"I don't like John Kerry. He's not a Christian"

[bluestateguy]

I just got off the phone with my mother. Yesterday at my mother's workplace while everybody was eating in the lunchroom, John Kerry's picture came up on the television. Some lady was standing behind my mother and her friend and she said rather loudly that she didn't like Kerry because he wasn't a Christian. Well, apparently my mother, who is a Catholic like Kerry, flipped out. It would have been worse had her friend and co-worker not calmed her down and diffused the situation. My mother tells me that this "Christian" woman is such a good parent that her 18 year old daughter got knocked up by some 38 year old loser, her other daughter will have nothing to do with her and lives in Mexico and her son is in jail. Family values.

This lady once said in the office that "All the Christians are voting for Bush".

Ugggh!

[JohnKleeb]

1. Sorry if I offended

My point is that most protestants do vote republican in elections except in extreme democratic landslides. I said I was sick of fundies impiling that only republican candiates are real Christians. I apologize if I offended anyone.

[George_Bonanza]

9. That's a misleading fact

While the overall Protestant vote tends to go Bush, it becomes 50-50 once you take out White Male Evangelicals (aka Fundies). Add that to the fact that Black Protestants are overwhelmingly Democratic (about 80-20).

[JohnKleeb]

15. What about mainline protestants?

Really all I've read suggests that protestants in a whole go for republicans, I did not mean to offend anyone.

[annabanana]

78. mainline? probably Dem this year..but numbers dwindling.............n/t

[salin]

88. I have always lived among mainline protestants

and am one - have lived in four states (east, midwest and west) - most of these folks are democrats. Granted I have generally lived and worked in highly educated communities - but nonetheless - my entire life and all of my friends would be quite troubled by your assessment. Generalizations are never a good thing - and the temptation to merge all Christians under the very vocal politicized religious right tent (which is predominantly fundamentalist) is not an accurate characterization.

[SW FL Dem]

98. This Protestant and my entire family

are voting for Kerry. We are life-long Dems. You need to distinguish between Protestants and Evangelicals.

[JohnKleeb]

100. You're right and I apologize for my error

Evanglicals should be counted as their own category to avoid confusion.

[HuskerDem]

11. S'cuse me?

This protestant, and her entire protestant family is voting for Kerry. This protestant and her protestant husband have ALWAYS voted Democrat.

Care to peel a layer of stink off of your stereotype please?

You are better than that John, because I have admired many of your posts.

[JohnKleeb]

12. Most protestants vote republican

Its not a sterotype, sorry if I offended. I edited to clarify my point and PMed you.

[George_Bonanza]

42. Depends on what kind of Protestant

Unlike Catholicism, Protestantism is a very fractured and individualized faith instead of one large communal body. Black Protestants are probably tied with Jews as the Democrats' strongest religious backer. White Evangelicals are Bush's answer to the Black Protestants. Mainliners are about 50-50, slightly tipped to Bush.

The sad thing about Protestantism is that there are some really decent Protestant churches out there, like the Presbyterian USA Church, the Anglicans, etc. that are pushing the liberal agenda in the repugnant face of the Christian Coalition. Sadly, the only Protestant sects that are growing are the fanatical evangelical ones, while the much more moderate-to-liberal ones are either stagnant or dying.

[JohnKleeb]

45. I see

It is very diverse I admit. So the American Anglicans, Presbysterians, etc go democratic and republican pretty split but lean Bush. I really didn't mean to offend anyone but I am honestly sick of some hardline protestants saying Catholics aren't real Christians. Shame that the more moderate-liberal sects of protestantism are struggling and the fundies are gaining day by day. Sorry if I offended again.

[Lerkfish]

77. no offense, but there are many protestant churches which are inclusive

and inclusive of ALL religions. The UNited Church of Christ, for example, that I used to belong to, not only held pro-choice rallies, was predominantly liberal, also did a lot of conjoined efforts with every church in the area, combined mission projects with catholic churches...etc. I NEVER heard that church say ANYTHING negative about catholics.

I realize the fundies get all the press, but more progressive churches do exist.

[LittleClarkie]

93. Evangelical Lutheran Church in America

That's the church denomination I belong to. I didn't wear my Kerry button there for the longest, because I didn't want to start a church war. Finally decided I was being a chicken, and wore it.

I got 10 "Good Man!" comments to 2 "I don't like that guy" comments. My pastor voted Bush in 2000 but says he can't this year. He may go Nader, or if the parish secretary can work on him, he might go Kerry. The secretary's husband is true blue Dem, and fully versed on the neo-con agenda.

And I'm told that our Council President will talk your ear off against Bush if you get him on the subject.

One of our veterans, who has a son in the Marines, says he gets really steamed when they pick on a veteran the way they have Kerry.

We have teachers, nurses, an outspoken lawyer, and a social worker who are all strong Kerryites. I was so glad I decided to wear my button, because my fellow ELCAers are not as Conservative as I thought, considering we are a suburban church in a very Red area. I was so pleased. And I have been feeding them signs and buttons for two months, as things came out.

Christians are NOT all Republicans. Some of us see the evil of Bush, and that Kerry is a good man.

[Machiavelli05]

46. Dont forget Methodists!

The faith itself is rooted in social justice. Right now we are having to contend with some very fundamentalist elements - but there is a very moderate and in some ways liberal percentage of the United Methodist Church

[HuskerDem]

52. Shout out for the UMC right here!

Open hearts...... Open minds...... Open doors.

[intheflow]

95. GBLT

Yeah, Methodists are great overall, but the slogan won't be accurate until GBLT ministers are able to live their sexuality openly. Some of you are working on this, I know, and to those Methodists, I say: :thumbsup:

[JohnKleeb]

54. Methodist leaders I believe opposed the war in iraq too

[HuskerDem]

49. John, please check your mail :-)

:hug:

[JohnKleeb]

53. glad we made peace about it

thank ya.

[Misunderestimator]

91. John... Where do you get that "fact" anyway?

Just asking... Is it just an assumption, or do you have proof of such a claim?

[sandnsea]

73. White Protestant Males

And the women who love them. You're right Kleeb. There wouldn't be a Republican party if it weren't for white males with that cute litte WASPish attitude.

[Maat]

2. Exactly.

Just typical.

[Maat]

6. And a Religious Scientist's or Unitarian's God is really God...

etc. etc. I don't suppose these bullies will ever stop bullying..

[kwolf68]

All the Christians are voting for Bush

This one aint.

Fuck these people. My Christianity is one that works to feed the hungry, cure the sick, house the homeless, protect "Gods creation" the environment, promote peace on earth.

These war-mongering fuckwads have nothing to do with a true peaceful religion that inspires countless people around the globe.

They have turned "Christianity" into a political ideology and that should reserve them a place in hell. I have friends who are atheists, agnostics, even muslim and I respect them all because of what is in their hearts and minds.

By the way, I'm Christian, but I cuss like a sailor.

Another thing...I love John Kerry. He's a wonderful man and I believe in him.

[grannylib]

8. *lol* I speak fluent 'blue' my own self, and I'm a PK! Almost went to sem

to become a pastor, but am SO disgusted by most organized religion, including my own, that I just could not debase myself to that degree. My life is my ministry, and the world is my congregation.

[HuskerDem]

13. Amen

by example you will lead.........

[quaoar]

19. Amen, brother

This Methodist is tired of Republicans who think Christianity is their wholly owned franchise. To be a Republican you have to believe that all that stuff Jesus said about loving your neighbor, loving your enemy, turning the other cheek and being your brother's keeper was just some spin from the consulting firm of Matthew, Mark, John and Luke.

[kwolf68]

28. Thanks friend

I too am Methodist, although I attend a fairly Conservative Methodist Church with plenty of BC stickers on the cars.

I so much want to drive my car up there with my Kerry stickers on it, but we drive my wifes minivan which is apolitical. Oh well.

I have heard NOTHING political however at this church or from the members, but when we talk "issues" I always express we must promote the works of Jesus and no other. If we do THAT, then this world would be a wonderful place.

No one has every disagreed with me.

My former church (near Richmond, Va) was all Cons, but the pastor came from a very progressive perspective. He was freaking incredible. He never mentioned politics. He just mentioned the word of God, what Jesus said and it just kinda came out "Liberal" if you know what I mean.

[DeadHead67]

33. I can't imagine why the teachings of the Lord Jesus sound 'liberal'. . .

. . .and further, I can't figure out how the 'fundies' can so easily ignore those teachings.

[kwolf68]

40. Little confused by that post

...

[DeadHead67]

30. . . . . . and Again I say AMEN BROTHER !

. . .I'm Episcopalian, and I cannot for the life of me figure out which Gospel those guys are reading, but I don't think it's in the New Testament. Maybe the Old?

[kwolf68]

34. Yes they cherry pick the old Testament

...All quotes they use to justify war, vengeance, revenge, exploitation, death, etc....is picked from the Old Testament.

ASK THEM...about ANY direct quotes from Jesus that promotes their ideology.

Because something is mentioned in the Bible doesn't mean we should live by that credo. Supposedly, Jesus is "the savior"...tell me what HE SAID. WHAT HE SAID.

[DeadHead67]

26. Amen Brother !

[susanna]

27. Wow...

I am in complete agreemeent with everything you wrote, kwolf. Well done! :-)

[kwolf68]

37. Thanks susanna

...a lot of us Liberal Christians are very disgusted at what has happened to our religion.

It really galls me that some of the most "faithful", compassionate, peace-loving people i've ever met have "no God" per se. It shows me we have allowed Pat Robertson and his types carte blanche to exploit a religion for his own financial and political gain.

By definition, that means Mr. Robertson will be in hell.

[liberalpress]

74. Amen, my friend!

(Oh, BTW) Presbyterian here. Wife wears a button that says "Christians for Kerry."

[truthpusher]

3. 'John Kerry took my shoe'

[grannylib]

4. People who think Christianity is limited to puritannical sexual mores and

who think pro-life refers only to abortion may be voting for Bush, but that is a far cry from saying that 'All the Christians are voting for Bush.'
THIS Christian is voting for Kerry/Edwards!

[SCRUBDASHRUB]

5. Holier than thou people piss me off!!

That "he's not a Christian" attitude" bugs the shit out of me!! "All the 'Christians' are voting for Bush?" Whatever!

This Jew is voting for Kerry, and so is my non-practicing Catholic husband!!

[Maat]

7. Fundies are different from real Christians, and really spiritual..

people.

[WindRavenX]

10. ARGGHHH

This shit pisses me off to NO END.
First of all, Catholics ARE Christian. Secondly, who the fuck says that just because you have the label of a "christian" means you're a good person??
What's that line about men and deeds...? That's right, judge by his deeds, not his words. And guess what, Bush fails that big test.

[NewYorkerfromMass]

17. It's like.. duh.... Catholicism 101: CATHOLICS ARE CHRISTIANS

Pisses me off to no end too. The ignorance is ASTOUNDING.
If I were there my 13 years of Catholic grade school training would have been unloaded on her in 1 HUGE shitstorm of vitriol.

[HuskerDem]

57. In all fairness, it sometimes scours the other way........

My husbands ex-wife, who is on her third marriage (6th live-in) has suddenly "converted" to Catholicism and will now react with utter disdain at being referred to as a Christian. She's better than we are.

[aquart]

72. For quite a while, Catholics were the only Christians.

[edbermac]

14. My sister once said she liked President Bush because he was pro-life...

I replied "You know how many execution orders he signed as Governor of Texas, including one for that nice Christian lady Karla Faye Tucker?" Of course no reply from her...

[faithnotgreed]

39. incredibly tragic isnt it?

[pacalo]

44. Do we have the same sister? ;)

Not to mention that a lot of "pro-lifers" think it's okay that we're fighting in an illegal war that had nothing to do with 9/11; that thousands of troops/innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed/maimed because of the coWard-in-chief's bad, selfish judgement.

And don't forget about how the "pro-lifers" think it's okay for assault weapons to be purchased at gun shows without the buyer being screened.

[kokomo]

55. A Southern Baptist told me that Bush doesn't lie because he is a Christian

I thought the "good man" was going to show me his Christian fist when he brought up Clinton ONE MORE TIME and I said when Bill lied nobody died, but when Bush lies, thousands die.

[incapsulated]

16. Well, it's true...

Everyone knows that those of us brought up Catholic worship the God Cathol and some guy in Italy who wears a big hat. It's got nothing at all to do with Jesus, actually. We just dig the incense.

:hi:

[demgrrrll]

24. Rove counted on 19 million evangelicals in 2000, only 15 million showed

up. Their core issues are gay marriage and pro life issues but they do believe in "just Wars. It is easy to see who Bush panders to when he is out campaigning.
Rove is counting on this group to give Bush the edge.

[incapsulated]

29. Those people...

And the b/millionaires are his base.

I think we have a few more pragmatic issues and genuine values for the rest of the voting population on our side... :)

[Princess Turandot]

69. Personally, I prefer the myrrh....... eom

[incapsulated]

83. It's almost always mixed with Frankincense

Myrrh, on it's own, smells remarkably like balloons.

:)

[secular_warrior]

18. Remember, hardcore Protestants really hate Catholics

and consider themselves to be the "real" Christians.

Many Catholics would still vote Dem even if they were to agree with Repubs, because they know how Protestants in the GOP really feel about them.

WASPs will always believe themselves to be the master race/religion, created in the image of God who gave them America. The WASPs only stand with other religous conservatives (like Catholics and Jews) out of political pragmatism - but really plan on destroying them -- like everyone else -- in the end.

[JohnKleeb]

20. Ive always felt the WASPs really rule the country

but I am a psycho. Yeah, especially deep south it's like this where hardcore protestants hate Catholics, in fact the KKK's top target of their hatred other than blacks and jews is yep Catholics. How a former KKK guy David Duke did decently in Catholic Louisanna is beyond me though.

[annabanana]

79. old northern liberal wasps used to run the country

who's got the stats on how many presidents have been Episcopalian?

[amazona]

90. duke opened up the KKK membership to Catholics

...so David Duke pats himself on the back for being sooooo open-minded.

[Zookeeper]

21. Good for your mom, however....

her co-worker sounds very stupid and trying to change her would be a huge waste of time and energy. 'Better to work on the other, presumably more intelligent, people in her office.

I sure understand the frustration of dealing with that kind of hypocrite, though.

[hatrack]

22. Sorry, don't understand - is it Kerry's failure to roll on the floor?

Is it that he doesn't speak in tongues, wander around healing people, drink rat poison or handle venomous snakes to "prove his faith"? I mean, that seems to be what it takes to be considered "Christian" these days.

[incapsulated]

25. Those snake handlers

Have it all over other Christians, though. I mean, talk about testing your faith! They are too cool! Anyone can speak in tounges, just mimic Bush.

;)

[DemBones DemBones]

70. True story: a local snakehander died of snakebite some

ten or twelve years ago and a little girl in our parish heard something about it. Her father tried to explain the faith of the snakehandlers in a non-derogatory manner but at the end of his little talk, she said "I'd rather just take Communion!"

I have to agree with her, though I respect the snakehandlers for their faith.

[DeadHead67]

23. I PERSONALLY GUARANTEE not all christians are voting for Bush !

[grannylib]

31. Jesus died to take away our sins, not our minds...hence, I am a Christian

DEMOCRAT.

[AntiCoup2K4]

36. Damn, that's a great line, Granny!

Mind if I borrow that one? :)

[grannylib]

38. By all means!

[ochazuke]

32. Kerry supporters must speak up when in the presence of these nuts

I'm talking about the fundies, the religious fanatics, the church-going idiots who just go along with whatever they are told there.

Put your gut in it and let 'em have it. Ostracize them. Ridicule them. Mock them. These morons have got to be pushed back under the slime-covered rocks whence they came.

Your wimpy liberal instincts will get you another holocost if you don't join the resistance now.

Think I'm exaggerating? Well, did you ever think they would get THIS far? They're just getting started, let me tell you.

[AntiCoup2K4]

35. This Christian didn't vote for Junior or his daddy.

or Reagan either, despite the fact that he was revered more at my former Baptist church than Jesus Christ was.

[bliss_eternal]

50. kwolf68 post #7 Rocks! All I can say in response is...

...Right fuckin' on!

Why do these people bring up abortion all the time as to why they should vote for Bush? Do they think women just get up one day, and say 'hey...I'm feeling kind of abortive... let's go to the clinic....wheeeeee! This is gonna' be sooooo fun! Hot fuckin' damn!" Then she pumps up the Ozzy Osbourne and some expletive filled hip hop (because that is all these hate filled, evil women listen to) and drives down to the clinic, where she proceeds to happily fill out the paperwork and demand her fifth abortion of the year.

Give me a fuckin' break. Why do they think this is something women just can't wait to do if they let us? That they just want to have wanton sex and get pregnant on purpose so they can experience the joy that is abortion?

Yes, everytime I drive near a Planned Parenthood, it is obvious to me due to all the women happily skipping along, singing joyously and waiting in long lines outside impatiently hoping for their turn to go inside.

Yeah, right...

[Lexingtonian]

41. oh yes, that kind of "Christian"...they're all over

These are the people who love all the pagan accretions into their type of Christianity and hate or ignore all the parts Jesus of Nazareth actually taught and believed in.

A few of the Pagan accretions into conservative Christianity:
-infallibility of the Believer
-particular Divine favor bestowed on the Believer in return for gifts or flattery
-crimes don't count if they are perpetrated for God
-the 'death penalty' is pretended not to be ritualized murder
-unborns count as full human beings
-homosexuality is intolerable and has to be punished (or, destroyed)
-reading the Bible with pagan assumptions yields the true meaning of all passages
-Jewish interpretations of the Hebrew Bible (OT) can't possibly be true
-the Sermon On The Mount is not to be taken seriously
-the Law Of Love is...never mind, let's make that the Law of Patronizing False Authorities

The part about the Gods dealing misfortune to those who behave badly, especially those who insult them...that "Christian" woman probably knows that one to be true firsthand....

[LeftyMom]

61. Don't blame us!

I'm not sure what all that has to do with Paganism. Please don't blame us for the selfishness and stupidity of others. While some aspects of Christianity do come from various Pagan religions (the creation story is similar to the Babylonian one, Jesus and Mithra have a lot in common, etc.) ultimately fundies are responsible for thier own behavior.

[Lexingtonian]

67. of course not

I'm only saying their form of Christianity, to the extent that is is such, consists of emphasizing all the parts that Jesus didn't create or condone to the near-exclusion of all that He did and desired.

So of course you're not to blame.

And yes, these people read the Bible with hearts convinced of the same things as their pagan forefathers. The God described by Five Points Calvinism, to take a particularly clear example, much more closely resembles European nature deities like Jupiter and Wotan than the one (with four or five names reflecting our apprehensions of His aspects) of Judaism, especially the Judaism of Jesus's day. The pagan Nature Gods never much cared for individual human beings- the reason Europe was Christianized at all had to do with the humanity imputed to God via that innovation (to them) of Jesus, and the hardier pagans who didn't find that softness relevant were only converted via fire and the sword.

The sycretism, as it's called, goes extremely deep. You may want to look at Demuzil's reconstruction of the Indoeuropean Rain God Triad (Heavenly Father, Son/Sun, and Grandson) to find that the Trinity is not a new idea- it's a borrowed ancient one. (The fourth of the four major Gods in the Indoeuropean scheme is identified with fire and madness/wildness and is perpetually at war with the other three; he exists in Christianity as the Devil.) It seems that the Pauline churches of Asia Minor- modern day Turkey- did/began this fusion- the people there (Phrygians, Lydians, etc) were Indoeuropeans in language and religion at the time- and the Christians of Italy, Greece, etc. extended it.

So Christianity was molded to pretty strong compatibility to European pagan religions early on- in forms. Some seek out the core, the spirit and depths, of the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Others (our Christian Right fellow citizens) find the forms and accreted 'traditions' and traditional misreadings of the text far more to their liking than the very personal, challenging, teachings that demand of us to be genuine, to truly love, to suffer, to have moral courage, to be honest to ourselves, to live in humility. They fall in love with the word "righteous" as if it designated something people could achieve permanently, like a driver's license that doesn't get revoked ever, and entitles them to power over the people they don't like.

[Captain Lance Bass]

43. I dont like Christians if they are like Shrub n/t

[Erika]

47. I Told The Local Lutheran Head that Bush is NOT a Christian

for his killing innocents in Iraq by the thousands. He is voting for Kerry!!!

[SangamonTaylor]

48. "catholics aren't christians" --> I've had to deal with this so many times

and I truly find it repugnant.

[sr_pacifica]

64. That's interesting

as a catholic, I do not want to be called a christian.

[MADem]

51. Religion and Voting Patterns

Church attendance Conservative Moderate Liberal
Once a week 54% 33% 13%
Almost every week 47% 39% 14%
Once a month 38% 42% 19%
Seldom 31% 45% 24%
Never 26% 40% 34%

Source: USA TODAY/CNN/Gallup Polls taken from February 2003 to May 2004. More than 7,000 respondents combined from seven surveys; margin of error: +/- less than 2 percentage points

For whatever it might be worth, courtesy of our friends at the McPaper of Hotels and Airports across our land....

[Philostopher]

56. That's the kind of stuff that

eventually made me agnostic. I grew up in an evangelical church in southern Ohio, and spent my developing years being told, basically, that anything that wasn't my particular subflavor of flavor of belief was either a cult or misguided. The Methodists were going to hell because they didn't immersion baptize; the Baptists were going to hell because they didn't believe immersion baptism was necessary to enter into heaven; other sects of that particular church were going to hell because they didn't use musical instruments in their churches, or because they didn't take communion every Sunday, or because ... well, you get the idea. In other words, the subsect of a sect of a branch of the Protestant religion was the only true way to reach God. Oh, and if you disagreed with something they belived rationally, and had a reason, you were just a misguided sinner.

And don't even ask me what they thought of Catholics, but the words 'idolatry' and 'Mary' entered into the conversation frequently.

When I was old enough to begin to wonder why I was raised to believe you shouldn't hate, but that all those people were going to hell, the cognitive dissonance deafened me to the whole deal.

Most of the Catholics I've known over the years are more thoughtful than the Protestants I've known.

That being said, my whole family have always been Dems, some more liberal than others, and anybody who can be arsed to get up on November 2 and to vote will definitely be voting for Kerry. The ones who were old enough voted for John Kennedy, too, and he was a Catholic. I guess for us, core values were more important than the subsect of a sect of a branch of the Protestant church, and that was that.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bongo Prophet]

68. Hey, you just rode a unicycle through a mine field!

Well played, and welcome to DU!
I have heard Kerry give a legal rights answer to the question, which, while only a pertial answer, is still more than modern news/pundit/campaign format can take without shredding you for giving long "boring/nuanced/etc" answers.
The crux of the matter being that it doesn't matter whether "by birth or choice" we must protect rights of all. It was a loaded question at the debate that had code-meme landmines strewn throughout.

This post seemed better on another thread where it could be addressed in more detail, but it does speak to the problem of code-memes compacted into phrases (like a .zip file on a PC) that mean more to initiated members of certain tribes, another to a different tribe.

In addition, there is the ubiquitous error,
repeated forever,
irritating to those who know better,
yet never seems to die.

"In America we have lots of different religions. There's Christians, Catholics, Jews and..." or worse
"There's all kinds of religions practiced in our town-Baptists, Methodists, etc"

It's a "pet peeve" of mine, like the misuses of universe, when what is meant is galaxy, or even solar system.

Please indulge me while I scream into a pillow.

[bliss_eternal]

59. sitting in church once a week makes one a christian, like

sitting in a chicken coop makes one a hen.

[nightperson]

60. Can this woman spell Winthrop?

Kerry's direct ancestor. She really, really doesn't wanna go there.

[Princess Turandot]

62. I posted a link in a different thread from a 2002 survey..

done by Pew Research on religion's role in American life.It has a variety of surveys, including non-Islamic American's view of Islam, and whether religious organizations should endorse candidates. White Mainline Protestants and White Catholics say 'no' by 78% and 73% respectively. The highest number saying 'yes' are High Commitment White Evengelical Protestants at 41% followed by Black Protestants at 34%.

The document can be accessed at:
http://pewforum.org/publications/reports/poll2002.pdf

and the Religion, Politics & policies section starts on page 21 of the document.I haven't read enough of it to know why they only reference White Mainline Protestants and White Catholics.

I got the link from a website called Adherents.com, which tracks world wide religious affiliation demographics in several ways.

[sr_pacifica]

63. In fact, Christian and Catholic are very different

So, yeah, Kerry isn't a christian, but he is Catholic.

I'm speaking here of identity. Non-Catholic believers in christ have always referred to themselves as "Christian". I have to say, I've heard the term used in so many negative contexts, that the term creeps me out. I use it as a perjorative myself, because to me it means any one rigidly conforming to the literal bible.

[Bridget Burke]

66. Not really.

Roman Catholicism is a subset of Christianity--which also includes all the Protestant faiths & Orthodox Catholicism.

Anybody who loudly claims how "Christian" they are is generally one of the throwbacks to our Puritanical founders who hates & feared all the Papists. Don't let them define our language.

[JohnKleeb]

71. right

Not all Christians are Catholic but all Catholics are Christians.
I am technically a Roman Catholic but I consider myself just Catholic because of some in my family having background in "Greek Catholicism" which is a lot like Eastern Orthodoxy but its Catholicism.

[annabanana]

80. pls check dictionary def. of "catholic"...small "c"........

The name Catholic came as a reaction to schism. Kind of like calling non-digital clocks "analog"... Before digital was invented, no other name was necessary.

[Free2BMe]

81. If Christ were here he'd have his foot on their rich, fat butts...

and scream hypocrites....and we wouldn't be talking about the garbage of the last four years..we'd be taking care of that mother raising 3 children on 13,000 dollars..who by the way the Nevada representative said "minimum wage jobs aren't for people raising families.." what the heck is she to do with her kids..Her daughter is going into the army because she can afford any other way of life...crap..

[nolabels]

65. Did you hear about the new group the atheists are starting up

Their goal is to turn the whole world into groups of people in denial of others, can you believe that?

[whirlygigspin]

76. I'm so old, I remember when we seperated religion from politics

...until we got stuck with this fraudulent asshole who uses religion as a political devise.

Fuck him, I hope he burns in hell for it.

[nolabels]

85. A matter of degrees

We could be living in own Hell right here on earth. But if you believe, you or your person goes somewhere else after this so called death, why would want go to another place where this guy might be also.

This love your enemy thing is just not be possible with this dude That ideal is just totally repulsive to me. If there is such thing as a Gawd or such, it's going to have to make some exceptions.

I was so relieved when his pappy left, but when they this guy is running, I thought how it possible? I thought he would never get elected anyway. I now know anything is possible, so I am thinking up my darnedest thoughts for the guy. Burning in Hell would be much to nice for him if you ask me. But thank heaven I don't need to curse him.

I only hope or pray that he goes away quietly (if I did that type of thing), but if not, it would not be anything new anyway.

[ogradda]

75. catholics are christians

we sure are :)

[Cats Against Frist]

82. Holy shit, these people are fucking brainwashed

This degree of mass delusion can never be good.

Little facts: 40 percent of the republican electorate are Evangelicals.

31 percent of people who identify themselves as Evangelicals believe the literal events in the book of Revelations within their lifetime.

Twenty-five percent of those who identify themselves as "fundamentalists" believe the literal events in the book of Revelations will take place within their lifetime.

I've read that over half the U.S. population claims to be "born again" Christians.

I believe in the non-mystical transformational message of Jesus Christ, but I don't necessarily believe in the mystical aspect of Christianity -- I simply say, "I don't know." I consider anyone who claims to KNOW there is a god, either clinically ill with undiagnosed hyperreligiosity, or brainwashed.

Someone once told me that the only way to stop these people is to "beat them back with a stick." It scares the crap out of me, but if you want to know the answer to the one simple question, "Why the FUCK is Bush getting half the vote?" you need look no further than the Christian Right. Jerry Falwell claims that Evangelicals "own" the GOP. He's right.

[orpupilofnature57]

84. every Christian is guilty of pulling Jesus out of the sky,fundies

Are what the lady should have said.

[DaveSZ]

87. There are Christians, and then there are Taliban-like "Christians"

There is a huge difference.

[endnote]

86. Isn't Catholic "Christian" ? Christ is the core of the Catholic religion

[PSU84]

89. "Evangelicals" have hi-jacked the term "Christian"

If there were such as place as hell, that's where they'd go.

[USA_1]

92. What a TRUE Catholic and true Christian Believes .......

... http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/11/opinion/11roche.html


Kerry's beliefs and actions are embodied in true Catholic and true Christian ideals.

[Kinkistyle]

94. Moses, Noah and Jesus weren't Christian either.

Neither was King Solomon. Oh well, guess if they ran for president they'd lose too in our great free country.

[Malva Zebrina]

96. that is exactly right

Jesus was a Jew and practiced his religion faithfully. Mary his mother was also a Jew and practiced her religion faithfully.

It was Paul who fought with the Jerusalem followers of the Jew, Jesus who actually lived and knew Jesus, who never met Jesus and says little about him, who invented Christianity and turned Jesus into a Christian according to the new religion he himself invented. He was quite the con man--a politician at best.

[gauguin57]

97. Have your mother print out these two articles for her!

(forgive me, mods, but I'm giving snips of four paragraphs APIECE for EACH of these stories)

Here's a piece about the way Bush is noncommittal in his speech, to compensate for the vagueness of his religion.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A24634-2004Sep15?language=printer

snip:

"...But Bush had not actually said that abortion is tantamount to murder. Nor, according to aides, has he ever said that all abortions should be illegal. When asked by reporters during the 2000 presidential campaign and again last fall whether abortion should be banned, Bush said the nation was not ready for that step, without indicating his position.

"George W. Bush is among the most openly religious presidents in U.S. history. A daily Bible reader, he often talks about how Jesus changed his heart. He has spoken, publicly and privately, of hearing God's call to run for the presidency and of praying for God's help since he came into office.

"But despite the centrality of Bush's faith to his presidency, he has revealed only the barest outline of his beliefs, leaving others to sift through the clues and make assumptions about where he stands. Bush has said many times that he is a Christian, believes in the power of prayer and considers himself a "lowly sinner." But White House aides said they do not know whether the president believes that: the Bible is without error; the theory of evolution is true; homosexuality is a sinful choice; only Christians will go to heaven; support for Israel is a biblical imperative; or the war in Iraq is part of God's plan.

Some political analysts think there is a shrewd calculation behind these ambiguities. By using such phrases as the "culture of life," Bush signals to evangelical Protestants and conservative Catholics that he is with them, while he avoids taking explicit stands that might alienate other voters or alarm foreign leaders. Bush and his chief speechwriter, Michael J. Gerson, are "very gifted at crafting references that religious insiders will understand and outsiders may not," said the Rev. Jim Wallis ...


And here's the infamous Gail Sheehy story from Vanity Fair from 2000. This shows how hollow Bush's supposed "conversion" really was. It makes me sick.

http://gailsheehy.com/Politics/polimain_bush3.html

"... Bush's drinking had become more than just an embarrassment to the whole family. Laura Bush, a Midland librarian whom Bush had married when he was 31, tried the soft sell, taking him, along with the Evanses and the Joneses, to a religious lecture series given by Christian author and broadcaster James Dobson. But Bush refused to behave himself. "Laura would be sitting next to George, and George would come around to sit next to me" so the two could crack jokes, says Jones. "What kind of pants did the Levites wear?" Bush would whisper.

"...In 1985, Don Evans urged Bush to join a new kind of men's group—a franchised Community Bible Study program for men, a precursor to the Promise Keepers. ... But Jones doesn't remember Bush taking that spiritual exercise very seriously either. The pastor would ask a question from the lesson: "What happened to the Jew on his way to Jericho?" "He got his butt whipped," Bush shot back. ... And when his attention span was exceeded, he set his watch to go off in the middle of the pastor's spiel. The other men guffawed, and the following week they all set their watches and the class turned into a cacophony of alarm bells. Jones, who can point to the exact date when he became a born-again Christian, never heard Bush describe a conversion experience. "He never said he was spiritually empty. It's my understanding that his profession of faith was made in 1986, after the Reverend Billy Graham visited."

"... Probably mindful of Big George's savaging by the Christian right, Mrs. Bush told reporters that her son has always read the Bible. (Bush challenged that myth in a recent interview with The Washington Post: "No, I wasn't reading the Bible when I was younger.") It is also his mother who likes to tell the conversion story ... "

[goodboy]

99. birds of a feather flock together...

and in this case, it's apocolyptic christian hypocrite fascist evil bastards...

[Laelth]

101. Jesus was the world's greatest liberal ...

Seriously, just ask yourself ... who would Jesus vote for? 'Nuf said. :smoke:

-Laelth

[Beware the Beast Man]

102. Who's to say who is "Christian" and who is not?

This really kills me. I am a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. To judge someone as not a Christian or not a "good" Christian is to not see the plank in your own eye. Basically, to the fundagelical right, to not follow their extremely narrow vision of the teachings of Christ is not Christian in their eyes. :grr: