN...and I wept also.

:cry:

[GreenArrow]

23. pride goeth

before a fall.

[July]

24. Not happy about attacks, but

you just pointed out that Bush is now following Clark's and Kerry's advice.

[madfloridian]

28. Yep, and it breaks my heart.

I have no words except anger right now.

[incapsulated]

29. Bullshit

You are trying to confuse the reaction to the initial pullback, months ago, with what is going on now.

Months ago, Marines were fighting and dying, surrounding the city and could have moved in to take it. It was quickly becoming a base of operations for attacks and what they were doing made some sense, in any case once they started it certainly made sense to finish the job. Instead they were told to stand down, and they dressed up a bunch of people, half of them thugs for hire who had just been shooting at them, and called them the militia that would "patrol" the city. Obviously this was insane, and Fallujah became base camp #1 for everything from insurgents to criminal gangs. The Marines where pissed off and felt that they had taken casualties for nothing, and that they were in a position to take the city.

It was stupid to pull out then, and Kerry and Clark and many others have made that point. And they are correct. The situation has changed now, and neither man has said that in response to what is going on now.

[madfloridian]

30. Kerry said it in the debate.

What we are doing here may seem right and tough and strong, but I don't think you can defend the indefensible anymore. We attacked the wrong country, and now we are making it worse by trying to kill more of them!!

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_2421672

Last week in debate, John Kerry - until recently, the antiwar candidate too eager to galvanize dovish Democrats - suddenly reversed field, and came down on the side of the military hard-liners. ''What I want to do is change the dynamics on the ground,'' Kerry volunteered. ''And you have to do that by beginning to not back off of Fallujah and other places and send the wrong message to terrorists. You've got to show you're serious.''

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4646042
A lot of Clark's comments on Fallujah and not backing down.

On Edit:
I always have to remind folks that we donated to Kerry and are voting for him. This is my country, too, and I have a right and a duty to call my leaders to task when they are wrong.

[incapsulated]

31. Clarks comments were from March 31

Fallujah could be taken then, we had it surrounded, and we backed off. He assesment was completely correct for the situation on the ground at the time.

How you read Kerry's statement depends entirely on where you stand. I take his statement as a reference to the pullout back in the spring, and the message it sent, and he is correct. They took it as a great victory, and set up the city as a base camp, confident that the US military didn't want to set foot inside.

[madfloridian]

32. I take both comments to mean that more will die for no reason.

I don't see how you can say otherwise. We did not have to go there, and now that we are there we are going to kill more? Ok.

[incapsulated]

33. Aside from a total pull out, what do YOU suggest they do?

Honesty. As long as there are US soldiers on the ground, and they are being attacked from Fallujah, and car bombs are being set off killing civilians by the hundreds all over the Sunni triangle, and they can trace the origins to that city, what should they do?

I'm not talking about pulling out of Iraq, because that isn't going to happen, even under a Kerry admin. Let's say Kerry is in office, what does he do about this situation?

I'm not defending what Bush is doing, I just think that we have to start thinking, seriously, about the situation Kerry is going to inherit if he wins, and for him, a pullout is clearly not an option.

[madfloridian]

38. I don't know what I believe anymore. I know we should not be there.

Of course we are not going to pull out. I almost wish we would, though. I did not feel that way at first, but now I realize fully that our Democrats agree that Iraq is the gateway to mideast.

I feel sick.

[incapsulated]

41. I don't believe that

I do believe that Kerry and others honestly believe that pulling out, without at least an attempt to try to stabilize the country beforehand, would be a recipe for even more bloodshed and civil war, possibly spreading beyond Iraq's borders.

I'm not saying that it is going to be sucessful, the situation has deteriorated to the point that it may be impossible. But I don't think that Kerry has anything in common with the neo-imperialists who view Iraq as some sort of stepping stone to a takeover of the region.

The whole situation is sicking, and it is Bushco's fault. The question is, what do we do about it if we inherit it.

[madfloridian]

9. Well, our guys have been saying we can't hold back.

So dammit, we can not but accept the blame for the dead. Who said not to hold back in places like Fallujah....not to back down. Our own Democrats.

My heart is breaking, and my country should be ashamed.

So, who is going to speak out for the dead in Fallujah....you know...the ones who did NOT attack us?

[Rockholm]

12. Did I hear recently that all hell will break out if...

we go into Fallujah?

[doni_georgia]

37. Let's see - waging an all out assault on Iraq's most holy city on the eve

of Ramadan . . . sounds like typical Bush logic to me.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

13. Well it all depends on who they are "assaulting" eom

[necso]

14. But is it real?

And, if so, will it turn out to be some "out of control" units again -- or part of the "plan".

Maybe this will hinge on whether or not it turns out to be another fiasco.

[madfloridian]

16. "when you lose your values in order to win...."

Well, just see my sig line. How many will we kill there who did NOT attack us.....a country which was no danger?

We lost our values.....we may win....but we have lost our souls as a country.

[gumby]

18. What happened to Mission Accomplished?

This is really, really horrible. I read an article about a S. Hersh speech and he was saying that the war was already lost and the fighting that's going on now is really a civil war that Boosh is hiding by blaming it on "insurgents" and "terraists."

[Love Bug]

19. I know someone who's son is outside Fallujah right now (Marine)

:(

[CityHall]

20. Maybe that's what * wanted to talk to Kerry about

[The Wielding Truth]

44. Doubt it. Seems Rummy just went over to size things up and

my guess Rove said take down Fallujah it will make George look good. More of the same. Bump and run. Put in Iraqi police , then settle. We've seen it many times . Not enough troops to smash everything at once. What a mess. Bush has totally lost his credibility no matter what else happens in US or elsewhere. Get them out and let Kerry handle it. At least he'll tell us the truth.

[GR]

21. If Americans Must Die To Insure Bush's Reelection, So Be It...

Isn't that how he thinks...They're just poor folks anyway, not real people....

[madfloridian]

22. Our own Democrats said not to hold back.

I am sorry, but this is not just Bush's war anymore.

[ewagner]

25. Battle will be bloody

and take more than a week (no inside knowledge here, just from what I've heard the military leaders say)...

here's Dubya's reasoning: Battle will be bloody but we have overwhelming firepower at our disposal and we will prevail no matter what. Just in time for the election, Bush will claim the victory in Falleuja and declare that "his leadership" has broken the back of the "terrorists". This will be followed without taking a breath with the infamous "freedom is on the march" diatribe.

The danger of course is that the casualties will be very high or the offensive will get bogged down. But Bush* has nothing to lose. He's behind in the polls and his internals are telling him he's lost the election so the offensive is a "hail mary" for his campaign.

Just my guess about the timing..

[Jacobin]

26. Yeah. I'd say the Iraqis find the U.S. pretty offensive alright

:-(

[PretzelWarrior]

27. what do you mean "WE" white man?

?

[julialnyc]

34. and....

QAIM, Iraq (AP) -- American troops stationed along Iraq's border with Syria are coming under increasing mortar attack from shells fired from Syrian territory, but it's unclear who's responsible, U.S. officers said Thursday.

The 82 mm mortar rounds have been fired at U.S. and Iraqi positions in and around Husaybah in the far west of Iraq's Anbar province, said Lt. Col. Chris Woodbridge, commander of the 1st Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment. . .

There has been no evidence linking the Syrian military to the attacks, he said. However, the Syrian military has the capability to determine who is launching the mortars and act against them, Woodbridge said.

``Syrian authorities should be the ones to go after them, no question about it,'' he said.

The mortar attacks come at a time of increased U.S. pressure on Syria to stem cross-border infiltration and movement of militants into Iraq.'

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/international/AP-Iraq-Syria.html

[many a good man]

35. I say kill the killers before they kill us!

Or better yet, even before they start thinking that they might develop the intention to kill us in the future. Wait. No! Woody's philosophy is starting to rub off on me. Sorry.

The question boils down to: are we making things worse by staying there? So far yes. Right now it seems we're killing more civilians (women and children) than we are insurgents. Kerry needs to make one strong effort to fix this mess and give peace a chance before we pull up stakes and betray the Iraqi people once again. Kerry has to dig deep and use all of his creativity and intelligence and diplomatic skills to turn this disaster around. He needs international (and Arab) support and a realistic plan for reconstruction and sovreignty that Iraqis can buy into to avert civil war and partitioning. If he can't do it in one year he has to pull out and let the chips fall where they may.

I just hope to God these bastards are honorable enough to turn over the reins to the Kerry beginning November 3rd! Large portions of the national security bureaucracy are already in revolt against this criminal administration. They have to clean house in the Pentagon and exterminate the place from that wing of generals who are marching to the neocons' orders. They're probably the same ones who gave Clinton and Clark so much trouble. Kerry has to reorganize the Pentagon and appoint the next three or four justices to the Supreme Court if this country wants to have any hope in the 21st century...

[Malva Zebrina]

36. Fallujah or no

battle strategy, getting all hepped up with the killing and the bombing, support the troops who are carrying out the killing order]

Admit it--we can have ten "fallujahs" with the RIGHT strategy of bombing and killing and devastation

Nothing at this point will be the salve to heal Iraq

Admit it

We have lost that war.

I only hope that Kerry when elected, can straighten it out and stop this slaughter and this scorched earth philosophy. Marines or no Marines

We have lost this war and there is absolutely NO sense in continuing on with strategies that kill children and innocent people and that will NOT work! We can bomb Fallujah into the ground

It will not cause us to win the war--we have lost this war.

Bombing Fallujah in revenge for a failed attack, will not do a thing but look good to the barbarians who support Bush and the gung ho Marines who insist they were not given a fair chance to win Fallujah.

Just as in Somalia--another failed mission.

[Joefess]

39. The great diversion continues...

A diversion from last nights debate defeat and from this -> http://www.heraldtribune.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041014/API/410140859

[maxsolomon]

40. THIS is the october surprise?

with fallujah under US control, and najaf "pacified", bush can claim that iraq has "returned to normalcy" or some such tripe.

they must not have OBL on ice.

[arbusto_baboso]

42. This will backfire big-time, when American body bags start piling up....

It's just too bad that has to happen to try to save Bush's morally bankrupt administration. Weep for our people in uniform, and DO NOT forget this on election day!

[coloradochanger]

43. Bush Allies Smear Kerry

I get Mideast news off of www.haaretzdaily.com, a liberal Israeli newspaper. They've got an add for Bush by RAIsrael, Republicans Abroad in Israel. I went to the groups website and they've got a parody "Kerry's band of Brothers" showing him, Arafat, Bin Laden, the whole Max Cleland strategy. I e-mailed RAIsrael a complaint saying it was lowering the discourse, trying to shame them. I doubt it'll work, but might as well try it, unless you all'd like to do a virtual sit-in instead. See the website at http://www.raisrael.org/index.aspx and contact them at [e-mail]. I'd advise against complaining against Haaretz, though. They have Kerry adds to, and their one of the more enlightened newspapers in Israel, sort of like the NYT.

[newyawker99]

45. Hi coloradochanger!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[bread_and_roses]

46. The feeble puppet has the resolve to kill small children

and other helpless civilians.

And I too am dismayed to hear no word of objection from the Democrats. This "war" is nothing but the slaughter of civilians for political gain and to perpetrate a lie.