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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 11:58 AM
Original message
"Without a Doubt" -Sun NYT Mag (we were so, so right. he's nuts)
Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a treasury official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.

''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has gone off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . .

''This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts,'' Bartlett went on to say. ''He truly believes he's on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.'' Bartlett paused, then said, ''But you can't run the world on faith.''
.........
The faith-based presidency is a with-us-or-against-us model that has been enormously effective at, among other things, keeping the workings and temperament of the Bush White House a kind of state secret. The dome of silence cracked a bit in the late winter and spring, with revelations from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke and also, in my book, from the former Bush treasury secretary Paul O'Neill. When I quoted O'Neill saying that Bush was like ''a blind man in a room full of deaf people,'' this did not endear me to the White House. But my phone did begin to ring, with Democrats and Republicans calling with similar impressions and anecdotes about Bush's faith and certainty. These are among the sources I relied upon for this article. Few were willing to talk on the record. Some were willing to talk because they said they thought George W. Bush might lose; others, out of fear of what might transpire if he wins. In either case, there seems to be a growing silence fatigue -- public servants, some with vast experience, who feel they have spent years being treated like Victorian-era children, seen but not heard, and are tired of it. But silence still reigns in the highest reaches of the White House. After many requests, Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, said in a letter that the president and those around him would not be cooperating with this article in any way....WAY, WAY, MORE.......

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?oref=login&oref=login
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
1. Wow...that's quite a broadside! The warning shot has just been fired!
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lancdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
5. Mr. Bartlett's comments
are exactly what mayn of us have been saying for years. He's brave to go public with this, on the record.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #1
79. Excellent and well worth the read time ...
this should be distributed far and wide for this is what the Sinclair efforts are trying to distract this nation from ...take a good look at Mr. Bush.
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jwirr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #79
91. At this time I would like to suggest
a little distraction of our own. On the night Sinclair airs his movie we should all invite our neighbors over for our movies: Going Up River, F9/11, Outfoxed and so on. Have a potluck and make it a party. Be sure to invite the undecided voter in your neighborhood.
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whistle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
2. If this is true, what will stop Bush from pulling off a coup on Nov 3....
...following a Kerry victory?
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
78. John Kerry will stop George Bush
Kerry is not Al Gore and this is not the 2000 election.

Kerry and the rest of us are not going to let these bastards get away with their bullshit again.
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
3. The party should just fall apart and cease to exist.
Repugs have done so much damage to America that they could help America by closing up shop.
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
73. What about this?
What about the notion of the more mainstream republicans forcing the true believers to break off and form their own religious party. After all, as much as you might dislike folks like John McCain, the reality (I think) is that he's not enamored of the rightwing fundamentalist evangelical takeover of his party. That being the case, do you think it's possible that folks like McCain and Lincoln Chaffee and others would either force the nutters to form their own party or, alternatively, to break away and form their own new party?

Okay, maybe this is fantasy -- after all, regardless of the agenda of the ultra right wingers, the reality is that, as republicans, they are in power, and even the moderates benefit from that. And maybe having any power is better than struggling to regain legitimacy by forming their own new party.

But that's what we have now, whether we want to believe it or not -- three parties. The democrats, the mainstream republicans, and the theocrats.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #73
85. i agree, make the right wing religious extremists
form their own party so they can pave their own highway to hell.
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 04:52 AM
Response to Reply #73
93. I don't think it's a fantasy
If anything good can come out of the last four years, it just might be that people have got a glimpse of America under God. No, not the real God, the God that can't wait for the second coming so he can roast the flesh off all us infidels.

Having a dumbass prez with a messianic complex and a country full of nukes is extremely spooky to any of those with all their faculties. I can remember when the Republican party agenda was scary but not Armageddon scary. You can see a lot of religious organizations pulling away.
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MidwestTransplant Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
4. I anticipate a civil war w/in their party if they loose.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #4
60. There was bloody infighting in North Carolina last summer ...
... as the wingnut Repubs launched primary challenges against moderate Repub incumbents in state government.
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Morning Dew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
6. He understands them, because he's just like them
This is what Shrub is all about.

He knows he got promoted in school without merit so he'll make damn sure no one else will.

He hid out in the Guard during Viet Nam - no one else will be allowed to hide out in the Guard.

His religious conversion is a sham so Karla Faye Tucker's must have been as well - execute her.

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berner59 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. This article is frightening!!
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 12:24 PM by berner59
Read it this morning and just went "wow"... Wonder if NY Times used last week's Kerry magazine article to set Bush up for this one?? They made such a big deal about the "nuisance" comment and obviously regarded the NY Times as credible - what's the defense of this one now??? Kerry better blast every great quote from this...such as Bush insisting Sweden is the "neutral one and they don't have an army" after being told they did...what an idiot...
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #7
19. That was freaky.
They all just waited until someone changed the subject. I got the same vibe reading this as when reading about Hitler. Whether it's a factually applicable analogy or not, Bush receives the same unearned deference.
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winstars Donating Member (405 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
33. DO NOT DISTURB

If you think about it, the fact that these people are afraid to correct him is nothing new. When we were attacked on 9/11, it was these same jerkoff's that let him continue reading with (NOT reading to) those children. Not one of them had the balls (Karen Hughes???) to simply say "Hey man, we gotta split right the fuck now!!!!!!!!!! What a bunch of punks!!! Yeah right, this "Now the adults are in charge" bullshit is just not borne out by the facts...

In a way, we were lucky the bastards attacked us at 8;46am and not anytime after 10;00pm. Forget about wasting minutes in a school, it might have been like a certain night in June 1944, when someones General Staff was too afraid to wake the old boy up and lost precious time responding to an attack!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Idiots
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matt819 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #7
74. Frightening is the right word
And not only the description of this madman's view of the world but also the fact that his base -- what was it, some 42% of Americans -- believes this crap lock, stock, and barrel. These nutters are truly scary.
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #74
84. I saw 70 million ...
... self-proclaimed "evangelical Christians." Roughly 25% of the nation's population.

Yikes! :scared:

-Laelth
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #74
94. The list is getting longer
We have to get * out
Take back our media
And figure out a way to stop the massive money flowing from the religious right into our government.
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CityHall Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:21 PM
Response to Original message
8. About F'n time
Why has it taken sensible Republicans so long to see this? These people just don't take policy seriously. They think they're protected from on high, and nothing they do will have serious consequences for the future of the country.
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Tansy_Gold Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
20. "sensible republicans"
If they're sensible, they will either not vote, or vote Kerry.

boosh can't be elected without them, so if he *is* elected, they have no one to blame but themselves.

A civil war within their own party if he wins? I don't think so. They'll have drunk the kool-aid, they'll acquiesce.

They don't have to wait for Nov. 3 to have their revolution. They can have it on Nov. 2 (or before) by voting for Kerry. Kerry is closer to traditional republicanism -- and Edwards is even closer -- than boosh.
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AlCzervik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:23 PM
Response to Original message
9. i actually printed that whole article out
scary shit.
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jonnyblitz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #9
80. so did I. n/t
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
10. Dupe, we need to consolidate these two threads. This is important stuff.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:31 PM
Response to Original message
11. Jesus, Joseph, and Mary, look at this:
The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #11
16. No kidding
Scary scary scary. :scared:
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LizW Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #11
63. That is one freaking scary quote.
We have gone beyond the bizarre. I keep remembering old X-Files episodes where Mulder would meet with those guys in the shadowy "consortium" and they would say obscure things like, "The best way to predict the future, Mr. Mulder, is to create it." And "Truth? There is no truth, Mr. Mulder. We make it up as we go along."

We're living the X-Files. :scared:
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AntiFascist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
72. Amazing!
All of the progress of the Enlightenment, including Jeffersonian philosophy, will be undone by Bush if he has his way!
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Laelth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #11
86. Yes!
That's the problem folks! Democracy depends on the rational analysis of facts (the idea being that rational citizens, discussing and considering the facts, will then make rational decisions about the course of the nation). But if the citizens don't believe in "facts," and if, instead, the follow their leader in blind faith, and if, even worse that leader takes actions not on the basis of fact but, instead, acts upon his own blind faith ... well, there's only one word for that kind of government ...

DICTATORSHIP

This essay explains so much. Ever wonder why it's so hard to have a rational discussion with a freeper? This essay explains it. They don't believe in facts!.

Our democracy is in serious jeapordy!

-Laelth

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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
12. This is the "foot on Kerry's throat" article- here's the snip>
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 12:35 PM by party_line
(and he thought that Sweden was Switzerland. No one would correct him. omg) :scared:

"I'm going to be real positive, while I keep my foot on John Kerry's throat,'' George W. Bush said last month at a confidential luncheon a block away from the White House with a hundred or so of his most ardent, longtime supporters, the so-called R.N.C. Regents. This was a high-rolling crowd -- at one time or another, they had all given large contributions to Bush or the Republican National Committee. Bush had known many of them for years, and a number of them had visited him at the ranch. It was a long way from Poplar Bluff.

The Bush these supporters heard was a triumphal Bush, actively beginning to plan his second term. It is a second term, should it come to pass, that will alter American life in many ways, if predictions that Bush voiced at the luncheon come true.

He said emphatically that he expects the Republicans will gain seats to expand their control of the House and the Senate. According to notes provided to me, and according to several guests at the lunch who agreed to speak about what they heard, he said that ''Osama bin Laden would like to overthrow the Saudis . . .

then we're in trouble. Because they have a weapon. They have the oil.'' He said that there will be an opportunity to appoint a Supreme Court justice shortly after his inauguration, and perhaps three more high-court vacancies during his second term.

''Won't that be amazing?'' said Peter Stent, a rancher and conservationist who attended the luncheon. ''Can you imagine? Four appointments!''
........
But as the hour passed, Bush kept coming back to the thing most on his mind: his second term.

''I'm going to come out strong after my swearing in,'' Bush said, ''with fundamental tax reform, tort reform, privatizing of Social Security.'' The victories he expects in November, he said, will give us ''two years, at least, until the next midterm. We have to move quickly, because after that I'll be quacking like a duck.''
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Bluebear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
53. ay yi yi yi
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #12
90. No "swearing in" for
you, asshole! And you can just leave my future Social Security ALONE!
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hlthe2b Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:37 PM
Response to Original message
13. This only confirms what I've always thought & it is TERRIFYING!
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Scary stuff. Especially combined with this psychologist's article
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MissMarple Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
35. "So George, how do you feel about your mom and dad."
Interesting article, especially with the reference to fascism.

"The outcome of this childhood was what psychologists call an authoritarian personality. Authoritarianism was identified shortly after the second world war as part of research to discover the causes of fascism. As the name suggests, authoritarians impose the strictest possible discipline on themselves and others - the sort of regime found in today's White House, where prayers precede daily business, appointments are scheduled in five-minute blocks, women's skirts must be below the knee and Bush rises at 5.45am, invariably fitting in a 21-minute, three-mile jog before lunch.

Authoritarian personalities are organised around rabid hostility to "legitimate" targets, often ones nominated by their parents' prejudices. Intensely moralistic, they direct it towards despised social groups. As people, they avoid introspection or loving displays, preferring toughness and cynicism. They regard others with suspicion, attributing ulterior motives to the most innocent behaviour. They are liable to be superstitious. All these traits have been described in Bush many times, by friends or colleagues.

His moralism is all-encompassing and as passionate as can be. He plans to replace state welfare provision with faith-based charitable organisations that would impose Christian family values.

.....

He has always rejected any kind of introspection. Everyone who knows him well says how hard he is to get to know, that he lives behind what one friend calls a "facile, personable" facade. Frum comments that, "He is relentlessly disciplined and very slow to trust. Even when his mouth seems to be smiling at you, you can feel his eyes watching you."

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #35
42. bush doesn't run anymore..
bum knee.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. The article came out last year, but it's still a good analysis
of Bush's personality, and ties in really well with the Suskind article for the NY Times.
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highplainsdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. Thanks for posting those quotes. I should've quoted some of
the Guardian article earlier, to show how relevant it is, and not just posted the link.
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Logansquare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
15. "The guy is completely batshit" (great quote from DailyKos)
"Obviously, I'm not a fan of Bush--why else would I be here? I've always thought of him as being astonishingly right wing, a half-bright dry-drunk, with a poor work ethic and little intellectual curiosity.

Reading this article, though, has changed my mind. The guy is completely batshit."
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/10/16/1207/7146
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
17. Wow! Now, if the Cable News Channels and the Big Three will only run this
Otherwise, another great voice will be lost in the noise of spin.
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
18. Acutally, I nominate this for DU Homepage!
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Roland99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
21. People like Brent Scowcroft are now speaking up
http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/epaper/2004/10/16/a17a_scowcroft_1016.html

Brent Scowcroft, national security adviser to President George H.W. Bush, was highly critical of the current president's handling of foreign policy in an interview published this week, saying that the current president was "mesmerized" by Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, that Iraq was a "failing venture" and that the administration's unilateralist approach had harmed relations between Europe and the United States.

Scowcroft's remarks, reported in London's Financial Times, are unusual coming from a leading Republican less than three weeks before a highly contested election. In the first Bush administration Scowcroft was a mentor to Condoleezza Rice, the current national security adviser, and he is regarded as a close associate of Bush's father.
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popstalin Donating Member (163 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
22. It reminds me of the Stephen King Movie
The Dead Zone where Martin Sheen's character is convinced that he was elected to end the world.

Scary stuff!

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bushwakker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
23. It will be much worse if he LOSES
having to toe the party line to support the prez will tamp down any real civil war within the gop. that's another reason why this election is so important. they will cannibilize one another if they lose. it will be so much fun to watch.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
24. He understands them, because he's just like them. . . .
that says it all
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humanbeing Donating Member (133 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. i have no words to describe...
how scared this makes me.

I feel like this country is teetering on the edge of a cliff, with a canyon of theocracy and dictatorship, hell and damnation down below, and the proud secular tradition of reason, progress, and decency above.

I just hope that, if worst comes to worst, 4 years isn't enough time for him to completely and irreversibly dismantle everything I love about this country.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:10 PM
Response to Original message
25. Does GWB believe in the Armageddon Theory?
I have long suspected that he has no sense of future because he believes we are fast approaching the End Times. Ergo, we can use it all up, wear all of it out and throw it all away.

Does anybody have any insight into the President's religious doctrine?

At any rate, I WILL NOT SIGN ON TO HIS BLOODY CRUSADE.
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Paxdora Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. YES!
He f**king believes "The Rapture" crap in the Holey Bibble, honest to Gourd!

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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #31
37. The idea of "The Rapture" is not in the Bible, and

is a relatively recent idea that arose among some Protestants.
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indigolady Donating Member (127 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. That's right...
A good book on that subject, "The Rapture Exposed," by Barbara R. Rossing, theological teacher and ordained minister in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America writes:
"The Rapture has its origins in the nineteenth century--beginning . . . with a young girl's vision. In 1830, in Port Glasgow, Scotland, fifteen year old Margaret Macdonald attended a healing service. There, she was said to have seen a vision of a two-stage return of Jesus Christ. The story of her vision was adopted and amplified by John Nelson Darby, a British evangelical preacher and founder of the Plymouth Brethren."
The book of Revelations is really about a "new vision of nonviolent love to change the world." The old paradigm was about Empire. The thinking of Bush and those who think they can kill "evildoers" by becoming evildoers themselves are the antipathy of Christ. The early Christians were oppressed by the Roman Empire, which many historians can trace to the American Empire; if not directly, in attitude.
Democrats and supporters of John Kerry (all of us) need to be aware of this. We are at a point in history where we need to realize the spiritual message of Jesus. The Christ message. The Christ Consciousness message. The "lamb' symbolism is about peace. Love is the only think that can erase "evil." Light is the only thing that can remove darkness. You can't shoot it, you can't bomb it, you can't kill it. You can only love it. And that takes courage and faith. Real Faith.
Blessings to you all; peace on earth, goodwill to all men and women.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 05:36 PM
Response to Reply #41
45. Thanks for those details! I'm not sure I ever read about the

young girl with the vision before, but I knew the Rapture idea only dated to sometime in the 19th century. I was "officially" raised in the Presbyterian Church but often went to Baptist Sunday School with friends and never heard of the Rapture. I first learned about in 1984 when I started teaching in rural Appalachian Georgia and had students who believed in it, students who went to the snake handling church, etc.

People certainly have a right to their beliefs, even the more obscure ones, but some are not based on anything taught in the Bible or even by early Christian tradition, and the Rapture is a prime example of a new interpretation.

The core of the Christian message is the peace and love taught and exemplified by Jesus.
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
49. Thank you, Sunsetbeach dem
Blessings to you, too.

:-)
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 05:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
95. Nice post Thanks. n/t
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #31
54. Jiminy Christmas!!! What a picture!
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carnie_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #31
62. Actually ...
there is no "rapture" in the bible. That is an invention (heresy) of american fundies, with no grounding in more established religious traditions (e.g. catholicism, anglicanism, etc). But, as far as I know, * does believe in that crap, so would feel absolutely no compunction about decimating our home planet. Incidentally, James Watt felt the same way.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #25
51. I remember Woodward asking him how history will remember us...
Bush said it didn't matter, we'd all be dead. Not a deep thinker, Bush, so I wouldn't say he's ever thought Armageddon all the way through.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 07:21 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. That quote is exactltly what made me wonder about his
End Times theory.
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NVMojo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #25
88. i would say he does believe in the armagedon theory
but i did find it puzzling that he wanted to let the Israelis and Paliestinians fight it out alone if he withdrew the US support. Maybe he figured that would cause Armagedon??
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illuminaughty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 05:13 AM
Response to Reply #88
96. I think that's their theory
Not sure, because it's massively loony and not based on scripture, but the point is to step up the second coming.

And supposedly the illuminati believe that they must return to Jerusalem to rebuild Solomon's temple. But to do this, they must destroy the El Aqsa mosque on the temple mount.
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lfs5 Donating Member (104 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #25
92. Armageddon
As a Bible-believing, allegedly born-again Christian, he would most definitely embrace this and all other aspects of the Bible as literal truth--not allegory--but truth, and advancing end-times is the goal of many of the Christians now living in Israel, though I'm not sure how close Bush's views would mirror their own, I feel certain he would believe he was carrying out God's wishes if he could speed us to the end...the final confrontation between good and evil. The question is--as a Christian myself--I often wonder if he is not a tool of Satan sent to deceive believers who seem willing to abandon the Biblical principles of Christ to follow Bush into Old Testament scenarios of vengeance and retribution.
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baltodemvet Donating Member (529 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
26. This civil war has been heating up all year
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 02:18 PM by baltodemvet
There are a lot of republicans who think Bush has taken the country and the party to hell in a handbasket and are hoping Bush will lose.

In fact, Bush has been getting little stabs in the back pretty regularly lately (think Scowcroft & Bremmer) There will be more, I'm sure: death by a thousand cuts.
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mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
27. Don't forget he's not only crazy but incompetent:
Edited on Sat Oct-16-04 02:23 PM by Kanzeon
Bush has been called the C.E.O. president, but that's just a catch phrase -- he never ran anything of consequence in the private sector. The M.B.A. president would be more accurate: he did, after all, graduate from Harvard Business School. And some who have worked under him in the White House and know about business have spotted a strange business-school time warp. It's as if a 1975 graduate from H.B.S. -- one who had little chance to season theory with practice during the past few decades of change in corporate America -- has simply been dropped into the most challenging management job in the world. ...


Rubenstein described that time to a convention of pension managers in Los Angeles last year, recalling that Malek approached him and said: ''There is a guy who would like to be on the board. He's kind of down on his luck a bit. Needs a job. . . . Needs some board positions.'' Though Rubenstein didn't think George W. Bush, then in his mid-40's, ''added much value,'' he put him on the Caterair board. ''Came to all the meetings,'' Rubenstein told the conventioneers. ''Told a lot of jokes. Not that many clean ones. And after a while I kind of said to him, after about three years: 'You know, I'm not sure this is really for you. Maybe you should do something else. Because I don't think you're adding that much value to the board. You don't know that much about the company.' He said: 'Well, I think I'm getting out of this business anyway. And I don't really like it that much. So I'm probably going to resign from the board.' And I said thanks. Didn't think I'd ever see him again.''

Bush would soon officially resign from Caterair's board. Around this time, Karl Rove set up meetings to discuss Bush's possible candidacy for the governorship of Texas. Six years after that, he was elected leader of the free world and began ''case cracking'' on a dizzying array of subjects, proffering his various solutions, in both foreign and domestic affairs. But the pointed ''defend your position'' queries -- so central to the H.B.S. method and rigorous analysis of all kinds -- were infrequent. Questioning a regional supervisor or V.P. for planning is one thing. Questioning the president of the United States is another.

Still, some couldn't resist. As I reported in ''The Price of Loyalty,'' at the Bush administration's first National Security Council meeting, Bush asked if anyone had ever met Ariel Sharon. Some were uncertain if it was a joke. It wasn't: Bush launched into a riff about briefly meeting Sharon two years before, how he wouldn't ''go by past reputations when it comes to Sharon. . . . I'm going to take him at face value,'' and how the United States should pull out of the Arab-Israeli conflict because ''I don't see much we can do over there at this point.'' Colin Powell, for one, seemed startled. This would reverse 30 years of policy -- since the Nixon administration -- of American engagement. Such a move would unleash Sharon, Powell countered, and tear the delicate fabric of the Mideast in ways that might be irreparable. Bush brushed aside Powell's concerns impatiently. ''Sometimes a show of force by one side can really clarify things.''


The man lacks any sense of accountability, and his staff does too, for not forcing the administration team to be better run.

THIS IS WHY 9/11 HAPPENED. Remember "My Pet Goat?" It took 7 minutes not just for Bush to leave, but for somebody on his staff to get him. That's right.
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chrislrob Donating Member (40 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 02:58 PM
Response to Original message
29. Well. That was chilling.

Ever get the feeling you're in some schlocky B-movie? Like Ed Wood's version of the "Manchurian Candidate" or something?

Simply scary shit.
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Alenne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:02 PM
Response to Original message
30. We are in so much trouble if this man is elected.
Not only is he crazy but obviously a large segment of America is crazy also.
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:04 PM
Response to Original message
32. If Bush loses, get ready for "Operation: Rapture"
Fire missles into the heart of major Middle Eastern cities. Mecca, Damascus, Tehran, and maybe NK for good measure. Cheney and Bush hide in a bunker with their neocon friends waiting for Christ to come down and clean up their mess while the world descends into chaos.

Bush really is that fucking nuts.
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DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:13 PM
Response to Reply #32
38. I don't see Cheney going along with that

sort of thing. I think he's evil incarnate, but not nuts enough to provoke Armageddon. I've never heard anything about his religious beliefs but I'm guessing they don't include a willingness to speed up the end times.
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grasswire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:15 PM
Response to Original message
34. on the last page of the article..
...is the conclusion that the fate of the world lies in WHAT GEORGE THINKS GOD IS SAYING TO HIM.

Don't we generally put people like that in a mental health facility for observation?

Can the unfinished American experiment in self-governance -- sputtering on the watery fuel of illusion and assertion -- deal with something as nuanced as the subtleties of one man's faith? What, after all, is the nature of the particular conversation the president feels he has with God -- a colloquy upon which the world now precariously turns?

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chimpymustgo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. This man is insane.
Will the corporate media read and digest this incredible piece of journalism? Will they advance the story at all?
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:31 PM
Response to Original message
39. All sorts of shit can accumulate in an empty vessel.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:36 PM
Response to Original message
40. Ron Susskind has written a masterpiece
Here's the chilling conclusion:

Can the unfinished American experiment in self-governance -- sputtering on the watery fuel of illusion and assertion -- deal with something as nuanced as the subtleties of one man's faith? What, after all, is the nature of the particular conversation the president feels he has with God -- a colloquy upon which the world now precariously turns?

That very issue is what Jim Wallis wishes he could sit and talk about with George W. Bush. That's impossible now, he says. He is no longer invited to the White House.

''Faith can cut in so many ways,'' he said. ''If you're penitent and not triumphal, it can move us to repentance and accountability and help us reach for something higher than ourselves. That can be a powerful thing, a thing that moves us beyond politics as usual, like Martin Luther King did. But when it's designed to certify our righteousness -- that can be a dangerous thing. Then it pushes self-criticism aside. There's no reflection.

''Where people often get lost is on this very point,'' he said after a moment of thought. ''Real faith, you see, leads us to deeper reflection and not -- not ever -- to the thing we as humans so very much want.''

And what is that?

''Easy certainty.''


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UpsideDownFlag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #40
64. is that from "the price of loyalty"?
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
76. The defining of a Great President is here:
''Faith can cut in so many ways,'' he said. ''If you're penitent and not triumphal, it can move us to repentance and accountability and help us reach for something higher than ourselves. That can be a powerful thing, a thing that moves us beyond politics as usual, like Martin Luther King did. But when it's designed to certify our righteousness -- that can be a dangerous thing. Then it pushes self-criticism aside. There's no reflection.

''Where people often get lost is on this very point,'' he said after a moment of thought. ''Real faith, you see, leads us to deeper reflection and not -- not ever -- to the thing we as humans so very much want.''

And what is that?

''Easy certainty.''

****************

As I read those words, I thought of Kennedy. He had his dark moments with the Bay of Pigs - and he LEARNED from his experience! MLK used his faith as a clarion call for justice and equality. bush "uses" his faith to push his own agenda. That itself, is the incarnation of evil.

A good definition of "sin" is "misplaced allegiance." The "original sin" of Adam and Eve had nothing to do with sex: it was about the desire "to be like God."

And quite frankly, that's what I'm seeing from bush. It chills me.
:scared:
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KayLaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:51 PM
Response to Original message
43. I must say
I am surprised. I figured he was a pickled country-club Republican, pretending to be born again so he could overcome his terrible past and be elected, dangerous only because of his stupidity. All liberals, conservatives, libertarians, Republicans, and Democrats need to come together and vote away this threat to existence. Don't like Kerry? Okay, we'll vote him into office and start from there. Better than being " liberated " by some Asian or European alliance. I believe Americans need to pull together while we can.
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Gin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 04:55 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. this paragraph says it all....about these cocky pricks....

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''


These bush people are Pricks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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endnote Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:25 AM
Response to Reply #44
67. This SAME paragraph was the one that scared me!
I posted it on a bunch of boards. As if being "reality-based" were an option. As if, by ignoring it, the greenhouse effect will go away by itself... This is fucking crazy... They are clinically insane... They've reverted to the Middle Ages....
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:15 PM
Response to Original message
47. hmmmm.
:scared:

'This is why he dispenses with people who confront him with inconvenient facts,'' Bartlett went on to say. ''He truly believes he's on a mission from God. Absolute faith like that overwhelms a need for analysis. The whole thing about faith is to believe things for which there is no empirical evidence.'
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RevCheesehead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #47
77. That ain't faith - it's denial
or delusional thinking.

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naufragus Donating Member (239 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
50. The Repugs should throw the election...
They really need a purge. should bush get 4 more years, his power will be absolute. it will all collopse around him. they lose in 08 FOR SURE and the backlash may go on for years. with a kerry win, if things go bad its great. they still have a shot even if things turn around. they can run a candidate of substance who can take on kerry and not look like golum on crank.

they also still have congress without chimpoleon

it is really better for them to lose this time.
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
55. Dowd references Suskind in her piece
In today's Times Magazine, Ron Suskind writes that Mr. Bush has created a "faith-based presidency" that has riven the Republican Party.

Bruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a Treasury official for the first President Bush, told Mr. Suskind that some people now look at Mr. Bush and see "this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do." He continued: "This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them."

The president's certitude - the idea that he can see into people's souls and that God tells him what is right, then W. tells us if he feels like it - is disturbing. It equates disagreeing with him to disagreeing with Him.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/opinion/17dowd.html?oref=login&hp

Maybe this WILL make it into the political conversation.
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KittyWampus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 09:24 PM
Response to Original message
56. Kick
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
57. The problem is you cannot deal with *.
Factions (not moderate) of the Nazi party had similar problems when those who may have wanted a different direction found out what would happen when they crossed Hitler and Goebbels. We unfortunately are at a time in history where the Nazi and Republican party make a good comparison. Substitute Bush and Rove.

McCain, Arnold, Gulianni and others need to wake up fast or they will find themselves in the same prison. They will go before they cart off the Democrats.
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yodermon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Oct-16-04 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
58. Good God.
...Lantos went on to describe for the president how the Swedish Army might be an ideal candidate to anchor a small peacekeeping force on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Sweden has a well-trained force of about 25,000. The president looked at him appraisingly, several people in the room recall.

''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''

Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ''Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They're the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.'' Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.

Bush held to his view. ''No, no, it's Sweden that has no army.''

The room went silent, until someone changed the subject.

A few weeks later, members of Congress and their spouses gathered with administration officials and other dignitaries for the White House Christmas party. The president saw Lantos and grabbed him by the shoulder. ''You were right,'' he said, with bonhomie. ''Sweden does have an army.''
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Rose Siding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:19 AM
Response to Original message
59. kick
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 09:57 AM
Response to Original message
61. His incompetence in everything he has done
Is truely frightening. He has never made a positive contribution to any endeavor from what I can see.

And now he's the leader of the free world and on a mission from God.

Holy Shit. Please wake me and tell me iI'm dreaming.
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Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:20 AM
Response to Original message
65. This article is some scary shite. I'm emailing it around, the whole text,
from the "printer friendly" format.

This is a good one to send to your friends who vote shrubya because they have money but are liberal on social issues and uneasy about the unholy marriage of rich people with Bible thumpers. I know some like this.
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ze_emobile Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 11:22 AM
Response to Original message
66. "We're an empire now"
The most devastating passage is on section 7 as Suskind quotes a senior Bush advisor:

"We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."

That looks scary on the surface but I would just tell this guy to enjoy it while it lasts which by my count will be two weeks and two days.


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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
68. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 01:25 PM
Response to Original message
69. kick
I just hope Kerry makes hay with this- there are so many good quotes here to use, this SHOULD be made into a commercial.
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Aviation Pro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
70. Why would anyone in....
...there right minds vote for this lunatic?
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Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
71. Megalomania.....
Megalomania as defined by Websters Dictionary: a mental disorder characterized by delusions of grandeur, power, etc.

Now, lets look at the exerpt from the article again.

Excerpt:

"In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''"

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bloom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 04:02 PM
Response to Original message
75. Certifiable Rightousness....
"Mr. President, your instincts aren't good enough!" - Biden
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Paxdora Donating Member (223 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #75
82. kick!
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Borgnine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:12 PM
Response to Original message
81. See the picture in my signature.
Somebody hold me. I suddenly feel very, very cold.
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mumon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
83. Kick!
This is great.
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phlyphisher Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:04 PM
Response to Original message
87. Respect My Authority!
Don't you just love how Shrub won't debate policy even with his fellow repugs?

Do you have to kiss the ring upon entering the Oval Office now? Ugh! He cannot accept even the criticism of his own team -- even Cheney gave up talking at the meetings. *rolleyes*
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PerfectSage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Oct-17-04 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
89. My "instincts" say shrub is a delusional dumbshit
Would Nietzsche say that shrub has an ignorant will to power or would he say shrub has a powerful will to ignorance?

But Billington said he ''looked to God'' and said what was in his heart. ''The United States is the greatest country in the world,'' he told the rally. ''President Bush is the greatest president I have ever known. I love my president. I love my country. And more important, I love Jesus Christ and I do love big brother Bush. I do love big brother Bush''.



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moggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Oct-18-04 09:10 AM
Response to Original message
97. "The way he points"
Quote:

You see, you're outnumbered 2 to 1 by folks in the big, wide
middle of America, busy working people who don't read The New York Times
or Washington Post or The L.A. Times. And you know what they like? They
like the way he walks and the way he points, the way he exudes
confidence.

Sheesh. So the desirable qualifications for president are similar to those for male model? That's why the chimp fared so badly in the debates: not enough opportunity for walking and pointing!

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