A pair of shoes and an abortion

[LittleClarkie]

I spent a few minutes listening to Michael Savage, and now my ears are bleeding.

He played an excerpt of the woman from Iraq who called her mother (mommie, as Savage said to belittle her) about needing help because their equipment was so bad. He keeps saying that for NBC to get his recording so fast must mean that all of this is a set-up from the Kerry campaign. He likened NBC to Rathergate for even coughing up this story without checking it out. "All of them produce fabricated stories, every one."

He said that this woman, along with the rest of her comrades in arms, should be at the least put in jail, or at most shot as traitors. But they can't be because Bush is essentially a lame duck (before the election? Huh?)

He called her a coward, and then went off into a rant about how these people lack teeth and are only in the military because they couldn't get into college. Women like this one only go in for a pair of shoes and an abortion.

He didn't doubt, oddly enough, that they troops were ill-equipped. But, he said, none of them ever have the right to refuse an order or that will be the end of the military.

Listening to this man is like watching a car wreck. He is repulsive, and yet I can not turn away. WTF.

IS THIS WHAT HE CALLS SUPPORTING THE TROOPS!

Good God. I thought I was going to have a aneurysm. How does this sick bastard stay on the air!?

[aquart]

1. His charm?

After all, YOU were listening.

[LittleClarkie]

2. I know, I know

I buzz through talk radio on occasion, to see what talking points are being bandied about. I'd say Savage is about as bad as it gets though. Is that why he's on at night?

It was just the way he cavalierly just insulted our military that got me, insinuating that they are a bunch of mouth breathers who should just shut up and do what they're told because they aren't worthy of independant thought or self-preservation.

What a freak!

[secular_warrior]

3. Michael Wiener Savage is despicable right wing scum, but

there are many men (even Democratic men, especially the more moderate Dems like black men and white union guys) who don't think women should be on the front lines. What guys say when the girls aren't around isn't pretty sometimes, especially regarding this issue.

Many men feel that women compromise the strength of the military because they are physically smaller/weaker, simply don't have what it takes to kill and can't really handle the dirty job of war. Also, they feel the women are too much of a distraction to men who have no sexual release, being away from their wives/girlfriends and under the stress of war.

These are the reasons I've heard, and incidents like the Jessica Lynch situation, this recent situation with the female soldier calling her mother, and the Air Force rape cases only add fuel to the fire.

My own personal feelings are mixed/conflicted on the issue: I truly want equality for all, but also understand the extraordinary pressures men on the front lines are under (which doesn't excuse any type of negative behavior towards the women).

[incapsulated]

4. Gee

I didn't know women were in armed combat on the front lines with insurgents in Iraq.

Wait, they're not. And most don't want to be, btw.

I didn't know women where causing casualties because of their lack of "killer instinct".

Wait, they aren't. But sometimes, their rifles jam when trying to defend themselves or they aren't properly equipped.

I didn't know that lack of sex is what is causing rapes in the military.

Wait, it's not. It happens right here at home, and was happening only a week into the invasion.

I didn't know that women weren't allowed to serve their country and even lay down their lives for it, if they choose.

Wait, they are, and that's as it should be.

[secular_warrior]

8. no need to get upset - I agree with you

Of course women should be able to serve if they choose. I believe women should also be subject to draft as well, if it is ever reinstated.

I was simply trying to explain that, unfortunately not only right wing nuts like Savage feel that way - many regular men do also. It is a much bigger issue than some liberals want to acknowledge, and should be discussed in an open and honest fashion in order to help people get past their prejudices, and to come up with solutions that work best for everyone.

[incapsulated]

9. Well...

When you lay all that out and follow with the statement that you have "mixed/conflicted" feelings about the issue, and then bring up the "extraordinary pressure these men are under" (as if women are somehow contributing to this?) you can expect a bit of hostility.

Edit: and I know all too well how a lot of men "feel" about this issue, the question is what it has to do with Savage's comments in this thread. Nothing really, unless it's some kind of justification.

[secular_warrior]

11. No - it's not a justification at all

I took the time to type all of that out in order to explain to people that the opinion voiced by Savage is one held by many regular men, that it is unfortunately not just a view held by right wing nuts.

I'm conflicted in the sense that I understand the difficulty of the problem from all sides. The women aren't doing anything wrong. The situation just is what it is, and until we can talk openly about it without people getting upset, the issue will simply be forced underground for it to fester, like racism did for hundreds of years in this country.

My opinion is that it's better to know how people really feel instead of just pretending they don't feel that way. I guess I'm more of a libertarian in that regard.

[incapsulated]

14. First off, Savage wasn't talking about that

He wasn't attacking "women in the military" he was attacking the soldier for a) complaining about lack of equipment and b) those that disobey orders for any reason as "cowards" and that is was a "Kerry setup". He then threw in a sexist, repulsive attack for good measure, that's all. You are the one who turned it into a discussion of that issue.

I don't live in a bubble and I am well aware, as many are, of the attitude of some men toward women in the military. I'm not fainting from shock at hearing these "ugly truths" that guys talk about when the "girls" aren't around. Believe me, they talk about it right in front of them.

Finally, you seem to think there is a "problem" that needs to be discussed. I don't. Women serve in the military and will continue to do so. Those that have a problem with it will just have to deal because the excuses you posted are well-refuted bullshit. The problem in Iraq isn't women in uniform.

[secular_warrior]

19. There is a problem and it won't go away simply with tough talk.

Most military men feel the way I described above which results in hostility between themselves and the women they serve with. Obviously hostile relations between our men and women serving is not good for anyone - especially with their lives on the line out there.

Strawman - of course I know this isn't the "problem with Iraq". It is an issue the armed forces as a whole needs to deal with.

[Jai4WKC08]

21. No, not "most military men"

And ya know, it's really not much of a problem. Not within the military. It's the civilians in the RW who are trying to make a problem out of it. Chickenhawks, for the most part, and a smattering of old veterans who didn't serve with women, or if they did, only knew members of the WAC and WAAC who weren't even allowed to carry rifles or wear field uniforms.

I joined Army ROTC in 1973, entered active duty in '77, so I know something of the transition. And I retired in '97, so I'm not totally out of touch with the way things are now. Mostly I can only speak to the Army, altho my last couple of assignments were in joint commands, so I'm not totally clueless about the other services.

But I think the Army is mostly what you're talking about, right? I will offer these opinions first on the other services: The Navy has its problems with women, to some extent because they tend to be extremely tradition-bound, some because the prohibitions against women on ships has only fairly recently been lifted. The Marines tend to be like Army infantry units, and women are not really utilized fully and have not come into their own. I never saw first-hand any problem at all in the Air Force, except that they tend to treat anyone who is not a fighter pilot like dirt, so that includes the women.

As for the Army, there have been official studies on the issue, and "most" military men only care that the people working beside them be competent and capable, and "most" think that military women are getting the job done just fine.

About the only place within the military where you find a significant level of doubt about the abilities of female soldiers is in units where there are no women. Infantry, armor, and such. Because they don't know many women in uniform, they buy into the stereotype. And because the guys who sign up for the combat arms are likely to be more conservative when they join. Even then, the old attitudes mostly exist among the enlisted men. Officers generally know better.

Army-wide, there are some misgivings about women being assigned to some types of combat units, but not sent into combat in general. And you find that among men and women. On the whole, enlisted women do not want to serve in combat (but that is true for enlisted men as well, except for the ones who signed up for it... and even them after they've seen the elephant). Female officers, otoh, generally want to be treated, judged, and assigned based on their individual abilities, whether they WANT to be sent into combat or not. They are every bit as professional as the men.

As for the original Savage assertion, remember that the unit which refused the mission was NOT a combat unit. It was transportation. Not generally designed to deploy to the forward combat area. Which is one reason the vehicles are not armor-protected and the unit not equipped with the highest tech weaponry and personal protective gear.

But Iraq is an insurgency, and there is no forward area. That's just a plain fact. Women in support units are in combat, whether they want to be, or ever thought they would be. Some are probably not dealing with it well, but I would submit, especially among reservists, that's true for the men as well. It's not at all what they expected when they signed on. But I would also submit the bigger problem is with the leadership of the reserve units, which is sub-par in a lot of cases.

Guys like Savage, and your civilian friends, can rant and rave all they want about what a big "problem" women in the military is. But the other simple fact is, the military can NOT function without us. Not without a draft (you know, the one Bush promised us we wouldn't have--hahahaha...).

And even with a draft, getting rid of the women isn't feasible either. There are just too many specialties that women, especially young women just out high school, excell far above their male counterparts (in the aggregate). I remember when the Reagan administration tried to roll back a lot of the progress we'd made in the Ford and Carter years and they found out it was just not an option. Military leadership, officer and NCO, has in fact learned to deal with that fact, no matter what they might think. The junior enlisted figure it out as they mature.

[Old and In the Way]

5. Good thing you posted this at 5AM

There are a few women vets on the board that might take exception to your musings...

[secular_warrior]

6. Those aren't my opinions

They're what I've heard from other men, including Democratic men.

I strongly believe in equality for all, but also understand the difficulty of the situation.

I respect all women, especially those who are willing to die for their country.

Sometimes open and honest dialogue means hearing ugly things.

[REP]

12. "Open and Honest" Doesn't Mean "Passing Lame Stereotypes Off As Facts"

Just an FYI.

[secular_warrior]

16. I never passed anything off "as facts"

I stated clearly that they were opinions I've heard from other people.

Just an FYI.

[Gore1FL]

7. They thought that about African Americans once too.

Interstingly women make the best fighter pilots, because the typical size and build of a woman allows her to better withstand G-forces. When you are zipping around in an F-16 and suddenly need to pull 9 gravities, a woman is much more likely to be able to take the stress and not black out so easily.

[LittleClarkie]

10. Aside from the women in combat issue

Savage was also reviving an attitude I haven't heard in the longest time -- the stereotypical military grunt who couldn't make it on the outside, and so joined up. The stereotypical kid who couldn't even manage to graduate from high school.

Savage just modified it to "college" and added the trailer trash element (toothless and all) and the women in combat issue (shoes and abortions) and voila, an all-purpose insult that manages to offend everyone all at once.

Not to mention the added benefit of sending these mouth-breathing bottom-feeders into a war zone without proper equipment. Good riddence. We won't have to support them on welfare anymore. And don't think you're getting health care when you get back either, you dumb bastards. Ha ha, fooled ya. Thought you were serving your country, didn't ya. Turned out your government doesn't give a shit.

(Maybe I better go to bed now before the top of my head comes off and I say something I'll REALLY regret.)

All I know is John Kerry knows how to treat a veteran properly. This shit would NOT be happening on his watch. Ever.

(I do understand in part where you're coming from with the Jessica Lynch example. The government would not have reacted the same way to a man being in that situation. Bless her heart, though, that Jessica refused to be used for propaganda purposes, last I heard. As for me, the only objection I've heard about women in combat lately is whether or not a woman could carry her male counterpart out of a combat zone if need be. But I haven't given it a ton of thought, myself.)

[secular_warrior]

13. Yep. Savage is an un-American, right wing hate monger

far worse than the standard conservative blowhard.

When you think about it though, that is how most conservatives view the military, as expendable fodder who should just shut up and be happy to fight for "America" (the right wing agenda, i.e. white Christian corporate imperialism).

I completely agree - Lynch was very courageous for having stood up to the BFEE and refusing to be used as propaganda.

[Born_A_Truman]

15. Some men called their mothers & grandmothers...

I supposed he would call them sissies too.

And until the issue of contaminated fuel is settled, I'm not going to pass judgement on these troops. It might be that they saved a few choppers from crashing.

[LittleClarkie]

17. My freeper neighbors and Savage are both saying

that another group of soldiers completed the mission with no trouble. How much you wanna bet we don't have all the details yet though.

[Born_A_Truman]

18. Completed the mission...

Meaning drove the contaminated fuel to the other destination. Think we'll ever hear what happened to the fuel or if it was ever tested? I don't.

[Crunchy Frog]

20. Savage Weiner needs to come to terms

with his latent homosexuality. He could start by coming clean about having that affair with Alan Ginsburg. Admitting it to himself might help him get over the feeling that he has to hate women.

As far as calling mothers goes, I've read dozens of stories about male soldiers calling their parents, often crying over the phone. It doesn't make them sissies, it makes them human. As far as I know, Savage Weiner has never been anywhere near the inside of a combat zone, so I'm not surprised that he has no sympathy for people who have the real guts to serve their country in uniform. It's very easy when you're sitting on the sidelines to point at soldiers in combat and talk about what cowards they are.

Oh, and if refusing a direct order while in the military is so bad, I wonder how he feels about refusing an order to take a physical while serving with the national guard, let alone, simply not showing up for more than a year. I guess he's OK with that.

Just some sleepy, early morning rantings. Sorry for the incoherence.

[MsTryska]

22. may i siggest a Fatwa on his head?

he is unpatriotic, and doesn't support our troops.


i think that's grounds for beheading.