What is the deal with Moore? Will he help Clark? Do we want his help?

[ludwigb]

Frankly, I despise him. I cannot forgive him for his ill-considered support for Nader. Living in Germany, where Moore's books have been bestsellers since the Iraq War, it turns my stomach to see a Bush enabler amassing fame and fortune via Bush-hatred and juvenile anti-Americanism. The most bitter pill of the Bush presidency is helplessly watching a rising tide of childish Anti-Americanism become legitimized and successfully marketed throughout mainstream Europe. As the poster boy for these developments, Moore's face enrages me every time I see it through those glass windows.

From his intellectual dishonesty to his sweeping generalizations to his loud, foolish, and often bullying outbursts, I see him as the epitome of everything that is wrong with the left--a shining example of a diseased part of American culture seeping into the American Left and undermining moral scrutiny and intellectual honesty from within. Finally, he is a convenient example for the media to smear leftists and war opponents as petty and narcissistic.

HOWEVER, I'm glad he has come to his senses about the differences between Republicans and Democrats and is throwing his support behind an electable candidate like Clark. He seems to have grasped certain realities of electoral politics and he could be extremely useful in a campaign against Bush--getting out college students and left iconoclasts. He's not my type of humorist but can often be witty and insightful. And he certainly means well.

I'm torn, because I want to like him for the good causes he supports, but I fear he may betray the Democratic Party again in the future with enormous personal gain---not because he is evil, but because he is a fool.

(Edited for spelling)

[el_gato]

1. Your post is full of unsubtantiated insults and smear

perhaps if you want to post something more serious I will
take your post seriously

[ludwigb]

3. Well,

yes I dislike Moore personally and that's probably irrational. My insults are perhaps unnecessary, but I would argue emotional associations shouldn't be off the table for a topic like this.

Look, Moore's past disloyalty to the party is a serious matter. How can you trust a guy like this? That's the real question.

[muchacho]

11. laughable

>>Look, Moore's past disloyalty to the party is a serious matter. How can you trust a guy like this? That's the real question.

This is laughable. Moore consistently says he doesn't worship at the "Church of the Left" and discussing his "past disloyalty to the party" smacks of Sopranos style allegiance and retribution.

Bullshit. If the Dems chase money or shift to the Right then they are to be accountable and, yes, even abandoned for a party that better represents a person's interest.

I believe Moore represents the majority of Dems that feels the party has betrayed THEM.

[jonnyblitz]

2. i was wondering how all of Clarks DLC type supporters would

take Moore's endorsement since they despise anybody who appears remotely left wing.

[Renew Deal]

4. What makes you think that people...

"despise anybody who appears remotely left wing?"

[bicentennial_baby]

5. As an unrepentant Nader voting Clark supporter

I welcome Moore's support of my candidate. He knows a good thing when he sees it.

[Mattforclark]

7. I couldn't vote in 2000

but I encouraged my parents to vote for Nader (in TX - NOT a swing state). They ended up voting for Gore though.

I guess I despise anybody who appears remotely left wing.

[Hep]

6. He brings votes, though

Despite everything you said about him, which IMO is true.

[lib 4 all]

8. Moore is a Green and despises both Republicans and Democrats

He organized "Rage Against the DNC" in 2000 over the trending to the right by the Democratic party.

He now sees an opportunity to exploit this even further with General Clark to the Green party's advantage.

(edit note: changed "of" to "by" for clarification)

[Skwmom]

10. Well if that's the case Moore will have a lot more

company if it comes down to a battle of the dishonest politicians in the general election.

[no name no slogan]

26. Moore is NOT a Green

Moore has said, in the past, that he supports a two-pronged approach: working within the Democratic Party to bring it back towards its natural constituency on the left, and also supporting third parties (Green, Progressive, New, Labor, etc.) to enable greater democracy in this nation.

And what is so wrong with that? Are Democrats and Republicans so damned afraid of other parties that they'll do ANYTHING to shut them out?

Remember the 2000 debates? Nader was deliberately excluded from them-- because he was talking about the issues the other two ignored. Buchanan was also excluded, for the same reason.

Why are so many so-called "Democrats" so afraid of democracy? Are they really that insecure that they're terrified of some fringe candidate on their left, saying the things that they're to chicken to talk about?

:shrug:

[windansea]

9. anyone who endorses Clark

or says anything good about him

is
an asshole
corporate media whore
DLC wannabe
a Clintonite
part of the MIC
PNAC

or........................pretty smart!!

[Don Claybrook]

12. Not true

Michael Moore is a good endorsement. I never have listened to all the hateful idiocy about him being a traitor to the Democratic Party, etc. He's true to his progressive, liberal values, not to any party. Moore is a true activist and he's done some really good work in support of those previously mentioned progressive values.

It's a good endorsement. Clark people should be happy with it, and others shouldn't begrudge Clark the boost.

It was very surprising when Moore started supporting Clark, but life is strange.

[windansea]

14. I was kidding

of course its a good endorsement

[Don Claybrook]

19. I knew you were kidding

I was disputing your implied assertion that other candidates' supporters were all sour grapes about Clark and would therefore attack anyone who endorsed him.

[windansea]

31. check any Clark endorsment thread

including this one...no matter who it is they are smeared

but thanks for sticking up for this one!

[lib 4 all]

17. Moore was instrumental in turning out support to Greens, away from Dems

And he is trying to outdo himself this time by pushing Clark, thereby setting up two Republicans in the election. This will make the Green party the only alternative. Remember, the Greens who handed Bush the election thought Gore was too Republican!

Imagine what they'll say about General Clark!
Folks, we need the base with us this time or we are sure to lose.
This is no time to alienate the left with more DLC "centrism" and military commanders.

[Don Claybrook]

22. Hey, I'm as much against the DLC as anyone

But Moore is beholden to no one, he has solid credentials, and he can back anyone he wants to back. I know you hate Clark. I have military-related problems with him too. But that doesn't mean I can't like Mike Moore and support a different candidate. The world I live in is a little more nuanced than this black-and-white/for us or against us mentality, and I refuse to go binary just because it's election season.

[lib 4 all]

24. I do not hate Clark, and I do not have issues with the military

I am pretty moderate on the military, in fact.
I just do not believe we should turn our party in the direction of nominating Generals. It is not the right direction for the party, it is not the right direction for the country, and lord knows its not the right direction for the world.

"Supporting the troops" does not mean electing a General!
I am just very disheartened by all of these Democrats going ga-ga over General Clark's shiny metals.

[Don Claybrook]

25. Well, I'm pretty damned radical left when it comes to the military

ergo the aforementioned problems with Clark's candidacy.

But I just insist on Michael Moore being able to endorse whoever he wants to endorse, short of Bush, and still thinking he's a force for good in American Politics.

[windansea]

34. our first prez was a general

as were 11 others I think...and it's insulting to call dems who support Clark "ga ga over shiny medals"

He's a Rhodes scholar, speaks 4 languages, is more liberal than Dean, actually has a DETAILED tax plan, and because of his broad appeal is the best bet to dethrone chimpy.

[Lefta Dissenter]

37. Thanks for THINKING, Don! :)

Despite the fact that you're backing the wrong guy :), you represent your candidate very well. I'm sure he appreciates having supporters like you.

[LTR]

30. I'm sure he's ABB

And Clark is the best bet to beat Bush.

[meow mix]

13. free media coverage

ill take it =)

[maxanne]

15. How has MM

betrayed the Democratic Party - when he isn't a member?

Yikes. I get awfully tired of the blame Nader camp. Blame all the asshats who sat home on election day and didn't vote. Blame Gore for a shitty campaign. There's a lot of blame to be parceled, and it shouldn't fall on the Greens.

I heard MM speak in September 2003, at Rolling Thunder in Manchester,NH. He was very candid about his support for Clark, but he urged everyone to get behind a candidate and start working to beat Bush. His message was very hopeful.

I can't believe Clark supporters are whining about MM's support. I'd be a lot happier to have Michael Moore in my camp than Madonna. :eyes:
We'll all know the election is sewn up when Britney Spears declares her support for the General.

[SeveneightyWhoa]

18. I stopped gleefully anticipating Spears' endorsement..

..when she claimed that we should all trust our great president Bush! If any celeb should stay quiet, it'd be her.

[maxanne]

20. I figured

she could make the transition from Bush to Clark pretty easily - so many others have.

[bobthedrummer]

23. LOL!

I concur.

[ludwigb]

27. I am especially annoyed

by the audio going around DU where Moore mocks those who distrust Clark because of his Republican past. Who is he to tell us what to do and who to back? Who is he to lecture us on why people hate the Left?

And as for being a traitor--yes, Michael Moore was a traitor to the progressive movement. Not because he is evil, but because he was a fool.

[maxanne]

32. you are certainly

entitled to your opinion, ludwigb. I'm sorry that you don't seem to understand that MM is entitled to his opinion too.

[Lefta Dissenter]

39. As I recall,

former vice president Gore was telling ALL of us what to do and who to back. Did you resent that, too?

[PATRICK]

16. what we don't want

Are people like the Greens angrily joining the media conspiracy again as dupes for the GOP. Or for any other disappointed voters to sulk and actually contribute to anti-Dem spin- like utter fools sconsidering what's at stake. Nader has to have Kucinich although Dean is a grudging alternative perhaps if he really does mess with the DLC.

Hello, what about the good of the people while we are waiting for our personally chosen perfection to triumph?

So far the people's choice for president has not yet been Bush, let's not lose the rest of our soul by helping him out.

[Monte Carlo]

21. Moore is the man who first sparked my interest in politics...

... and I find it disturbing when DUers and other Democrats hound him for daring to participate in the political process.

Of course we want his help. For one, regardless of Moore, the Democrats are in no position to turn away willing allies. Second, Moore has shown that he can deliever a piercing message. His writing is accessible to the non-political types, and he has the ear of the nation. Do not cast him aside so easily.

[Red_Storm]

28. You're right..........

Whether some people want to admit it or not, Moore has become influential and does have an audience, a sizeable one at that.......I don't understand the Clark supporters who are rejecting his endorsement.....

[robbedvoter]

29. "We won't even ask them to repent" Clark said of GOP-ers he invited to

support him. If i can vote side by side with GOP-ers, I certainly welcome Michael Moore - what's this BS?
We are not mayflower democrats like some candidates. We welcome support from everywhere.
I was fuming at Michael Moore. Started forgiving him at Oscar time.
And now, I velieve in redemption. Senator Byrd did it, why can't Moore?

[John_H]

33. Looks like the dean campaign had these arguments ready to go

I don't recognize Ludwig, so I'll take him at his word that he's a Clark supporter. But Ludwig, you may be interested in knowing that yours are the same arguments I've been hearing and reading from Dean supporters all morning.

Moore has pro-dem, anti-chimp books in nearly a million Democrat's hands as we speak. He's highly respected in liberal activists' circles. If I were to suddenly wake up tomorrow and doubt whether "I'd take" Moore's endorsement, I hope somebody tells me I'm a dope.

[ludwigb]

38. Actually I'm undecided, though Dean is my favorite on substance

But I like Clark and the opportunity he provides the Democrats. I just think Moore's a loose cannon, and I would be just as wary if Dean embraced Moore. My problem is not so much that I don't want him on the Democratic team--my problem is that he's "highly respected in liberal activists' circles." This is already rather unfortunate IMO and could be even more unfortunate should he change his mind down the road.

[corporatewhore]

35. well i dont think he would endorse howard "NRA" dean

I see this as more of a slight at dean than a endorsement of clark because dean is seen as the progressive frontrunner and gun control is very important to michael

[maxanne]

36. clearly

you don't know much about Moore's position on gun control, since MM is a member of the NRA.