In defense of Raven

[ewagner]

I refrained from joining the posts last night where DUer Raven was being bashed for saying that she thought Bush won the debate. If you read her original post it was because the canvassing work she's been doing has given her some insight about how the freeper minds work. I understood what she was saying and in the context of her experience she was right.

I've had a guilty conscience for not jumping into the fray last night. I just don't think she deserved the negative comments she received.

jmho.

[sandnsea]

1. The problem

She could have simply said, we have to work every day because these debates don't win elections. Just like the work doesn't mean anything if you're negative about your candidate. They go together. Last night was a night to celebrate. 343, sweep, the rally in Iowa had it right. Momentum.

Now everybody, work a tenth as hard as John and Teresa and John and Elizabeth are, and we'll win this thing easily.

[JI7]

4. agree, most people didn't think we had the election wrapped up

but that sure doesn't mean we can't be happy about the small victories we make along the way. and bush sure didn't win that debate. she didn't say we still have to work hard. she said kerry lost the debate. and that is not the case.

[stellanoir]

2. though I missed the post. . .

totally love Raven.

[Forkboy]

3. The Kerrybots* demand lockstep cheerleading

*A creature very similiar to the Bushbots.It tolerates no deviance from the party line.Actual opinions are not welcome.Poms poms are free of charge so long as you just agree with them on everything.

[RafterMan]

5. Look

We've had endless time to work out these divisions.

Now there's only three weeks left to legally remove the Tyrant from office. Is there any critique so important that it won't wait that long? Like it or not, there's only one ticket out of here.

Pass the pom-poms.

[sandnsea]

6. Yes, Forkboy, yes we do

And if you think I've been a bitch to date, hold on because I plan to get worse. We've got less than 3 weeks. It's time to fall in line and win this damned election. And THAT is what Raven meant, I just disagree with her approach.

Where are you canvassing this weekend?

[Forkboy]

7. "hold on because I plan to get worse. "

I find that impossible to believe.

[sandnsea]

20. Oh honey

You just don't know, you really don't.

Where are you canvassing this weekend, seriously, I'm curious.

[Forkboy]

21. I'm not canvassing this weekend

You just don't know, you really don't.

I suspect I do.

[sandnsea]

24. So you don't participate?

Just the cynic, laughing and ridiculing everything, is that it?

[Forkboy]

26. I'm far too busy creating new post-Marxist phrases

if only I was a great defender of freedom like you others :-(

[sandnsea]

27. What do you defend?

When you're not creating new post-Marxist phrases, which I never said you did in the first place.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

30. Then what's your purpose?

You have a purpose, don't you? If you don't give a shit, why not let everybody else have their jollies and leave them in peace?

[Forkboy]

31. Where did I claim to not give a shit?

[sandnsea]

32. I asked if you participate

People who give a shit usually participate.

[Forkboy]

33. Is canvassing the only way one can participate?

You really should give up on this "more liberal than thou" angle.

[sandnsea]

37. haha

Can't answer a simple question. Are you just a self-indulgent cynic or do you participate? What's so hard about that?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

41. Still no answer

Okay, so you don't canvass. Why do you come here at all if you're just going to piss on everybody? If you don't care what anybody here thinks? What's your purpose? You participate, great. I asked how. What's so tough about telling me?

This isn't a dick swinging contest, it's about the entire world and the destructive path George Bush has put it on. No time for dick swinging, that's the whole point of telling people to either get in line or get out of the way.

[Forkboy]

42. No,it most certainly is a dick swinging contest

Your attempt to insinuate and portray me as something I'm not is Bush-like (remember him,the guy you say you hate?).I explained why telling you is pointless.You can accept it or not :shrug:

I come here to learn,and learn I do.All kinds of things...good and bad.I especially like that most DUers welcome differing opinions.Sadly,some choose to act in a manner worthy of the Freepers when confronted with them.

As for pissing on everybody...have you ever thought about YOUR posting history? :eyes:

PS-I said I wasn't canvassing THIS WEEKEND.Take that as you will.Again,your approval is meaningless to me.I worry about people who are worth worrying about.You haven't illustrated much to qualify.

[sandnsea]

45. I haven't portrayed you as anything

You did that all by yourself. As I've said 100 times, opinions on issues are always great to discuss, trashing the candidate is nothing more than self-indulgent grandiosity. I don't have alot of patience with grandiose people, we've got one of them in the White House and I thought the point was to get him out.

[Julien Sorel]

22. Nadirites don't canvas.

They are far too busy creating new post-Marxist phrases to dirty themselves with such a proletarian task.

[Forkboy]

23. So many big words yet still shockingly wrong

Consistant though.

[foo_bar]

35. 'consistent'

[Forkboy]

36. lol...thanks...I'm a consistently bad speller

[Julien Sorel]

39. Hey, you should debate in Bush's place next time.

Same style: just blurt something out, repeatedly. It's the "consistant" thing to do.

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Julien Sorel]

43. Oh, I disagree.

You have thousands of posts here proving otherwise.

[Forkboy]

44. Yeah,and you're a model of intelligence and diplomacy

:eyes:

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

14. Dont be jealous

[sonicx]

11. it made no sense to say that kerry lost or tied

bush was better than before and yes kerry missed some openings, but kerry still won. even if you account for bush being dumb and inarticulate.

and duh, of course we have to GOTV. that goes without saying. kerry still won the debate.

[nonconformist]

15. Opinions are welcome but if someone disagrees with you they will debate it

What's wrong with that?

[Forkboy]

16. nothing

I refer to the ones that are scared of the debating itself.

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[grace0418]

8. By the time I came back to it

the thread had been locked, so I apologized to Raven and Will via pm. But since there's a new thread, I will apologize in public. I didn't agree with the bashing, I was agreeing with the frustration, but in my haste what I wrote "AMEN TO THAT" in my subject line and made it appear that I agreed with the bashing. I'm very sorry for that. Does that make sense?

Anyway, I don't like being called a Kerrybot anymore than others like being called morons. My frustration was in coming here and seeing that thread and another thread about how good Bush was the first thing after the debates. I found it frustrating because it seems like the freepers are looking for anything they can against us, and here we were giving them that very information. The more we argue about what Kerry did wrong, the more ammo we give them. Look at the way we gleefully post over here when freepers start freaking out about Bush screwing up. It gives us great joy and boosts our confidence to see the freepers getting worried. So why do we want to give them the same satisfaction?

Believe me, it took a lot of convincing for me to go from an ABB to a Kerry supporter. And I still don't agree with him on every issue. So I'm hardly a Kerrybot. But neither am I willing to give the right wing a shred of evidence to use against Kerry or people that support him.

It's going to be sooooooooooo hard for the next couple of weeks. BushCo is going to try every trick in the book to steal this election. If we can't stick together how are we going to overcome them/

[sr_pacifica]

9. They were rough on her

I was surprised by the venom. Frankly, I don't see why there was this feeling of "you're raining on our parade." Her's was a minority opinion. There were plenty of people that were joyous about Kerry's performance. It was as though her one dissenting opinion was threatening. Jeesh.

[Forkboy]

13. Cha ching

[grace0418]

18. I think it was just that people kept responding to it

so it kept shooting up to the top. So it seemed bigger than perhaps it was.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

12. Old shit freshly stirred.

[Droopy]

17. There's a statement I can agree with

Let's give it a rest people.

[necso]

19. Concur.

[DemBones DemBones]

25. Yes. Let it be. nt

[leftofthedial]

34. yes. let's all start acting like we have IQ's of 60

because that's what freepers are like.

that's roughly the criterion for believing the little bushturd won the debate.

All he did, AT BEST, was pander to his own base, who weren't gonna vote for Kerry anyway.

Kerry, on the other hand snagged a whole bunch more "undecideds."

I love Raven. You rock, woman.

But you were dead wrong in claiming bush won. Laughably, in controvertibly wrong.

[Moderator]

46. Locking... (please review the rules)

"Do not start a new discussion thread with the purpose of "calling out" another member or picking a fight with another member. "
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules.html#civility