Only 1 in 8 Dems described Clark as "liberal"

[Hoppin_Mad]

"At least two-thirds of Democrats said both Dean and Clark are sincere, strong leaders who share their values.

One difference: About a third of Democrats described Dean as a liberal; only one in eight described Clark that way. "

Why IS that ?

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/12/elec04.poll.prez/

[TakebackAmerica]

1. This is great!

Voters will vote for Clark thinking he is moderate , when actually he is more liberal than Dean.

Clark is the perfect trojan horse. Everybody thinks he's a moderate general when actualy he is a liberal dove.

[WhoCountsTheVotes]

3. he may be liberal but he's not a dove

how is he a dove?

[JVS]

7. That door could swing either way

Clark is a big question mark.
He is Liberal by his policy statements, but those are just words on paper. Time would tell whether it is the moderate swing voters getting tricked or the Liberal Primary voters. It is not a risk that I am willing to take.

[Lauren2882]

10. Exactly

The Republicans must hate him for that reason. They'd feel they same way we did when people voted for Bush thinking he was a moderate, and he turned out to be worse than Reagan!

I guess I should clarify that not all Republicans will hate him -- many of the moderate ones will vote for him.

The one thing I don't agree with about your post though, is that I don't think I'd exactly call Clark a dove. He fights when it's necessary to fight.

[mouse7]

18. He's not a liberal either

He's not a centrist. Clark is a moderate.

Wellstone was a liberal.

[Bill of Rights]

61. I am a liberal

and I am voting for a man who embraces "liberal democracy."

[Printer70]

33. How do you know he's liberal?

1. He supported the Iraq war
2. He wants more tax cuts irresponsibly
3. He has no serious plan to offer health care to Americans

[Mattforclark]

46. Hahahahah

"1. He supported the Iraq war"

Ah, still going on with that.

"2. He wants more tax cuts irresponsibly"

He wants to bring those making over $200,000 back to the Clinton level. Then for tax reform, he wants to raise taxes on those making over $1,000,000 by another 5%, and he wants to lower them for poorer people in need. Making the tax system more progressive is hardly "tax cut irresponsibilty."

"3. He has no serious plan to offer health care to Americans"

http://www.clark04.com/issues

[Printer70]

47. HaHaHaHa...No

1. He supported the war. Had a conversation with political consultants. Then, came out half-sedated with a glazed look on his face and claimed to oppose the war.

2. No matter how you spin it, he wants to cut taxes from where they were in the late 90's. More irresponsible tax cuts when we need to pay down the deficit and fund health care.

3. Clark can babble about health care. Dean actually did it.

--
Note: Clark wants tax cuts, balance the budget, and new social programs. Yeah, and I want a pony.

[Mattforclark]

51. hahahah

"1. He supported the war. Had a conversation with political consultants. Then, came out half-sedated with a glazed look on his face and claimed to oppose the war."

The record says otherwise. Go and look at what he said to the senate armed services committee, for just one of many possible examples.

"2. No matter how you spin it, he wants to cut taxes from where they were in the late 90's. More irresponsible tax cuts when we need to pay down the deficit and fund health care."

Starting from taxes in the Clinton era, Clark wants to raise them on the super rich and cut them for people who are actually in need. That's called redistribution of wealth, not tax cuts. And originally, you said "more tax cuts" which would seem to mean more tax cuts than what we have now, which is not the case. BTW, didn't you hear about that new tax cut that Dean announced he wanted to do a few days after Clark released his tax reform plan?

"3. Clark can babble about health care. Dean actually did it."

I take it you are backing off from your original statement that "He has no serious plan to offer health care to Americans?"

[QC]

53. So progressive taxation is now a republican position?

Wow! You really do learn something new here every day!

[mouse7]

56. 40% top tax bracket is NOT progressive

Putting the upper tax braket back to 80-90% for incomes over $200,000 a year like they were in the 1950's and 1960's... now THAT would be progressive.

[kovasb]

57. So "progressive" is an absolute term?

Let me get this straight. There is an actual number, that if achieved, will forvever qualify as progressive.

Clark's number may not be like the 60's , or certain countries in europe that get to sustain their uptopias largley because of trickle-down effects from the US.

But it is progressive for the united states of america of 2004, where the election in question is actually happening.

Should we actually be calling pro-democracy left wing radicals in iran and china ultra-conservatives?

Get over the fact that Clark has a proposal that is more traditionally liberal than the other candidates.

[Lauren2882]

2. Interesting poll.

It seems to fall in line with the way things are generally turning out, with the race evolving into a faceoff between Dean and Clark.

Funny thing is, I DO think Clark is a liberal, and in fact not much less liberal than Dean. One thing I don't understand is why only 33% of Dems think Dean's a liberal... Do 66% think he's moderate or conservative? I don't get it. Maybe it would make more sense if I saw how the question was worded.

[slinkerwink]

4. I noticed that also----it means that Clark is viewed as a republican

[Mattforclark]

9. lol

[bhunt70]

12. No it doesnt.

anything not liberal = republican?

Dean's not a liberal...

[mouse7]

20. Wellstone was a liberal

Lieberman is a centrist. Dean and Clark are moderates.

[QC]

15. Yeah, that must be it.

:eyes:

[hope42mro]

31. Dean more liberal? He's pro-NRA, pro- confederate flag n/t

[hope42mro]

35. What is a "Liberal" nowadays? isn't it conservative for "bad"?

[hope42mro]

37. Clark is GE electable: the mods/conservatives' alternate to Bush

[newyawker99]

59. Hi hope42mro!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[kayleybeth]

39. So 67% of people view DEAN as a republican?

Is that what you're saying?

[gulliver]

5. People don't know any better yet.

Dean's name recognition is a two-edged sword. A lot of the media attention that got Dean name recognition also miscast him as a liberal -- too liberal to be specific. Dean is actually a centrist IMO, and that is good news for him should he win the nomination.

Clark, OTOH, is a general, so people make assumptions about him. Once they actually watch him they will find he is actually very solidly liberal. That will help him in the primaries. Combine Clark's little known liberal soul and his gender gap with women (also a product of people jumping to conclusions, IMO) and I see a lot of upside for Clark.

[bhunt70]

13. good post.

[Mattforclark]

6. He is a liberal who appears to be moderate

And that, my friends, is double whammy in our favor.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

17. Yep. As opposed to a Conservative who's thought of as a Liberal.

n/t

[bhunt70]

8. I think its the uniform.

I think many people see a uniform and think conservative. A stereotype.

I think He and Dean are right about the same place. In fact I think if you look at Dean he is fiscally conservative and I would think Dean is actually more of a moderate rather than liberal as many people have painted him. Not that I think anything is wrong with that. I think according to what I gleen from Clarks views he has more liberal ideals.

[mmonk]

11. Perceptions

aren't always reality. I would venture to say because Clark is a retired general.

[ecstatic]

14. how is it possible to be liberal in the military?

Every person I know in the military has a right wing stance (and these guys are black!). I don't blame them for their views--I think its one of those situations where you're brainwashed into a certain way of thinking. Either that or you gradually conform to fit in with your shipmates/etc.

[oxymoron]

16. Damn, talk about sweeping generalizations.

Yeah, there are no liberals in the military. Amazing.

[ecstatic]

22. sorry. i was out of line...

I think the Army may be a lot more liberal than the Navy (the guys I'm referring to are in the Navy, as was I for a brief period of time). When you're young and new to politics, the chances of being molded into certain ideologies are quite high. Although I'm sure the Navy has its share of liberals. And no, I'm not being sarcastic! :-)

[Toot]

24. I somewhat agree with your post because..

when my sister told my mother and myself that she voted for Bush I, we were both shocked. Then we looked at each other and said, " Yeah, she is in the military and we know how they think." LOL, yeah I know we were terrible, but we did get her to vote for Gore in 2000, or so she says.

[oostevo]

32. I hate to use stereotypes, but

I hate to use stereotypes, but seeing as I live about 40 feet away from a navy base, I can say that you're somewhat right. I'm sure there are liberals in the military, and I applaud them for sticking to their beliefs, but I just haven't met any yet.

[ClintonTyree]

19. Clark...............

is the mystery man right now. There is nothing on which to base an opinion, he's a clean slate as far as being a Democrat goes. What spooks me is that so many people are jumping on his bandwagon not really knowing how this man will lead.
He's attempting to fly in beneath the radar to the nomination. Just because he says he's a Democrat and says the right words, doesn't mean that he's going to act that way if elected.
Look at the Chimp. He ran as a moderate and as soon as he stole the election he made a 90 degree turn to the right.
Something just doesn't feel right to me about Gen. Clark.

[ecstatic]

21. Amen. I voted for Zell Miller once upon a time

now all I can do is look at him with disgust. I never want to have that feeling of being duped again!

[isbister]

29. I agree

I really don't like his "flying in beneath the radar"... its.... fishy

[mmonk]

30. You could try

to listen to what he has to say or read his latest book. Beats listening to detractors from other campaigns or anti-military people.

[ClintonTyree]

43. That what I mean...............

those are just more words. There are no actions in his past that could enlighten me to which way he'd govern.
Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the good General, but I'm a little wary of placing the hopes of this country with a political neophyte.
I'm sure Wes is a fine man, and his supporters seem to have found something in which to believe so passionately in him, maybe I'm just old and cynical. I do have a tendency to over analyze.

[hope42mro]

44. Proff of leadership= Kosovo=subordination to stop genocide

[kovasb]

23. Media = reason dean more 'liberal' than clark

Almost every mention of dean had the word "liberal" or often "ultra-liberal" .
If i had lexis-nexis it would be fun to do a statistical analysis of words that get associated with dean.

Of course, that label has little to do with actual policy and a lot to do with standing up to W... And even so he only gets 1/3 people labelling him 'liberal''? Im not sure if he is supposed to be some sort of baseline or you are trying to say the collective consciousness has revealed that Clark is no true democrat.

I honestly want to know what policy positions qualify Dean as being more liberal. And i hear he is cooking up some tax cut proposal to counter clark, so something other than that please. (Actually i think between clark's proposals he actually ends up raising taxes on the rich more than dean, but please correct its thats wrong)

[QC]

25. Maybe Dean promoting himself as the rightful heir to Wellstone

has at least a teeny, tiny little bit to do with this.

You know, "the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party" and all that.

On edit: Sorry, meant to reply to original post.

[madrchsod]

27. shit i forgot -ultra-liberal!!

that has be really close to a commie....

[madrchsod]

26. i think Clark is a moderate

not a liberal...but i have no idea what a liberal is or what a moderate is . can one be a moderate liberal or maybe a liberal moderate? radical leftist or leftist radical? a moderate radical or a radical moderate?

[isbister]

28. Re: Why IS that?

Television

Dean is seen as a liberal because that is what the talking heads call him. In addition to that, many Americans probably feel that being against a war is what makes you a liberal.

Clark is seen as being so much less liberal because the great amount of play his past republican votes and support have received. The fact he was in the military probably ads to that as well.

[The Magistrate]

34. This Is Good News

The label is a useless one; it has long been so. The jest that "A liberal is a man who won't take his own side in a quarrel" is more than half a century old. Republican political success for the last several decades has depended on manipulating the disdain of the people for that label. That will be damned difficult to do against Gen. Clark, not because his views and policy proposals are anything other than progressive, but because the cry that a general is a liberal will not be taken seriously by the people. It will sound funny, like jumbo shrimp, and must come to strike people as shrill and foolish.

[Printer70]

36. Clark is not liberal; let's be honest...

...if we appoint him, it won't be a movement of the people, it'll be because of DLC manuevering and it will be a surrender of the party to win-at-any-cost centrists whose idea of leadership is shadowing the Right.

[gulliver]

40. I honestly think you are wrong about Clark.

Watch him give a speech or listen to him in a town hall. He is brilliant and sincerely concerned about the country. He can unite people in the party and in the country.

[Printer70]

49. How do we know what he'd do in office?

His issues read nicely but he's never held office and implemented any of them. All we know is that he's been enamored of Republicans much of his life. How do you know that we won't get surprised if he's elected? We don't. What if those Republian ideas start making "sense" again.

[Mattforclark]

55. watch

the movie on his website.

http://clark04.com/americanson/

Read a bit about what he did for the soldiers who served under him to improve their lives, how he saved an endangered turtle species on a base, etc. That is his record on domestic issues.

[hope42mro]

41. I'm not a person then I suppose...

"..it won't be movement of the people..."

Some Dean supporters (not all! I'm not stereotyping I promise) need to stop assuming the Dean campaign is the only grassroots campaign. I'm a volunteer in a local Clark campaign I find it very aggravating to read that I am not involved in a "movement of the people." I'm not a sheep for the DLC!! I picked this man to support over Dean, all by myself, it was my decision. I donate alot of my spare time to this volunteer driven campaign. So please stop saying it isn't a worthy movement. Just because we don't have Dean's money or amazing number of supporters doesn't mean we don't have the heart.

Oh, and...
Clark isn't looking to "Shadow the Right" he simply wants a better America for everyone, Democrats, Republicans, Independents, etc. Why is that so wrong! (whimper, wimper...)

[mmonk]

42. repealing their tax cuts on the top earners,

being for affirmative action, being a multi-lateralist, being for a plan to cover more Americans with health care coverage, reducing the pentagon budget, civil rights for for gay and lesbian people,... I'm still looking for the shadowing the right part, help me.

[Printer70]

50. I missed the part where clark said he'd cut...

the pentagon budget. Please post the link. Thanks.

[Mattforclark]

54. http://www.peace-action.org/2004/Clark.html

http://www.peace-action.org/2004/Clark.html question 11

[Printer70]

58. Poll-tested candidate

Thanks for the link but this is just ridiculous. I support cutting Pentagon budget, but not to weaken security. I support health care, but without further tax burden on Americans. I don't believe this guy- he'll say whatever you want to hear.

[Mattforclark]

60. well

"I support cutting Pentagon budget, but not to weaken security."

That means that he isn't going to cut infantry divisions, benefits to soldiers (like Bush) but only the pork that exists in the budget. If you think that cutting the defence budget is a poll tested position, go check out the poll results of some other democrats who wanted to do the same in the 80's.

"I support health care, but without further tax burden on Americans."

Nope, health care is paid for by increasing taxes for people making over 200,000 back to the Clinton level. You are right though, health care is an issue that is important to Americans, according to polls.

"I don't believe this guy- he'll say whatever you want to hear."

I am sorry if he agrees with you too much. Better vote for someone who disagrees with you more often, like Bush, I suppose. ;)

[kovasb]

45. Lets correct this shadowing myth

One theory is that clark is bush-lite. That the republicans are setting the discourse, and that democrats are just putting out watered down versions of the same thing.

Another theory is that dean is bush-left. That dean is defined by a reation to bush. Everything that bush is, dean has to be the opposite.

Now, the problem with this second model is that since Bush is inconsistent, the reaction must also be inconsistent.

And when someone like clark comes along and actually speaks the truth, which in some instances is not phrased to be maximally in antagonitistic to the letter of bush if not the spirit, he is rejected.

There are a lot of meta-points at stake in this debate, as is always with politics... but the strong self-rightous movement that thinks it has created its own identity its deceiving itself. You are not setting your own agenda, as is witnessed by the ceaseless mindless attacks on clark (witness the neverending clark supported the war threads), you are defined by hatred of bush down to the micro-level, regadrless of the context.

And that is why rove will succeed in painting you pessimistic and angry.

[Printer70]

48. Clark is an astrological reading

It's the Barnum effect- he's so vague, people read whatever they like into his "issues", untested ideas backed with zero political experience. He is the perfect poll-tested candidate. We don't know what to expect when he gets into office. All we know is that Republican ideas and Presidents made sense to him for much of his life.

[kovasb]

52. The problem is big picture/small picture

I have no trouble understanding him.

Here is a telling fact:
EVERY SINGLE thread that pulls a 'questionable' clark quote has the following pattern.

1) Quote is pulled. It says something like
a) The toppling of saddam reminds us of the toppling of past dictators, and gives us insipiration
b) Powel clearly laid out the US rational for war
c) i would have supported <conveniently delete version > resolution
d) (something about how he believed iraq had wmd, or was a threat, or so one)

2) Further examination of EVERY quote shows that the overall argument it was used in was AGAINST the war for various strategic reasons. and the reasons are the same, over and over and over again.

It seems to me there are two categories of people: Those who understand clark's position, and those that dont want to because they either have a candidate, or are prejudiced against the armed forces.

[TexasSissy]

38. Depends on definition of "liberal" as to whether good or bad.

I don't really care about the label. I'm looking for honesty, integrity, character, a vision for the future, and a commitment to a few key issues. I see that in Clark, and could also see it in a couple of the others.

[xultar]

62. DEAN IS NOT A LIBERAL- HE IS A MODERATE n/t