Did I Go Too Far?

[iamjoy]

My husband e-mailed this letter from one of George W. Bush's Harvard professor to one of his (Republican) friends and copied me. Basically, this professor says Dubya was a slacker, who made excuses, lacked compassion, etc.
(http://s88172659.onlinehome.us/bushprofessor.htm)

So, I did "Reply to All" that this was a smear just like the rumors that in the early 1970s Dubya got an underage girl pregnant and paid for the then illegal abortion. I went on to say how the real concern about George W. Bush's character was that he liked to avoid discussing everything that happened before he was "born again" like it didn't matter, but did not extend the same courtesy to Karla Faye Tucker and seemed to have no doubts or regrets about executing her even when Christian leaders asked him to commute her sentence. Hardly actions I would expect from a Christian or "compassionate conservative"

My husband's friend, who goes to Church regularly responded this way:
"Please don't try to bring theology into politics. You will only serve to offend people rather than enforce your political views. If you would like to discuss the theology of modern Christianity I am more than willing to discuss that topic with you and what being "saved" means, but it has no place as rationalisation or decrial of political views. There are many things that make up a persons character and religious belief is just one portion of it. Is it worth risking an offense of belief for political means? In my opinion it is not."

My husband says I should tell the friend that I am pointing out the hypocrisy of those who wear their religion on their sleeves. I am wondering if I shouldn't just say it wasn't my intent to offend him & does he wants an explanation in which case I would tell him that I am not the one bringing theology into politics, they are. I would personally be very glad if religion stayed out of politics, but since Dubya uses his religion to justify his political views, why isn't it appropriate?

What do you all think? And what do you think of the larger issue?

[Longhorn]

1. You're not the one bringing theology into polictics, Bush is.

It's fair game if he campaigns on it, and he does.

[roseBudd]

2. You are not going to get him to vote for Kerry, move on n/t

[cheshire]

3. I think * brought it into the arena not you and the friend is trying to

make you wrong for his own agenda. You did nothing wrong but * did.

[liberalmuse]

4. Religion is all about politics.

This guy is fooling himself, because it is clear that if it weren't for religion and those who vote based on their religion, W would have never made it into the White House.

[Tansy_Gold]

9. Organized religion -- as opposed to personal spirituality -- is a

means of political (from "poloi," Grk for "people") control. I see no difference. And boosh has made religion very much a part of his presidency and his campaign. I'm sure that if you AGREED with these people, they would have no problem discussing religion as politics or vice-versa. It's only when you disagree that they insist on the separation.

Dr. Yoshi Tsurumi's letter -- I'm assuming he's the Harvard prof whose letter was sent around -- is probably far more reliable a source than the general urban legends of boosh paying for a girl friend's abortion.

For anyone who missed it, http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2004/09/16/tsurumi/

<snip>
The dunce
His former Harvard Business School professor recalls George W. Bush not just as a terrible student but as spoiled, loutish and a pathological liar.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Mary Jacoby

Sept. 16, 2004 | For 25 years, Yoshi Tsurumi, one of George W. Bush's professors at Harvard Business School, was content with his green-card status as a permanent legal resident of the United States. But Bush's ascension to the presidency in 2001 prompted the Japanese native to secure his American citizenship. The reason: to be able to speak out with the full authority of citizenship about why he believes Bush lacks the character and intellect to lead the world's oldest and most powerful democracy.
"I don't remember all the students in detail unless I'm prompted by something," Tsurumi said in a telephone interview Wednesday. "But I always remember two types of students. One is the very excellent student, the type as a professor you feel honored to be working with. Someone with strong social values, compassion and intellect -- the very rare person you never forget. And then you remember students like George Bush, those who are totally the opposite."

. . . .

"He showed pathological lying habits and was in denial when challenged on his prejudices and biases. He would even deny saying something he just said 30 seconds ago. He was famous for that. Students jumped on him; I challenged him." When asked to explain a particular comment, said Tsurumi, Bush would respond, "Oh, I never said that." A White House spokeswoman did not return a phone call seeking comment.

<end snip>

[BootinUp]

5. what do I think?

probably a waste of time based on his total avoidance of the issue. You're absolutely right about who is bringing theology into politics. The other side uses it to justify positions they favor but are not interested in discussing the conflicts.

[Bonhomme Richard]

6. Whats the point? Shrub isn't a Christian, he only plays one..............

on TV.

[cheshire]

10. LOL I see a new series, Hillbilly wannabe Christian Morans. 1 season flop.

[intheflow]

14. His own denomination is against

his illegal occupation of Iraq: United Methodist ChurchGeneral Board of Global Ministries

and

his anti-choice stance: United Methodist Church Social Principle on Abortion

among others which can be found by clicking the "Our Faith In Action" at http://www.umc.org/interior.asp?mid=158.

[sandnsea]

7. Send him this article

And simply say "Too late."

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/17/magazine/17BUSH.html?oref=login&oref=login

[MatrixEscape]

8. Isn't that a scream?

If your husband's friend applied his point-of-view to Bush, then the hypocrisy would be obvious.

Bush sets the stage for discourse, and people of faith then have the audacity to knock other's off of it when they speak up or address the point? Who is being offensive and even ignorant in this case? Only ignorance of the platform in quesiton can bring someone to the conclusion that is offensive to counter and comment on the facts.

One of the reasons so many people are more opposed to Bush than they have to be is that he speaks to, and acts on behalf of, a base of the Religious Right; code words and all.

The religious issues are now paramount to me. It is not about religion itself, but about a well-defined political agenda presented by the Religious Right. One that is fully supported by the President and a potential threat to Democracy on every level.

I refer you to the Yurica Report for a primer on the subject:
http://www.yuricareport.com/

[iamjoy]

11. But I Am Not A Christian

Nor do I want to be. Am I possibly insulting his faith? And what does it mean to be saved? Of course, these questions make it not really a campaign issue....

[acmavm]

12. The larger issue? You mean mixing politics with religion I assume?

If so, I hate the whole concept. Government is secular, or rather it was certainly intended to be by the Founding Fathers. They knew first hand the dangers of mixing politics and religion. It's like drinking and driving, or guns and booze (or whatever).

That's what really makes me crazy about the Catholic bishops trying to influence this election. Why should they doom me, my children, grandchildren to a life of persecution and poverty because they have failed in their 'mission' of making abortion illegal? That's their frigging failure, it does not justify the attempt to saddle the American people with an administration that has no other agenda than to make this into a country who's main purpose is to advance the corporate agenda just because the current fake pResident is anti-abortion.

While they say that abortion is murder, you don't see them worrying overmuch about the quality of life after birth. They don't give a damn if kids are born into squalor, if they have to suffer from the consequenses of serious birth defects, if they end up homeless and uneducated, just so long as they end up on this earth. For myself, I would never have considered abortion, and at one point in my life I had extremely good reason to. But that's not just me. But I have a very hard time listening to the message that abortion is wrong in all cases, especially when it's coming from a bunch of people who circled the wagons and protected the church for decades while priests were victimizing children and they knew about it and hid it.

Go to any rectory or church in this country. They have quite the decent life. I (although at the time was not hurting myself) was a member of a parish that had a lot of poor people in it. And I do mean poor, many of them immigrants from Mexico and Latvia, etc. Due to the fact that the pastor was a nutcase and something bad was always going on, I made more than one trip to the rectory. One night I noticed crystal glasses and beautiful china and sterling silverware on the dinner table set for the pastor and his minion, while I had just come from outside and there was a homeless guy with his entire life on his back, skinny, dirty, and no doubt hungry. That was the big epiphany for me. That was when it smacked me in the face that the preaching you heard on Sunday was just that, preaching. There was no sincerity there. These guys were sheltered and taken care of, rather nicely I might add. But their message was that we of the congregation should bravely bear our sufferings and dedicate them to the Lord. And don't forget to put your donations in the basket on Sunday. Poverty is for the little guy, the peasants, and the plebians. The Vatican has one of the greatest art collections on earth. And they are huge owner's of real estate in this country, although they've seen their holdings fall considerably because they got caught aiding and abetting child molesters.

If they want to worry about eternal salvation, fine. If they want to promote a government who's interest is weakening our rights, hit them anyway you can. I know that I've been picking on the Catholic Church here folks, but that is because that is what I know. I was baptized
Catholic. But I am what you refer to as a 'lapsed' Catholic. Saw too much crap growing up and when I was younger to be anything else. George Carlin said that religion is the most toxic substance on earth once. I tend to agree.

[Not Me]

13. Not to pry, but I hope this 'friend' has some other redeeming qualities

If he is open enough to engage in a real, open discussion, then have at it. You shouldn't have to mask your feelings with your friends.