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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:29 PM
Original message
Soros says "Matter of Life and Death." But, Who Beats Bush is Issue!
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 07:09 PM by WiseMen
George Soros has decided that it is "a matter of life and death" to get rid of Bush in 2004. A lot of us here on DU agree. Soros has already given 10 million dollars in August to 'America Coming Together' a get-out-the-vote 527 organization, and 2.5 million dollars to MoveOn.org. Soros says he supports Dean, Clark or Kerry equally. The issue is getting rid of Bush. And Soros is not alone.

So, with 527 orgs able of raise a ton of money to defeat Bush, Dean having a a lot of money or Dean and Kerry “opting out” of campaign finance should not be a relevant issue except as it affects the primaries. The real issue is back to WHO IS THE BEST CANDIDATE to go against the Republicans.

We at DU represent the “thinking” class of the Democratic Party. It is time for tough-minded decisions free of sentimental attachments to any given candidate.

I think the weight of the evidence to date indicates that Dean will be relatively weak on the test of Credibility as Commander-In-Chief in this post 9/11 environment, and is less likely win against G.W. Bush.

With that assumption we really have to choose between Senator John Kerry and General Wesley Clark. It is really our responsibility to steer the debate to a choice between these two candidates. If we don’t want one, we have to choose the other.

THAT, SADLY, HAS NOT BEEN THE FOCUS OF MEDIA ATTENTION NOR POPULAR BOARD SUCH AS DU.

So here I try to begin an analysis of how they stack up!

Policy Record

Kerry has a 2 decade senate record of speeches and legislation covering a wide array of domestic and foreign policy issues.

Clark has a strong record in speeches and action in military and foreign policy but no significant record relative to domestic policy issues (health care, taxation, jobs etc)

The breath of Kerry public record makes him a better candidate on that score in that he can run on a record on a wider variety of issues

Sumary: Kerry trumps Clark

Foreign Policy

Clark and Kerry are very similar and both worked in the 90’s for a foreign policy that Kerry calls “progressive internationalism” and argue for proactive humanitarian military intervention in the Balkan.

Both can be assumed to be very strong in both theory and practice. Kerry’s policy strength derives principally from 18 years on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and his stint as Chairman of the Subcommittee on Terrorism, Narcotics, and International Operations. At the same time he has a long history of hands-on involvement in military affairs starting with his two tours (6 years) in Vietnam.

Clark, as a General, could be thought to be shallow in foreign policy theory, but his major posts as Commander in Chief of the United States Southern Command and then as Nato Supreme Allied Commander were essentially senior diplomatic positions negotiating and implementing U.S. foreign policy objectives.

Summary Kerry=Clark

Progressive Domestic Issues

John Kerry has the highest scores among almost all democratic leaders for his environmental record and for issues affecting the working poor. For thirty years Kerry has fought for labor rights, women’s rights and campaign finance reform. Kerry’s record is solid on education and social security. Despite significant political cost, Kerry has opposed capital punishment, the NRA and all the fat-cat special interest lobby groups camped out in Washington.

Few senators have maintained a record so widely regarded as above reproach. John Kerry’s legendary indifference to special interest initiatives has been widely slammed as arrogance, aloofness and neglect of his “constituents.”

Wesley Clark’s record and views on social issues can only be gleaned from his actions and statements regarding education, health-care and social relations in the military service. Appear to be moderate-liberal.

Clark’s stints at Washington assignments (White House Fellow and as Special Assistant at OMB) should provide him with some grasp of domestic policy issues. Unfortunately, his lack of policy positions prior to entry into the race makes it difficult to conclude what his strong commitments are on most of these issues.

Summary: Kerry trumps Clark

Military Experience

Kerry has a storied military record with noted acts of battlefield sacrifice and bravery. His 6 years of duty included some of the most dangerous missions in the war. Kerry received the Bronze Star, Silver Star and 3 Purple Hearts for his Vietnam service.

Kerry, however, became very critical of U.S. tactics in the execution of the war even while he was in the battlefield and, after the end of his 2nd Tour, threw all efforts into ending the conflict. Some have questioned Kerry ability to make tough military decisions given his vehement opposition to the military establishment in the 70’s.

Clark served in a brief (1yr) tour in Vietman and left the battlefield severely wounded. Clark received the Silver Star. Since, Clark has serve in varied desk and senior command positions in the military, and retired from the military, after winning the brief war in Kosovo, as 4 Star Nato Supreme Allied Commander.

Clark’s record of command appears to be stellar. His post-Vietnam awards include numerous medals and commendations including honorary Knighthoods from the British and Dutch governments, commander of the French Legion of Honor. In August 2000, President Clinton awarded General Clark with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor.

Kerry’s military experience probably left him a legacy of dreadful battlefield memories and a consciousness of the human cost of war. Clark’s life of military service likely provides supreme confidence of command.

Summary: Clark trumps Kerry

. . . . . . . . . . ..

Comments please. BE WISE!

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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
1. Soros said:
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 06:32 PM by Padraig18
On Wolf Blitzer this afternoon that Dean, Clark and Kerry would all makes excellent POTUS's.

That's what George Soros thinks, WiseMen.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
13. So... "WiseMen" thinks he's smarter than George Soros, huh?
I think that speaks volumns all by itself.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. You would be surprised! Supporting and confidence re CIC role separate.

Supporting Dean and confidence regarding the chances against Mr. Bush are separate issues. The policy "positions" of the three are not significantly different, regardless of campaign positioning.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. So, you think you have better and more info than George Soros?
You think you're smarter than George Soros and you think you have better data than George Soros, too.

Keep talkin.'
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #21
36. George Soros' sttement was without qualification, WiseMen.
He said they would ALL make excellent POTUS-es --- NO 'conditions'.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:38 PM
Response to Original message
2. Soros=WISE
Smart guy that George! He has analyzed them and come to the correct conclusion.

He BE WISE! :7
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diamond14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
3. many Americans will NOT vote for a military general...especially
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 06:45 PM by amen1234


after colin powell's abysmal failure in the diplomatic and peace-making arena....IMO, colin sealed that deal, at least for a while...Clark doesn't have the financial/political skills to win...he didn't even run in Iowa....and WE need more than just military might, and experience in military commands...we need diplomacy, experience in passing budgets, experience in negotiation on the hill...experience in government...

Kerry holds wide appeal with American Veterans, having FOUGHT hard for proper medical care/benefits for OUR Veterans for many many years....Kerry can heal the wounds from Vietnam and solve the Iraqnam mess....

http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/energy/

A Cleaner and Greener America
Throughout his career, John Kerry has been a top leader on the environment, fighting to clean up toxic waste sites, to keep our air and water clean, and to protect the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and other pristine wilderness areas. In addition to supporting important environmental initiatives, John Kerry has turned a spotlight on the Bush Administration’s rollbacks of our hard-won environmental gains and their outdated, old-economy notions that our environment must be sacrificed in the name of short-term profit. John Kerry has the courage to take on the polluters that are trying to gut our clean air and water laws.John Kerry has the vision to create a new Manhattan Project to make America independent of Middle East oil in 10 years by creating alternative fuels like ethanol and making cars more efficient. We’ll create half a million new jobs here at home at the same time – and we’ll never have to send our sons and daughters to war for Mideast oil.




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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Colin Powell doesn't even come close
to Clark in comparison. We shall see who the American people vote for.

Kerry is running on "his" military carreer too...don't forget his commercial wuth the aircraft carrier.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #7
30. Powel is known to belittle Clark.
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kovasb Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. he is also known to heap praise on him
Powell in performance review: “The rater does not overstate. Wes Clark has been a superb battalion commander and will be a superb brigade commander. He is an officer of the rarest potential and will clearly rise to senior general office rank. He will be one of the Army’s leaders in the 1990’s.”

Of course in this crowd this is probably a bad thing
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HumanPatriot Donating Member (55 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message
4. Clark CANNOT trump Kerry...
All his accomplishments are recieved during service while he was following orders, and hence, are irrelevant and a non-issue since he has no personal responsibility for his actions while serving (which explains the dismissmal of his transgressions).

Hence, Clark has absolutely no record to go up against anyone...at least Kerry was a senator. Clark cannot be a hero without being a murderer at the same time, because you cannot have it both ways regarding his personal responsibility for his actions.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
34. Why Do you think Clark is rising in NH. Peception = Reality
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:41 PM
Response to Original message
5. I agree with your analysis but
you left out an important component

which one can attract more swing voters??
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #5
29. Honestly
I think both Clark and Kerry could. Dean appears to be a "love him" or "hate him" person/candidate for many. Clark, Kerry and even Gephardt or Edwards would be able to attract swing voters.
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #5
38. Are you saying Clark OR Kerry can attract swing voters.
I would think Clark.
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Hoppin_Mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
6. Poo ! ONLY Dean can attract those who feel disenfranchised
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 06:43 PM by Hoppin_Mad
Well DK too, but he would lose too many swing voters.
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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:37 PM
Response to Reply #6
24. Have you calculated how many
swing voters we can afford to lose?
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. Kerry has a small advantage: the most substantive record for the poor
and disenfranchised.
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 06:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. Remember when Bush was pushing his legislation
through Congress sometimes an hour or two after print, sometimes even BEFORE it was put into print form? Our senators and representatives, Kerry among them, were voting to pass legislation without ever reading it, much less studying it.

In my opinion, this was highly irresponsible of them and bad judgement. Kerry says he wasn't told the truth. Well, I'm sorry, but it is his job to find out the truth, show responsiblity, and use good judgement when making decisions.


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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #8
26. Hey, guess you are condemning most of Congress and the UN
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patricia92243 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. The first time I ever saw Dean - on some short ten minute clip - I said
"that's the guy to beat bush".
then I didn't know much about him, but my gut feeling was that he is our guy - and I have never changed my mind. If just good credential won a race, George Bush would not be prez. 'there has to be that certain something, and Dean has it.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. same here
I saw his speech in Sacramento on CSPAN and could tell he had it.

I have supported him for a year now and still have the feeling
he will win next fall.

It seemed unlikely at the time but I could tell he had the skills.

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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 07:17 PM
Response to Original message
10. you forgot the experience that clark has and kerry doesn't
as a lobbyist. so much for complaints about the revolving door...
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lovedems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
11. I like Clark and Dean. It surprises me all of the negativity these two
seem to receive on DU. There are people who always want to point out their inconsistencies and imperfections. I can't remember ever having a "perfect candidate" from any party and there isn't one of our nine who are perfect but I like them just the same. I will vote for whoever gets the nomination because I think a chimp could beat the chimp.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Maybe "a chimp could beat the chimp" but why do we want

a chimp in the White House?

I don't want to replace Bush with someone who'll be a little bit better.

I want to replace Bush with someone who will be a whole lot better.

I don't want Howard Dean because of his record, his arrogance, his habitual lies and gaffes.
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adadem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. I'm with you
I want experience in domestic and foreign affairs.
I want integrity, honesty and moral value.
I want to be proud of my country again.
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jmaier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
25. kudos
I feel exactly the same way. I hope that we are simply practicing this sort of mean-spiritedness here for use against Shrub in the GE.
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 07:52 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dean just has to get one of these others as V.P. They both will say no
now but Yes eventually. It happens all the time
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #12
17. You make the false assumption that people who can't support

Howard Dean will support him if he has John Kerry or Wesley Clark "attached" to him as VP nominee. Many of us will not support Dean in a VP slot, much less at the top of the ticket. We don't need another arrogant little liar in the White House.
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. We all want Bush out don't we. You going to vote green?
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:04 PM
Response to Original message
15. Military Experience
Kerry's service to the military did not end at the speech he made in front of the Senate so many years ago.

He's fought and stood up for veteran's issues. I believe Clark would do the same but Kerry has actually done it in the Senate for many years, reaching across the aisle, this record should not be overlooked.
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onecitizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
19. That did it.........
I'm convinced now. So glad you posted this cause I had no idea what I would do until now. I've just been drifting along, not knowing anything about any of these candidates. But you came along and made the decision easy for me. Wow, thanx.
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Clark4VotingRights Donating Member (795 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
22. Did I miss where you mentioned
-The other medals Clark's won? (Purple heart...)

-The fact that Kerry is on record voting to invade Iraq?

-Academic accomplishments?

-History with and vision for minorities?
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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-12-04 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Hey Guy. Clark got 1 purple heart. Rather insignificant compared with
Edited on Mon Jan-12-04 09:36 PM by Raya
other awards that Wisemen listed for Clark.

Really, Kerry's is really the war hero here having dozens of brushes with death over 6 years of combat. I think Clark was in direct combat about 6 months before being wounded. NOT TO DEMINISH THAT. But, the Purple Heart thing really is about combat blood.
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Clark4VotingRights Donating Member (795 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #23
31. Oh, I didn't realize that gushing blood in battle from 4 bullet wounds
And still leading his men and spending time in the hospital
getting his hand and leg and shoulder and hip put
back together and getting a purple heart for it, were "insignificant."

My bad.
I thought both Kerry and Clark were both heroic in battle.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:53 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. Agreed. Clark Deserved his Purple Heart. But he also got the "Highest
Honor" -- the Presidential Medal of Freedom, as well as many other medals for valor.
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 12:43 AM
Response to Original message
27. Soros: Tremendous Admiration for Kerry and Clark .. I am keen on Dean

Just heard from Soros speech.
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kovasb Donating Member (25 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 03:45 AM
Response to Original message
32. Thank GOD for a real post
Kerry was actually the first dem i heard of. My roommate from boston was very into him. But the pathetic lack of dem leadership out of washington was not impressive, although i remained openminded about kerry specifically.

Then i heard that dean was gaining steam Julyish and got on the bandwagon.

Then i learned clark was thinking about entering the race - and i had been very impressed with him on CNN. And everything he has done since then has been good. (Although i cant help but think where his candidacy would be without the 'resolution' incident.

<END BACKSTORY>

I agree that Kerry is pretty impressive. I think that Clark would make a better president. I think senators are too theoretical and not enough hands-on. So as far as sheer leadership goes, I think clark would do the details of running the country better.

While kerry has a proven domestic record, i think Clark's proposals are quite good. And since he will not inspire the natural animosity to the same degree dean or kerry will in the congress, he has a better shot of getting it done.

As for foreign issues, I disagree that the two are essentially tied. On paper they are both impressive, but verballly Clark is much, much better. He speaks directly to the heart of the issue and does not get distracted... his most recent MTP appearence was an amazing, devistating critique of Bush. Kerry lets his 'i told you so'-isms distract from the real points.

Too often it seems that he its trying to copy pieces of Clark's message, and it does not inspire me that he grasps the issues the way clark does... ultimately, i dont think serving for a long time on such-and-such committee matters as much as being a commander who is _directly_ responsible for thousands of lives and regional stability-- and the future of nato.

As far as proccess goes: Kerry's ineffective campaign does not encourage me, and his attacks on the other candidates are what really turned me off of him.

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Raya Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. Great points. The Party really messed up here with too many candidates
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Leilani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:46 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. I agree
Kerry has gone negative because he is in desperation mode.

How can Kerry win a general election, if he is being beaten in New Hamp. & Mass.?

If he can't win New England, where can he win?












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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
37. Af fact of life: Obvious just isn't obvious enough when
a bandwagon is available to jump upon. But, hopefully, people will force themselves to ask a question: Do I want the object of my "movement" dreams to win the noimination or do i want to replace Bush?
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WiseMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 02:11 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. A Funny Thing: Bill Bennet saying Dean is inevitable. Wonder Why?
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Sensitivity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #39
43. These Repubs will be shocked when Dean wins in a landslide!
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aldian159 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #37
42. Exactly
Edited on Wed Jan-14-04 03:09 AM by aldian159
A candidate is someone you agree with on MOST of the issues. The only candidate who would agree with you 100% of the time would be yourself, and, with all due respect, writing in your name isn't gonna beat Bush 2.0

That being said, I will support the winner of the nomination process full bore, and hope others will too. If were all not on the same page, its gonna be four more years. It's gonna be hard enough if were all together.

Edit for syntax.
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