Is there really a Three Party System - Libs, Conservs, and Corporatists?

[symbolman]

I'm wondering if we can reframe the debate about the Party systems by claiming that there are THREE Parties - Progressives, Conservatives, and Radical Corporatists?

Maybe this way we can get the Conservatives to abandon the Radical Corporatists, namely Bush Co, and thereby get on Common ground with "Real" Republicans for the good of our Nation?

In other words DON'T VOTE for Bush - He's NOT a Republican - TRUE Conservatives believe in pretty much the same thing we are pushing for - responsible fiscal spending, no war without reason, and the recognition that the "Tooth to Tail" (nepotism - no bid contracts that HURT our troops) reconstruction of the military is basically traitorous to our citizens.

Just asking, thoughts?

[ClassWarrior]

1. Roughly, yes. I'd say the specifics of the argument need refining, but...

...I think it's pretty close. Have you read "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank? It speaks to this idea.

24.

[jody]

2. The Corporate Party funds both Dem and Rep candidates and

contributes to both sides of the debate/argument on divisive issues to keep the population polarized on such topics as Right to Keep and Bear Arms, abortion, education, and religion.

Create and spread chaos to divide and conquer. Supposedly, Skull and Bones calls that "constructive chaos"

[Demit]

3. I just met two people wearing "Republicans for Kerry/Edwards" buttons

They're volunteering at the Town Hall Meeting event today in the Philadelphia suburbs, where Edwards will be speaking. I met them last night at the volunteers' meeting. So the sentiment exists...

[symbolman]

4. Man,

we need to get more of those buttons into people's hands - that would be a lot of help..

and I'm aware of people like Daschele's wife, sucking up the payoff to the airlines after 911, etc.. made me sick, used to trust him a lot more..

still, as an attack on Bush I think it would be promising.. it IS all about appearances, and he's obviously handing out bucks right and left to them Corps..

[Cats Against Frist]

5. The conservatives and corporatists are one and the same

The Christians believe that God smiles down on the rich, now. Did you not get the memo? Check out Raytheon -- militant Christian, multi-billion dollar weapons company. Bombs for Jesus. Don't even think the religious right can be persuaded with reason. They honestly believe the shrub was chosen by God to lead the world. They're lap dogs for their corporatist masters, and nothing you say will be able to convince them otherwise. Especially since the original manipulators are getting old, and they've been replaced by Christian/Corporatist hybrids.

It's all intertwined: The Christians, the Military-Industrial Complex and even the "free marketers" (which are really corpo-fascists), into one big amalgam of shit. The religious right might leave the GOP, but only because the GOP isn't "Leviticus" enough for them. They don't care about the poor or materialism, and will not align with a leftist, populist anti-rich message.

[ClassWarrior]

6. I think there's a distinction.

The rich, white-collar, politically moderate corporatists and the low-income, blue-collar, politically conservative moralists. It's all part of a spectrum, but the former tend to manipulate the latter for their own economic gain. Again, read "What's the Matter with Kansas."

24.

[DaveSZ]

7. On economic issues the range between Bush and Kerry is narrow

[ClassWarrior]

8. That's because the RW has effectively taken the economic off the table...

...in our national debate. Money doesn't matter, they say, just values and morals. Again, read "What's the Matter with Kansas." I hate to be a broken record, but it opened my eyes.

24.

[secular_warrior]

10. I agree completely

There are too many people on the left like Frank who still believe we are one day going to convert the poor, white Christian folk who have been "duped" by the Republicans. It all stems from the idea that hatred among the groups is an effect of corporatism. That theory is completely wrong. Hatred is the cause for corporatism, and all other right wing ideology, like racism, nationalism, fundamentalism, etc. These low income white people are defending the American White Christian hegemony along with their corporate/military industral complex breathren. They don't mind sacraficing their economic well being or even their lives for the cause. They are haters, just like all other right wingers. Hatred is the cause and the end and cannot be separated out whereby a populist/leftist economic argument can be pitched to them. If it doesn't involve fighting for the American White Christian hegemony of the world -- the right's true goal-- it doesn't matter.

[ClassWarrior]

11. Wow. That's a rather hate-infused critique in itself.

I don't believe that the great mass of humans are haters, and yours is a pretty dismal worldview from which to begin.

24.

[secular_warrior]

12. I do not think the great mass of humans are haters

I just don't subscribe to the notion that the poor conservative Christian fundamentalists are going to come back to us on economic issues. I see the the conservative worldview as a complete entity --not something where the social argument can be separated from the economic -- it is one and the same and stems completely from hatred.

The right wingers are the minority - not the majority. They know their numbers have shrunk over the past generation and they will do anything to protect the American WASP hegemony. In the past, the poor Christian fundamentalists may have aligned with the Democrats on populists issues - but only because they saw the Republicans as the party of Lincoln that wanted the "Jewish bankers" and the "negroes" to rule over them. The white Christian fundamentalist goal was the same as it is now - they just believed the Democrats were serving those goals. When the Dems embraced civil rights, these voters aligned with the anti-civil rights Republicans.

[el_gato]

13. I think secular_warrior is right on this one, hate is thier identity

Without someone to hate they would be lost.
But that does not mean that thier is not a de facto corporatist party.
The corporatists are those who understand the machiavellian nature of the agenda. They use whatever arguements are available but always have the real agenda of greed and corporate fascism as thier goal.

[ClassWarrior]

14. I never said that "poor conservative Christian fundamentalists...

...are going to come back to us on economic issues." We're talking about political labels here, which is always an inexact science. I said that the corporatists are able to manipulate people who value morality by appealing to their values and eliminating the economic factors.

No, I don't ever delude myself that we'll ever win back the hardcores. But that doesn't mean that the corporatists and their less-hardcore supporters are coming from the same place. In fact, we know they're coming from two different places.

24.

[sadiesworld]

15. Absolutely we can win some of these people back.

Even on RW sites you find that most are as unhappy with trade/outsourcing policies, healthcare costs, etc., as we are.

NAFTA and the WTO did far more long term damage among paleos and moderates than Lewinsky did.

In the final analysis, we have a hell of a lot in commom with middle and lower class pugs. As Molly Ivins says: "It's about the haves and the havenots and anybody who tells you otherwise is lying for money" (I think I may have badly mangled this quote).


caveat: The rabid fundies are unreachable.

[secular_warrior]

16. I think that's where I disagree with the conventional wisdom of the left

Because I do think they're coming from the same place.

IMO, the old liberal argument that "Big Corporation controls poor white people" is very similar to the conservative argument that "Big Government controls poor minorities."

My belief is that poor and rich liberals share mostly the same goals and the same worldview, just as poor and rich conservatives do. Sure there are always engineers of the plan at the top, but I believe that in each case the supposedly "duped" poor folk know what they are voting for.

Agree, there are many poor white voters we can get - just ones that are not overly conservative/fundamentalist.

IMO, the Repubs have moved away from being simply a corporatist party to a Christiano-fascist neoconservative party whose (rather overt) goal is empire and world domination.

[demokatgurrl]

9. Moderates (Dems), Neocons (Repubs) and conservatives-

who don't really fit in anywhere (TRUE conservatives not radicals like Bushco). And alas, not many liberals any more. Our party is not liberal. And I do NOT consider that a good thing.