3+ years after 9/11 and we can't quickly mass produce vaccines?

[cheezus]

do we not have the capability, or is our government unwilling to do the arm twisting necessary to get the vaccine out there? Either way...

[Tennessee Gal]

1. We can't catch anthrax terrorists either!

Anybody heard anything on that one lately?

[aquart]

2. With all the nattering about bio-terror....

So if Saddam released bugs on us, we would have been sitting ducks?

[cthrumatrix]

20. that's a good point.... aren't we supposed to have "redoubled our efforts"

[Inland]

3. Where's the first line of defense for bioterror attack? England?

[enki23]

4. it seems we have *less* capacity for it

if 9-11 was an alarm, we're still hitting snooze. "september eleventh" is now an official republican campaign slogan, and excuse for republican failure.

[ladjf]

5. Why was the total production limited to just two companies?

[MissMarple]

8. The wonders of unrestrained capitalism.

I guess there wasn't a market for it. Or a big enough profit margin after all those law suits they complain about.

[northzax]

11. basically, cause there's no money in it

Two years ago, Wyeth, the third producer, quit the business, they had lost money on the vaccine for three straight yeras. Why would they continue?

making a live virus vaccine isn't that easy, and there is no profit in it (people are used to paying like, five bucks a shot?)

second, lvie virus vaccines are grown in chicken eggs (really) it is a laborious process not much improved in twenty years (again, no money in it) there is only one plany in the US capable of producing mass quantities of live virus flu vaccine. In about four or five years, technology will come on line (we hope) to provide for the production of live virus vaccines in cells. Why invesy in the old Egg technology when it will be obsolete in half a decade?

[MissMarple]

18. Last year I paid $20 per shot at the Visiting Nurses office.

But they would take $10 from low income people, and perhaps didn't charge some folks at all.

[Liberal Veteran]

6. It takes months to produce flu vaccine...

It is grown in chicken eggs and it takes a long time to produce.

By the time they actually got it to market, flu season would already have passed.

[cheezus]

9. thanks, you seem knowledgable

how are other vacciences (for say, small pox or other bioterror fears) produced? Is this the sort of problem that could be easily/quickly solved by throwing a bunch on money at it?

[IIgnoreNobody]

15. It's true that it is scientifically impossible to quickly mass produce

flu vaccine, but the Bush administration was warned about the vulneribility of the supply 2 years ago.

[Liberal Veteran]

17. This problem could be solved by diversifying production....

...to different companies. I would say that throwing a bunch of money at it couldn't hurt, such subsidizing production in the US at multiple facillities.

Either way, the ramp up and facillities to produce ANY vaccine would take time.

The flu vaccine is different every year and based on predictive models of which versions will be most prevalent. Then production starts which is fairly involved.

I think it would be in our best interest to have some redundancy built into the system, but I don't know how we solve an issue where final production is contaminated. It's not like we can just call another company and tell them to increase production that late in the process.

[Supersedeas]

7. blame Clinton: given a chance * will always take easy way out

[htuttle]

10. No, but...

...US companies can produce a new viagra-replacement in a matter of hours nowdays.

I think what we need to do is invent a flu vaccine that gives you an erection!

[northzax]

13. snarky, but completely different

live virus vaccines must be grown. sidenafil citrate is manufactured. It's a little like comparing farming to computer manufacture. Intel can produce a new chip in days, but we still can't make corn grow any faster.

[CAcyclist]

12. One Reason:Consolidation

this is an important talking point.Its NOT liability and NOT limited profitability that result in so few companies producing vaccine

As these 2003 statements show, vaccine production IS profitable and as I will provide a link to later on in this thread, the FDA does all the development work for producing the flu vaccine, so the private company only has mass-produce it.

Its actually the consolidation in the corporate pharmaceutical world (and proably the tax benefits that ensue) that reduce competition and reduce back - up options. Chiron just bought Powderject which is the company that actually makes Fluvirin in 2003 as shown below.

http://stg.syndnet.thomsonfn.com/InvestorRelations/PubNewsStory.aspx?partner=5425&storyId=87791

EMERYVILLE, Calif., May 19 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Chiron Corporation (Nasdaq: CHIR) today announced that it had launched a
recommended cash
tender offer for all outstanding shares of common stock of UK-based vaccines company PowderJect Pharmaceuticals plc.
he combination of Chiron and PowderJect will build on the two companies' existing positions as the fifth and sixth largest vaccines businesses in the
world,
respectively, and will represent a major advance in the vaccines business strategy of both companies. Chiron and PowderJect had combined total
annual
revenue of over $1.5 billion for the year to March 31, 2003.

The combined companies will be the world's second-largest provider of flu vaccines. PowderJect's product, Fluvirin(R), is a leading flu vaccine in
the United
Kingdom and is one of only two available injectable flu vaccines in the United States. PowderJect's strong position in the United States is
complemented by
Chiron's prominent position in Europe. With its three brands -- Agrippal(R) S1, Begrivac(TM) and Fluad(R) -- Chiron is currently the
second-largest
producer of flu vaccines outside of the United States. As governmental and supranational programs and policy increase public awareness of flu and
advocate
increased immunization, the combined companies' flu vaccines sales should continue to grow.<snip>
The combination of Chiron and PowderJect will provide increased manufacturing capability. PowderJect's FDA-approved manufacturing facility at
Liverpool
in the United Kingdom is one of the largest flu vaccines manufacturing facilities in Europe. This, together with PowderJect's facility in Sweden, will
complement Chiron's existing manufacturing operations.

[cheezus]

14. seems to me that this is a public health emergency

and as such the federal government should be able to mandate that X amount be produced for $Y or the national guard takes your factory by force and we put our own people in there to get this vaccine made.

[CAcyclist]

16. FDA provides the vaccine to the manufacturer

No one can complain that development costs are so high when these private companies don't even pay the costs - we, the public, do.

http://www.fda.gov/ola/2002/childhoodvaccines0612.html

June 12, 2002



Every year FDA scientists help to provide to manufacturers new strains for the yearly influenza vaccine as well as biological
standards for assessing the vaccine's potency. Ongoing FDA research on influenza is also designed to prepare for the possibility of
another global influenza pandemic. These efforts by FDA reduce the need for duplicative efforts by manufacturers and shorten the time
frames required for vaccine production every year.

[CAcyclist]

19. Chiron was counting on profits from vaccines to fund research in other

areas:

http://insidebayarea.com/businessnews/ci_2424311

Article Last Updated: 10/07/2004 09:53:47


Vaccine debacle cloudsthe future of Chiron
By Marni Leff Kottle, Bloomberg News



Chiron Corp. Chief Executive Howard Pien's strategy of using vaccine revenue to fund other research faltered when the company said it wouldn't sell any influenza vaccine to the U.S. for the 2004-2005 season, analysts said.

<snip>

Fluvirin brought in 17 percent of the company's product sales last year. Chiron built itself into the fourth biggest U.S. biotechnology company by selling vaccines, blood tests and drugs. The company depends on vaccine revenue to help pay for developing new drugs,
said A.G. Edwards & Sons analyst Alexander Hittle.

"There's nothing Wall Street loves more than a good drug," said Hittle. "Investors were counting on Chiron's vaccine unit to replenish their investment in their biopharmaceutical business."