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Anyone got a quick debunking of this stupid email?

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LTR Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:07 PM
Original message
Anyone got a quick debunking of this stupid email?
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:08 PM by RatTerrier
I've never posted one of these things asking for a debunking, and I didn't find anything on it at Snopes. I've seen it floating around the web for awhile, and I finally got it in my box. Here's the offending email:

Subject: I'm confused

I can't understand it. Maybe you can,

I'm trying to get all this political stuff straightened out in my head so I'll know how to vote come November. Right now, we have one guy saying one thing. Then the other guy says something else.

Who to believe. Lemme see; have I got this straight?

Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...

Ahh, it's so confusing!

Every year an independent tax watchdog group analyzes the average tax burden on Americans, and then calculates the "Tax Freedom Day". This is the day after which the money you earn goes to you, not the government.

This year, tax freedom day was April 11th. That's the earliest it has been since 1991. It's latest day ever was May 2nd, which occurred in 2000.

Notice anything special about those dates?

Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim.

Another interesting fact: Both George Bush and John Kerry are wealthy men.

Bush owns only one home, his ranch in Texas.

Kerry owns 4 mansions, all worth several million dollars. (His ski resort home in Idaho is an old barn brought over from Europe in pieces. (Not your average A- frame).

Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year;
Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own.

Pass this on. Only 61 days until the election.


I could spend some time debunking all of this nonsense, but was just wondering if anyone has a clever rebuttal handy. Or even a good anti-Bush one I can forward. Thanks much.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
1. Clinton isn't running again, is he?
Didn't think so.

--bkl
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NoPasaran Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. Just remind 'em to vote in 61 days! n/t
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PretzelWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
3. just tell them to get a f*cking brain. email full of lies and deceit
Subject: I'm confused

I can't understand it.

<this is all they needed to say. they are clueless this late in the game and it's really sad.>
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
4. Bush gave Kerry a tax cut. Kerry wants to return it.
Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year;
Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own.
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Hav Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
5. .
"Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good..."

Oh dear, the way these people think is amazing...
Never let logic get in the way...
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:11 PM
Response to Original message
6. Yes. Email back and say, "Prove it. With links."
Be sure and hit "Reply All."

24.


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truthpusher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. Funny you ask.....
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:14 PM by truthpusher
A co-worker sent this to me on 10-6 here was my response - don't know if it's good but this is all I had in me that day...:

"Saw this over a month ago… I don’t want to sound mean, but don’t you find it kinda creepy that people are still pissed of at Clinton? The weakest thing of all about this post is it fails to mention that the Repubs practically shut the country down for a year impeaching Clinton. So all of this Good, Good, Good crap don’t mean doo-doo. If this post was stating the case accurately then we would be trying to impeach Bush! Instead America has supported Bush. You may not believe this, but I actually wanted Bush to succeed in what he was doing. I had faith in Bush after 911 as well as millions of other Americans did. Bush told me and everybody else that he would hunt down Osama. He didn’t. What I got instead is a really ugly war and a President that is really nothing more than a cheerleader! Honestly, Bush and Cheney give me a real uneasy felling about where they are taking us. What I am freakin’ out about most is what Edwards said last night ‘I don’t think America can handle 4 more years”. Can we afford more wars and the expense that goes along with it? I would rather have leaders that use our resources here at home protecting the borders. I want the National Guard to be protecting the US again. I don’t want to spend money on a war that don’t make sense holmes It feels like we are being left as sitting ducks while all of our fire power is being used in foreign wars. What up!"



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RichardRay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. The sender is obviously not going to have his mind changed
by anything as simple and straightforward as facts and argument. Someone who advances those arguments is already got his head so far in, er, the sand, that it's best to just smile and wave.:hi:

Richard Ray - Jackson Hole, WY
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Demit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:13 PM
Response to Original message
9. I don't know that it's worth your time, really. Maybe just a short meme--
"Bush is a liar, and an incompetent, and probably a very physically-ill man."
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Ruffhowse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. The best rebuttal is to ignore such trash. Equivalent liberal messages
go out and about, too. Anyone who is swayed by this crap is beyond responding to logical arguments.
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cory817 Donating Member (49 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Do they really want to vote for someone
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:29 PM by cory817
so similar to Clinton. The list makes them look like the same president.
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Parche Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. rebuttal
I know that no US soldier died in Serbia
We went into Serbia with the UN
Clinton called for regime change in Iraq, but he wasnt ignorant
and invaded them without cause, Iraq never attacked the US
Clinton was convicted of a felony??? when did that happen
world trade centers fall under bush, yes that is very bad
GW Bush did not protect the US from Terra
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shockingelk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
13. Uh,
"Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad..."

AAAH! So it's true - the WH did have something to do with awarding those contracts!
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kikiek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:36 PM
Response to Original message
14. There are many things wrong with that e mail.
Halliburton wasn't connected to Gore or anyone else in the admin when Clinton used their services. There wasn't a conflict of interest. The amount of money is far beyond 87 billion in Iraq. Closer to 200 billion. Clinton had UN backing for his invasion. We had support. The bombing wasn't on purpose. Clinton lied about sex. Bush lied about so many things you can't list them here. The number 1 being the reasons for going to war. Don't know where the writer has been, but they are still finding mass graves in Serbia. Ethnic cleansing under Milosevic. Doesn't anyone recall all the orphans? My god they had babies and children everywhere living in horrendous conditions. Clinton wasn't offered Bin Laden. He bombed the terrorist camps. Saddam was collapsing under the sanctions, and the recent report verified he would not have lasted much longer anyways.Milosevic is on trial now, and with a world court. The personal failings of Bush fills books. Lets not even go into the rest of it. My goodness talk about a guy who never had to lift a finger to get where he is. He is the most undeserving president this country has ever seen. Is only in office because of daddies connections and power. Everything he has done in his life is because of his fathers help. I would like them to name 1 single thing he did that was successful without daddies friends helping.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:37 PM
Response to Original message
15. Not a one of those statements is true, is the simple debunking
Many have been debunked, the ones that haven't are just obvious lies.

Bush has spent more than 87 Bil on Iraq, for instance, he's spent 120 Bil and has allocated 200 Bil. The 77 Bil was Clinton's total for the war, the 87 Bil was one of Bush's supplements.

Clinton didn't impose regime change in Serbia, they had elections to boot Milosovec out long after the bombing campaign ended. Milosovic refused to leave, and Serbia rose up against him, just as America failed to do when W did the same thing here.

If anyone in Iraq is liberated then I'm Dick Cheney, or whoever makes such an assinine statement is Dick Cheney. People are dying at a faster rate now in Iraq than under Hussein when we attacked.

Clinton wasn't convicted of or charged with any felonies. Check out Reagan's record: more indictments of senior administration officials than any other president, more independent counsels, more convictions... and all directly involving the jobs which these officials were appointed to perform-- unlike the accusations of Clinton officials.

The Chinese embassy bombing was an accident, and besides, many liberals protested it anyway.

Clinton never refused to take custody of Bin Laden, but the Republicans sure did blast Clinton when he tried to bomb Bin Laden in 1998. Bush is the one who pulled back our commandoes and our submarines and let Bin Laden's camps exercise in peace.

As for tax independence day, I don't know the numbers, but I'll give the email the benefit of the doubt, even though it has not earned such. Even if unemployment wasn't rising and wages falling, making tax gains useless, it still sort of forgets the fact that there is a huge deficit that will have to be paid back, and the only way it will be paid back is with taxes. Bush didn't cut taxes, he gave everyone a credit card and didn't explain the interest rates or the payback terms. A tax cut coupled with increased spending is no more a tax cut than a Visa card is a raise.

Go down the list, and every statement is a lie, just as everything any Republican produces is.

There have been mass graves found in Serbia, btw.

The only way to debunk a Republican is to spit in their face and call them a lying babykiller. They don't understand the difference between a truth and a lie, so it does no good to explain it to them.

Not that this has anything to do with Kerry.
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Shopaholic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
16. I got an e-mail from a Repug yesterday that alleged Clinton
had invited Ken Lay to stay in the White House 11 times. I was able to debunk it via Snopes.com. I e-mailed the link and the whole article which exposed it for the fraud it was back to the Repug bitch and the 999 people she'd copied it too. Haven't heard a word from her since. And i added "I wasn't aware that Bill Clinton was running for president again".
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
17. Point by point--Reply to all
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:51 PM by NRK
Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good...
Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad...
*Worse in Bush's case because of the conflict of interest from Cheney's stock holdings in Halliburton. He makes more money when we choose to go to war.

Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good...
Bush spends 87 billion in Iraq - bad...
*Bush will have spent at least 200 billion on an unnecessary war that he lied us into.

Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
*We stopped ethnic cleansing while it was happening rather than waiting a decade and using it as an excuse.

Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good...
Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad...
*Those "Christian Serbs" were practicing ethnic cleansing when we went in. Iraq hadn't done anything in a decade.

Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good...
Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad...
*No, the embassy bombing was a mistake for which Clinton apologized. And Clinton bombed terrorist camps. Has Bush ever apologized for anything? Like misleading us into a war?

Clinton commits felonies while in office - good...
Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad...
*Bush committed high treason by exposing a deep cover CIA operation and lying to congress in his State of the Union address.

No mass graves found in Serbia - good...
No WMD found Iraq - bad...
*Ethnic cleansing was happening in Serbia. WMD stockpiling was not happening in Iraq.

Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good...
Economy on upswing under Bush - bad...
*So many jobs have been outsourced under Bush that his administration had to say it was a good thing.

Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good...
World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad...
*Bush refused custody of Bin Laden:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,573975,00.html
0,1361,573975,00.html
*The towers fell on Bush's watch because he stayed on vacation for a month after being warned of the impending attack.

Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good...
Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad...
*Both knew the intelligence was questionable, but only one of them was foolish enough to justify an invasion with it.

Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good...
Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad...
*Would've been better if Iraqis had had their own uprising, huh?

Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good...
Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad...
*Who says terrorist training was good? Clinton bombed them.

Milosevic not yet convicted - good...
Saddam turned over for trial - bad...
*Milosevic will be convicted. Be patient. We were still selling Saddam weapons when he committed mass murder.

Recently, John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts.
*That's because corporations are paying less. The rich pay less. Everyone else has to take up the slack. And Bush spends like a drunken sailor.

Glad I could help with your confusion! Let me know if you have any more questions!

Restore common sense to the White House!
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Carolab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:49 PM
Response to Original message
18. Here's what I sent when I got it
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:49 PM by Carolab
"John Kerry gave a speech in which he claimed Americans are actually paying more taxes under Bush, despite the tax cuts. He gave no explanation and provided no data for this claim." John's point, which was raised repeatedly last year by Howard Dean, among others, is that the "tax cuts" greatly benefited the wealthiest 2% of this country and resulted in minimal (average about $300) "savings" to average American taxpayers. Despite his wife being in this class herself, John promises to rescind this "free pass" for the rich, while not raising taxes on the middle class. Meanwhile, George Bush's base, or as he calls them "the haves and the have mores", want to keep these cuts for themselves, despite the mounting record deficits and massive cuts in taxpayer-sponsored domestic programs. The Federal government under Bush has slashed budgets for public education, police and fire departments, veterans benefits, and other important domestic and community programs, placing the burden for funding these services squarely on the shoulders of Mr. and Mrs. John Doe in the form of escalating state and local (property) taxes. while Bush and Cheney's rich friends get richer and richer on oil, and no-bid defense contracts, plundering the U.S. Treasury, emptying our Social Security "lockbox" and causing a 20% increase in costs of Medicare for seniors, for the first time ever in the program's 40-year history.

*************************

"Bush paid $250,000 in taxes this year; Kerry paid $90,000. Does that sound right? The man who wants to raise your taxes obviously has figured out a way to avoid paying his own." As I said above, he wants to tax away the tax cut that Bush gave to the wealthiest 2% of this country's citizens.
LOUISVILLE, Ky. -- http://www.suntimes.com/output/elect/cst-nws-kerry122.html

Teresa Heinz Kerry, responding to repeated calls that she disclose information about her private fortune, said Tuesday she earned more than $5 million last year and has paid about $750,000 toward income taxes, according to her husband's presidential campaign.

Heinz Kerry and John Kerry, the presumptive Democratic nominee, filed separate tax returns. Earlier this year, he released tax returns showing he had paid federal taxes of $102,152 on adjusted gross income of $395,338.

Teresa Heinz Kerry, an heir to the Heinz prepared foods fortune, is worth an estimated $500 million. She was married to Sen. John Heinz, a Pennsylvania Republican who died in a plane crash in 1991. She married Kerry in 1995.

''While I am not a candidate for any public office, a great deal of my financial information has been disclosed for many years on my husband's Senate ethics disclosures and now that he is a presidential candidate, with the office of government ethics,'' Heinz Kerry said in the statement. ''Today, I am making additional public disclosures by releasing my personal tax information.''

She has said she was reluctant to reveal her finances because of privacy concerns for her children.

The campaign reported that Heinz Kerry had an estimated gross taxable income in 2003 of about $2,338,000, along with tax exempt interest income of $2,777,000, largely from state, municipal and other public bonds.

She paid $587,000 in estimated federal income taxes for 2003 and $162,777 in estimated state and local income taxes. In April she paid another $280,000 toward expected additional 2003 and 2004 liability, the campaign said.

Campaign officials said Heinz Kerry has requested an extension on filing her 2003 income tax returns. She will file her returns in October, officials said, and will make the first two pages of those returns public at that time.

''John and I believe this strikes a balance between my family's privacy and the media's requests for more financial information,'' she said.

Heinz Kerry oversaw the distribution of $4.6 million in charitable contributions during 2003, the statement said. AP

"Clinton awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Yugoslavia - good ... Bush awards Halliburton no-bid contract in Iraq - bad..."

Halliburton is fleecing the U.S. taxpayer to the tune of at least $2 billion dollars (that we know of).

"BUSH ADMINISTRATION GIVES HALLIBURTON IRAQ"

Imagine if the Clinton Administration like the Bush Administration had pushed for a war in Iraq against the wishes of at least half of the nation. Then imagine that upon entering Iraq, they handed 1.7 billion dollars in no-bid contracts to the company that Gore (vs. Cheney) was the CEO of until the moment he took his position as Vice President. Whitewater is a million-dollar sneeze compared to the amount of money we are discussing here. The Republicans would have been screaming for an explanation. They would have been accusing the Clinton Administration of nepotism or worse and calling for impeachment. But, here we have the Bush administration handing Halliburton (formerly headed by Dick Cheney) over a billion dollar in contracts that were formerly handled by the military itself. Where is the outcry?

"The amount of money (earned by Halliburton) is quite staggering, far more than we were originally led to believe," Said Rep. Henry Waxman, D-California. "This is clearly a trend under this administration and it concerns me because often the privatization of government services ends up costing the taxpayers more money as opposed to less."

Step back, phrases such as 'clearly a trend' are not exactly fighting words. What I don't understand is that the Republicans are meant to be the party of free enterprise and the celebrators of capitalism. Why aren't they in favor of fair competition and opening these contracts up to bids? Competition is the reason that the Republicans deregulated all the power companies in California (and why Gray Davis got the boot), all in the name of their beloved free enterprise. I guess competition is only a good thing if you can control who comes out on top.

Although the democrats in the US are slow to take up this nearly sexual attraction between the Bush administration and big money, writers in Europe are not. Ed Vulliamy of the Guardian UK writes "No administration has been so closely associated with, and beholden to, corporate America. Backstage, being further tarnished by scandals affecting their friends.
Trent Lott, one of Bush's closest confidants on Capitol Hill... WorldCom was seeking political influence at the core of the administration right up to the eleventh hour before admitting its fraud." Vulliamy notes that WorldCom gave $100,000 to the Bush/Cheney re-election fund.

Competition is supposed to allow us as taxpayers to rest assured that our better interests are being looked after. Unfortunately, this administration is so completely in the pocket of big money corporations that there is no room for a semblance of free market economics to work. My only consolation is that for the first time since Bush came to office in a recent poll, more Americans would not vote for him than would vote for him.


"Of course the people don't want war. But after all, it's the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it's always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it's a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering


I leave you with a little Bush quiz question taken from The New Yorker magazine.

True or False: Barring an economic miracle that would trigger the creation of more than two million jobs in the next eighteen months, George W. Bush will end this term as the first president since Jimmy Carter to oversee a net loss in employment.

Answer-False-He'll be the first president since Herbert Hoover

http://www.doubledarepress.com/2003/04/editoral/editorial-1.shtml

*********************************

http://us.oneworld.net/article/view/70154/1
Something Fishy about 'No-Bid' Contracts for Iraq Reconstruction?
Gail Russell Chaddock
Christian Science Monitor
Fri., Oct. 10, 2003



WASHINGTON, D.C., Oct. 10 (CSM) -– Critics on Capitol Hill are taking a hard look at several lucrative U.S. contracts to rebuild war-damaged Iraq.

When Susan Collins was just a staffer in the United States Senate, she used to worry about fat government contracts being awarded in secret. Now Collins is a US Senator--and she can finally do something about it.

Senator Collins is drawing a bead on contracts in Iraq, where the US has begun pouring in billions of dollars to repair war damage and rebuild the country. There are charges in the press that no-bid contracts are squandering taxpayer funds.

"A tremendous amount of money will be spent on contracts to rebuild Iraq," says the soft-spoken Maine senator, a leading GOP moderate. She wants Washington to avoid even the appearance of cronyism or war profiteering in these deals. "We have an obligation to make sure that money is not being wasted," Collins says.

Yet some key Iraq contracts already were bid secretly, or on a sole-source basis, to companies with strong ties to the Bush administration. These included a $1.39 billion contract to a subsidiary of Halliburton, an energy giant formerly chaired by Vice President Dick Cheney.

Another $680 million contract for Iraq's power grid, water system, and airport facilities went to Bechtel Group Inc., after a secret bidding process. Together, the six companies invited to bid on the Bechtel contract contributed $3.6 million to federal election campaigns, two-thirds to Republicans, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

"These suspect contracts with Halliburton and other companies raise questions about the awarding of contracts to friends of the administration," says Sen. Richard Durbin (D) of Illinois. "Wasn't there someone in the room who said, 'This just doesn't look right.'?"

It's that appearance of wrongdoing that most concerns Collins. In the heat of war, there may be reasons that contracts for fighting oil fires or rebuilding water systems should move quickly - or go to industry giants, she says. Still, anything less than open competition also carries a risk: the integrity of the process, she adds.

Such issues have been a nearly lifelong concern for Collins - one of the rare lawmakers who can do the dog work of a tough investigation herself. As staff director for the government management subcommittee from 1979 to 1987, she led an investigation that found "excessive reliance" on sole-source contracting in Washington. The committee produced a bill that required more competitive bidding, but the law left a loophole: No one needs to account to Congress when they claim one of the seven exceptions in that law, including one for national security.

"The problem is there is no oversight to see that these exceptions are used appropriately," she says. As chairman of the committee she once worked for, Collins wants those loopholes closed. Her "sunshine rule," cosponsored with Sen. Ron Wyden (D) of Oregon, was approved by the Senate as an amendment to President Bush's $87 billion request for Iraq.

She claims another influence in this work: Sen. Harry Truman (D) of Missouri, who was spotted by President Franklin D. Roosevelt as a vice-presidential prospect for his work on war profiteering during World War II. Truman, like Collins, was no grandstander. He said his aim was "heading off scandals before they started." But his conclusions were unambiguous: "The little manufacturer, the little contractor, and the little machine shop have been left entirely out in the cold. The policy seems to be to make the big man bigger and to put the little man completely out of business," Truman said in 1941.

Historian Theodore Wilson wrote in 1975 that the Truman committee is widely viewed as "the most successful congressional investigative effort in United States history." It later evolved into the permanent subcommittee on investigation, now a panel of the Senate Government Affairs Committee that Collins chairs. "Our committee has a legacy of being aggressive in protecting the taxpayer from contracting abuses," she says.

Many of the same Truman-like criticisms are surfacing in the congressional debate over the contracts in Iraq. In all, some $79 billion has already been allocated for war expenses in Iraq, and another $87 billion bill is working its way through Congress - a windfall for companies that can make themselves part of it.

"We're overrelying on large umbrella contracts.... Halliburton has a monopoly on the work in oil, and Bechtel has a monopoly on the reconstruction work," says Rep. Henry Waxman (D) of California, the ranking Democrat on the House Government Reform Committee. "There is no incentive to lower costs," he adds.

No contract has riled critics as much as the first and most lucrative: to Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton. It started as a 2001 contract for logistical support to the US military, wherever it went, and it was competitively bid. But a decision to expand that contract - from supporting troops to oil-well firefighting, repairing oil systems, and now maintaining and operating oil systems - was not.

"Redefining the contract on a no-bid basis, that's where the Pentagon went awry," says P. W. Singer, a fellow at the Brookings Institution. "All the companies have decided that one way for them to achieve a corporate advantage is to hire former government officials or to make political campaign contributions."

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld told Congress, "The Halliburton contract for oil-field restoration is currently in the process of being recompeted," and that "no new funds are planned to be awarded under the old contract."

The impression of favoritism could be tough to blot out. Recently, a new lobby shop touted its ties to the Bush administration as an asset in helping clients get business in Iraq. New Bridge Strategies, with offices in Washington and Houston, describes itself as "a unique company that was created specifically with the aim of assisting clients to evaluate and take advantage of business opportunities in the Middle East following the conclusion of the US-led war in Iraq." Its principals include Joe Allbaugh, campaign manager for Bush presidential race in 2000.

"This kind of thing is tawdry and will reinforce the conviction in some quarters that this is all about making bucks and paying off corporate pals," says Andrew Bacevich, director of the Center for International Relations at Boston University.



*******************************

"Clinton imposes regime change in Serbia - good ... Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad... Clinton bombs Christian Serbs on behalf of Muslim Albanian terrorists - good ... Bush liberates 25 million from a genocidal dictator - bad..."


Slobodan Milosevic of Yugoslavia and his gang of thugs (not a recognized "sovereign government") were slaughtering all the Muslims in revenge for their "cooperation with Nazis in World War II". It was a big power grab after the Soviet authorities pulled out, and they were committing genocide and seizing their property. Our efforts in Serbia were backed by NATO and the EU. We are there now in a peacekeeping role. Conversely, nobody asked for help in Iraq. We just decided to take over there, and seize the assets (oil) in order to assert military and geopolitical control over the Middle East. The whole thing was never sanctioned by the UN/the rest of the world and was immoral and illegal. What "we" are doing is more like what Saddam Hussein did in Kuwait. There is no security, no sewer and water, sporadic electricity and only about billion of the $61 billion that was set aside for reconstruction has been spent. But the oil fields have been working just fine and dandy since day one--profiting none other than international oil companies and the "puppet government" that the U.S. has managed to install there. Some liberation for the Iraq people. Over 27,000 innocent civilians have died there, most of them women and children.

"Clinton spends 77 billion on war in Serbia - good ... Bush spends 87
billion in Iraq - bad... The money for rebuilding came from the EU, not U.S. taxpayers." and "Clinton bombs Chinese embassy - good ... Bush bombs terrorist camps - bad..." The bombing of the Chinese embassy was a mistake. Someone put the wrong coordinates in and we hit the wrong target. We apologized and made reparations. Bush and Clinton both bombed terrorist camps in Afghanistan. Republicans objected when Clinton did it, saying it was to deflect attention from the Monica Lewinsky affair. In reality, Clinton was trying to kill Osama bin Laden and might have succeeded if he hadn't have been hamstrung by the "witchhunt" led by Ken Starr. No one objected to Bush bombing terrorist camps in Afghanistan or hampered him in doing so. Still, he came up empty-handed and the Taliban is once again in power there.

"Clinton commits felonies while in office - good ... Bush lands on aircraft carrier in jumpsuit - bad..." First of all, these two things do not relate. That said, the number of felonies that Bush and other members of this administration have committed is extensive, including war crimes against a nation that did not attack us or threaten to. The difference is that under Republican-controlled Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches, there is nothing being done about it on a Federal level, despite the fact that there have been a number of indictments brought against Dick Cheney for his backroom "energy deals" and Ken Lay for violations of campaign finance laws and dirty dealings with Enron. The truth is, however, coming out in numerous books, and in several private lawsuits being brought by family members of victims of 9/11 on behalf of themselves and the U.S. taxpayers.

"No mass graves found in Serbia - good ... No WMD found Iraq - bad..." The siege of Sarajevo was one of the most horrific acts of mass genocide perpetrated in modern times. Dead bodies were lying all over the soil, everywhere. We didn't "make up" a story to go there, or need to--like saying that there were weapons of mass destruction when there were none, or making up a connection between someone that attacked us and them.

"Stock market crashes in 2000 under Clinton - good ... Economy on upswing under Bush - bad..." This nation enjoyed a period of record prosperity under Clinton and when he left we had a record surplus. Now we have a record deficit. Have you seen the stock market reports lately? The price of oil just hit $50.00/bbl and it appears that there is a shortage in Nigeria's output, so there is apparently no way to bring it down. OPEC cannot keep up. If it hits $55/bbl, experts are currently predicting, interest rates will escalate until we reach double digits and unemployment will soar--as in the 1980s.

"Clinton refuses to take custody of Bin Laden - good ... World Trade Centers fall under Bush - bad..." As mentioned above, Clinton went after bin Laden but was hamstrung by the Republicans who were more concerned with talking about his love life and his real estate dealings (both of which, in the end, amounted to nothing at all of any benefit to our nation, because the President was not allowed to go about the business of protecting us without being accused by Republicans of trying to divert the public's attention from the Lewinsky and Whitewater "investigations"--and which of course also wasted multiple millions of taxpayer money).

I can recommend several books for background on who was president when our government first learned about Al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden (hint: Bush 41), further information about how Clinton worked to orchestrate intelligence into terrorism on a daily basis (remember that only 50 casualties to "terrorism" occurred in eight years under Clinton's watch), and multiple and repeated warnings to the incoming administration (hint: Bush 43) that were blatantly ignored. One of them has just come out "9/11 Commission Cover-up" by award-winning journalist Peter Lance. It's currently rising in the charts at amazon.com. You might also read Richard Clarke's excellent book, "Against All Enemies" which talks about not only the Bush administration's failure to counter terror, but also Bush's pathological obsession with Iraq and his plans to attack Hussein all along, which had nothing to do with 9/11 and more to do with his father's failures in the first Gulf war.


"Clinton says Saddam has nukes - good ... Bush says Saddam has nukes - bad..." During Clinton's terms of office, Saddam's weapons programs were dead-ended through ongoing and repeated inspections by the UN inspectors, in addition to sanctions and daily flyovers to ensure nothing was being built. By the time Bush decided to invade Iraq there were no WMD, as has been widely reported. The UN inspections by Blix were not allowed to be completed because this administration knew they would find no WMD and it would blow their excuse to invade and occupy.

"Clinton calls for regime change in Iraq - good ... Bush imposes regime change in Iraq - bad..." Regime change, not occupation.

"Terrorist training in Afghanistan under Clinton - good ... Bush destroys training camps in Afghanistan - bad..." We trained the mujahideen in order to help drive the Russians out. Bin Laden is viewed as a hero by the Arab world because of his leadership in driving out the Russians. However, he turned on us because of our military bases in Saudi Arabia. The Taliban is in control again in Afghanistan, and warlords are running the show, with funding provided through a now burgeoning opium trade, and their training camps are going strong there and elsewhere--haven't you heard?

"Milosevic not yet convicted - good ... Saddam turned over for trial - bad..." Hmmm, doesn't seem to be much happening with Saddam yet, either. And where is Osama bin Laden, so that we might try him and get to the bottom of his reported masterminding of 9/11? As I recall, last year the US captured "his #1," Khalid Sheik Mohammed. After the 9/11 Commission's report came out they then issued a supplemental report which didn't get as much "press", in which they stated no one was able to find a direct money trail back to bin Laden. Apparently, the money was managed through Mohammed's nephew Ali, bankrolled from some very high-powered Saudi Arabian connections. The money was being laundered through Riggs Bank, of which the CEO is none other than W's uncle, Jonathan. Riggs bank has been fined multiple millions already for its money-laundering transgressions and the investigations are ongoing as we speak, with the trail leading back to the Saudi royal family (Bush family friends, remember? If not, read Craig Unger's book, "House of Bush, House of Saud", which has been on the New York Times best-seller's list all year.)

FINALLY, you need to spend more time reading the many books that have been written by former government officials and government reporters, such as Paul O'Neill (Bush's former Treasury Secretary)'s "Price of Loyalty", Richard Clarke (former Bush Director of Counterterror operations in the CIA)'s "Against All Enemies" (mentioned above), and John Dean's (Nixon's former White House lawyer)'s "Worse Than Watergate", plus Bob Woodward's "Plan of Attack." Your local bookstore can recommend many others like these.

Also there are several very informative alternative websites on the Internet, like www.alternet.org, www.truthout.org, www.buzzflash.com, www.fromthewilderness.com, www.tompaine.com www.commondreams.org, the international news source websites (like www.independent.co.uk or www.guardian.co.uk), and those of independent journalists like Greg Palast (www.gregpalast.com) or Arianna Huffington (www.ariannaonline.com)

Incidentally, for more information about John Kerry and debunking of the lies and distortions being told about him and John Edwards, you can visit www.johnkerry.com.

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CBHagman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:51 PM
Response to Original message
19. So many outright lies, it's hard to know where to start.
Edited on Fri Oct-15-04 05:52 PM by CBHagman
First of all, tell the sender it's easier to hit "send" than to have actually read the newspapers for the last 15 years and learned about things while they were going on.

But just for starters:

1. Clinton did not impose regime change in the Balkans. Milosevic was forced out by his own people.
2. Clinton was not backing "Muslim terrorists," he was trying to stop a long-running war in the Balkans. People were expelled from their homes, raped and massacred. NATO allies were trying to end that.
3. How "Christian" is it to be a sniper, rapist, or the like?
4. The myth that Clinton refused to take custody of bin Laden was dealt with in the book "Ghost Wars," among other places.
5. The problems in Afghanistan began building in the 1980s, when -- guess what! -- the U.S. backed the mujaheddin against the Soviets. Again, history is peskily complicated, not Bush black-and-white. Reading required.
6. Clinton did not commit felonies in office.


As for tax policy, the general agreement is that Bush's tax policies have overwhelmingly benefitted the wealthiest members of societies. The general Bush tax philosophy is to tax labor at a higher rate than passive income (i.e., investments, inheritances, etc.). Clinton's policies raised taxes on the wealthiest Americans and expanded the Earned Income Tax Credit, which mostly goes to the working poor who have children.

Anyway, being confronted with so much ignorance at one go has left me feeling winded. I may have to take a deep breath here.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Oct-15-04 05:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. The asshole who wrote this wouldn't have voted for Clinton.
And he shouldn't vote for Bush, either.
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