Was Stewart Feuding With Carlson Or With Crossfire? (relates to Kerry)

[DrFunkenstein]

The media spin about this confrontation has the marked whiff of damage control to it. It hardly seemed to me that Stewart's point was to ridicule Tucker Carlson, although he certainly returned fire at the bow-tied ass-boy.

To me, it seemed to be saying that the public - and ultimately Kerry - were not served by Begala and Carville. Although the two liberals do monkey the talking points of "our side," they only serve to polarize the American people into the binary "us-vs.-them" logic of Bush's world.

Let's face it folks, there is more to America than Fahrenheit 9/11 and The Passion of the Christ. Lots more. And, yes, I loved Moore's flick and was tepidly outraged by Mel Gibson's irreligious snuff film, but that's not the point.

One of the major problems that has plagued Kerry (from even back to the primaries) has been this desire to reduce all arguments into a false dilemma, a reductio ad absurdum of the world into a choice between A and B.

Was Kerry pro-war or anti-war? Although his position remains the same, he was pro-war against Dean and anti-war against Bush. That wasn't a flip-flop - it was a ridiculous false dilemma. Kerry supported the use of force, but only as a last resort (which doesn't fall neatly into either box).

This happened to Kerry time and time again where his position was the correct one, the most responsible one, but made no sense according to the binary logic of a vapid media (prodded on by a perversely cynical campaign by Bush/Cheney).

I'm with Jon Stewart - sure it sounds great to have Carville get in a zinger, just the same as a Big Mac tastes great, but it leaves you feeling bloated and depressed.

In the words of Jon Stewart, it's a "drag."

[GreenPartyVoter]

1. Hey Doc, did you check out this article on the feud?

Last Friday afternoon, when comedian Jon Stewart called CNN Crossfire co-host Tucker Carlson a body part exclusive to men, maybe half a million viewers finally saw an honest moment on this program.

Too bad. While it was not the first time ever on TV that the American media punditocracy was ripped for its failures, it was probably the most satisfying.

That's because it was live, and Stewart confronted the enemy head-on, instead of mocking it from his Daily Show perch where he anchors his celebrated "fake news" program.

No wonder more than a million people have downloaded video of the exchange. (Try onegoodmove.org or mediamatters.org.) In fact, due to traffic, some websites crashed.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1019-02.htm

[DrFunkenstein]

4. Thanks! Check Out This One...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43775-2004Oct18.html?nav=rss_politics

[RafterMan]

13. NYTimes was good

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/20/arts/television/20watc.html

and CNN International at least understood the criticism:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/10/19/television.stewart.reut/

Those two bits from Salon were still the best, though.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Another good one. I'd say Jon is coming off better than Crossfire

in these two cases. What about the rest of the media?

[sui generis]

7. I saw about 100K downloads in two hours on Monday

betcha someone at CNN didn't sleep very soundly that night!

I'm surprised that Stewart didn't really tear that Carlson bug-eating-man-bitch a new one. Tucker got off very lightly with his comparison to the masculine appendage. I'm guessing that bit wasn't originally personal except that Carlson twice attemped to "steal" the topic before Stewart was done speaking.

But you know sometimes when you've had enough performances, it really is okay to judge the performer too, and I think Crossfire has been judged.

[DrFunkenstein]

19. It Wasn't A Cheney "FU" - It Was A Jeff Spicoli

"You dick!"

[aden_nak]

2. He was feuding with Crossfire, but Tucker took it personally.

Probably because Tucker KNOWS he is a hack but won't admit it, even to himself. And plus he's the more combative, dick-ish of the two. I also imagine that he dislikes Stewart more because of the content on The Daily Show.

[IrateCitizen]

5. I think NoFacts and Carville took it personally, as well...

NoFacts called Stewart "dangerously uninformed, and not funny" at the end of Monday's Crossfire. Of course, perhaps NoFacts' dislike of Stewart stems from the way in which Stewart has labeled the partisan hack columnist "douchebag for liberty".

Carville admitted that Stewart was funny, but called him a "pompous ass".

I think that Jon touched a real nerve with these folks, one that is raw because deep down they know everything he said was true.

[aden_nak]

9. Sure, they got all uppity when Stewart wasn't there.

And when they'd had the weekend to mull it over. It's call protecting their jobs, and I'd expect nothing less from them. Novak was going to slam Stewart either way, because Stewart takes special time out on his show to point out what an asshole Novak is. ;)

[DrFunkenstein]

18. Like Bush Getting Cocky When Kerry is Not In the Room

I have nothing against chickens, but that's what I call 'chickenshit.'

[DrFunkenstein]

12. It All Happened At The Moment Stewart Said "Miserable Failure"

If you watch the tape again (and, believe me, I have), you can see a flash of insight on Carlson's face where he looks deep inside himself, understands what Stewart is getting at, and decides to maintain the illusion rather than acknowledge any lack.

Once that happened, there was no turning back. I am sure that Begala had that same look, and that same conclusion.

The most honest and moving moment for me was not the "dick" comment, which is fun to watch Jon's face as he decides to do it, but when he literally pleads with Tucker not to go to break and resume the bullshit (I think I have decided to let myself curse at DU, since it is my naturally voice - although I'll never use it towards another DU'er).

[comsymp]

10. I'd even go a little farther and suggest that

he was feuding with the MSM's "news" shows in general, and Crossfire in particular *that day* because he has previously, and frequently, stated his opinion of that show's performance as being the most egregious.

Stewart has often remarked on the sorry quality of the MSM, in the context of reports of TDS's perceived superior value as a news source. It really seems to bother him (as it should everybody) that these shows do We The People a major disservice by doing the Bread & Circuses thing and never holding politicians' feet to the fire. Of course, being JS, he also suggests that it could be the sorry quality of TDS's comedy which leads ppl to view 'em as a serious news source.

Tucker just made the mistake of trying to call JS out on it.

[NYCGirl]

3. I think he was talking about the news media in total, but Crossfire

in particular. Carlson was just singled out because he spoke to Stewart, while Begala just sat there sort of struck dumb. When he spoke, he just tried to get back to the show's "script".

[DrFunkenstein]

8. Absolutely - He Was Railing At "Theater" Vs. Journalism

The whole depressing failure of the "Fourth Estate" since the morning of Sept. 11. Ok, maybe he didn't push it back that far, but that's where it all started for me.

I used to watch The O'Reilly Factor because it would at least piss me off, whereas CNN just completely bummed me out.

[9119495]

21. The Fourth Estate is dead!

I'm glad you brought that up. In my studies of history, I'm noticing the Fourth Estate was basically a myth. Where truth finding did exist, it was always up against some official mouthpiece. If the fourth estate was the press as a watch dog, then did it ever exist? Or am I just overly cynical right now.

Is a journalist telling the truth alone in a forest significant?

[DrFunkenstein]

22. As "America, The Book" Describes The Watergate Scandal

"President brought down by investigative journalists. Investigative journalists declare "nice work," take rest of millenium off."

[wurzel]

6. Stewart is feuding with the TV media. And he is right to do so.

Our media has become a national disgrace and embarrassment. It started with Clinton and gotten progressively worse since. The media is more of a problem than George Bush. Bush serves the media. Not the other way around. The media serves Corporate America.

[Mandate My Ass]

11. IMO he was clearly, plainly aiming his criticism at Crossfire

He opened up by saying something like "your show is bad and I just wanted to come and say that to your face."

When he called their version of debate "theater" he was obviously critiquing the format where people scream over each other instead of engaging in debate. Their format is designed so that the loudest wins the debate, rather than the person who can refute another's argument. Just scream over them and you win. We all know who engages in this form of discourse most often.

Also, when he said "you're failing America" I think he meant the show and, in the broadest sense, the entire media.

I'm glad he didn't talk about Bush or corporate control of the media, he just gave an impassioned plea for them (the show) to engage in the practice of journalism for a change.

[DrFunkenstein]

17. 100% - It Is Just That Crossfire Seems To Represent The Symbol

Of all that is sucky about the media at large. Well, thats not entirely true, because the show doesn't encompass the faux-scandals and the moronic speculation they entail.

[LuminousX]

14. A Jon Said... I think they are all dicks.

He wasn't picking just on Carlson, he was saying that shows like Crossfire don't really give information, they relay talking points. Nothing more.

[Robert Oak]

16. I think what Stewart is bringing up

Is "news" is shallow, they do not talk the issues...

Everyday seems to be some sort of PR press release of the "spin of the day" discussion.

Today seems to be "Catholic day". We've had "mary day" and so on..
but little real news.

The media is just used as a strategic tool by the propaganda teams
of the parties and multinational corporations..

they just do not report the news.

As a result we have most people not even knowing which candidate
is against a tax cut for > 200k or why.

I agree with Stewart it is outrageous people are getting the news
from his show...

but they are because he uses humor to show how the news is propaganda
often.

[glitch]

20. You are absolutely right - it was about snapping people out of the binary

mindset. If we're going to make it we've got to wake out of it.
Lots of people are very threatened by this complex world, and very comforted by reducing the world to B/W.
That's why they get so vicious when you try to break them out of it, which Jon tried to do.
We're talking reptilian brain here, fight or flight, the ultimate binary.
Bush is the binary icon, it is all he does.
That is why they are even more fervent for him than they were for Reagan.
And Jon Stewart is very brave, whether he knows it or not.

[Bread and Circus]

23. IMO Carville/Begala are just as bad for America as Tucker...

Novaks is worse than all three. They all do a disservice to America with their partisan hackery. It's crap and I can't watch it.

[IrateCitizen]

24. Agreed! And a personal anecdote...

The funny thing is, I have talked politics with some pretty RW people that I served with in the military. And when the "rhetoric" cools off and we actually discuss issues, we find that we actually agree on a lot more things than we disagree. Primarily among these is the detrimental effect that corporate power has on our democracy.

But then you go and turn on shows like Crossfire, and all they do is reinforce the partisan lines. They're detrimental to real civic discourse. Carville, Begala, Carlson and Novak have to pretend otherwise to keep their collective heads from exploding.