United Methodists Calling for Accountable Leadership Petition

[Nite Owl]

This was sent to me by a friend who is a Methodist. With all the talk of Kerry and the conservative bishops I wonder why this hasn't made the news:



To: George W. Bush; Richard "Dick" Cheney
George W. Bush, Richard "Dick" Cheney (respondents)
Rev. Mark Craig - Sr. Pastor of Highland Park UMC
Rev. Michael L. Nichols - D.S. of the Dallas South District
Bishop William B. Oden - Bishop of North Texas Annual Conference United Methodist Council of Bishops

A Letter of Complaint Against George W. Bush and Dick Cheney

We, the undersigned, do hold that George W. Bush, a member of Park Hill United Methodist Church (UMC) in Dallas, Texas, and Dick Cheney (local membership unknown) are undeniably guilty of at least four chargeable offenses for lay members as listed in 2702.3 of the 2000 Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church. These offenses are: crime, immorality, disobedience to the Order and Discipline of The UMC, and dissemination of doctrine contrary to the established standards of doctrine of The UMC. For these offenses, we the undersigned call for an immediate and public act of repentance by the respondents. If the respondents do not reply with sincere and public repentance for their crimes, we demand that their membership in the United Methodist Church be revoked until such time that they sincerely and publicly repent.


There is a lot more at the site. I'm not a Methodist so those who are can sign and tell us if this is as serious as it sounds.


http://www.petitiononline.com/tmrloc03/petition.html

[NC_Nurse]

1. wow...

that's really cool!
:kick:

[jbond56]

5. checking it out

My father is a Methodist Minister. I asked him to check into. I will update.

[AspenRose]

28. E-mail me and let me know too, please

My father in law is a UMC minister as well and works for a conference back east.

My husband is president of trustees at our UMC church.

I want to see what happens with this.

[DenverDem]

2. "I wonder why this hasn't made the news", surely you jest.

The "news" is nothing but corporate globalist propaganda. They would never report an actual act of consience by a real church denomination against the evil megalomaniacs in power who are hiding behind the false religiosity of the fundigellical prevarication.

Truth can never be spoken to power on corporate globalist media.

BTW as a United Methodist member I was proud to sign the petition.

[pelagius]

3. Great! But please note this is not the denomination calling...

...for Bush and Cheney's censure, but a group of United Methodist members.

Although I'm certain there's plenty among the UMC leadership who would dearly love to do so.

[DenverDem]

7. As a democratic church, UMC members can petition for this action.

Laymen have as much administrative rights as clergymen in our church.

We have a "constitution" called the Book of Discipline that lays out the procedure.

[sandnsea]

10. Neither has the Vatican

Rather it's been a couple of bishops, but that's plastered all over the news every time one of them farts.

[RevCheesehead]

16. Yes, in effect, it is...if a trial is held.

see my posts below for elaboration.

[pelagius]

23. Thanks for the clarification...

...but I felt the topic title could be construed as if the UMC had agreed to the petition and that's why I commented

It's sort of like "Episcopalians Call for a Decent Chardonnay" when it's just the Episcopalians in my house, not the denomination.

But, in any event: Go, Methodists, go!

[RevCheesehead]

4. Holy Moly! This isn't even on the UMeth News Service yet!!!!!!

They are following the Book of Discipline to the letter!

If this is followed through, and there is no response from bush or cheney, they could be "dis-membered!"

Proud United Methodist democrat here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[legally blonde]

6. I'm more than a little skeptical of this

It doesn't look like an "official" petition from the powers that be in the Methodist church. Actually, it looks like a bunch of concerned Methodists got together, wrote this up, and starting e-mailing it to their friends. I'm not saying that it doesn't quote official church doctrine, because it looks like it does (although it's been at least 10 years since I was confirmed into the church so I can't vouch for it).

[DenverDem]

8. A bunch of concerned Methodists who get together ARE the powers that be.

We are a democratically run church and this is all in the Book of Discipline.

Look it up.

These are also the Pastor of Highland Park, his District Superintendant and the Bishop of the North Texas Conference. A little heavier than just some "concerned Methodists".

With an online petition, it could be a scam, but, if so, it is an elaborate one that is based on Disciplinary rules.

[RevCheesehead]

9. According to the Discipline,

"Chargeable Offenses" may be brought against a member of the United Methodist Church, but one must outline the procedure as set forth by the Discipline.

According to their petition, these charges are outlined and referenced to both the Discipline and the Social Principles. These charges ARE serious, because they are filed by GWB's pastor (the one appointed to his home congregation), GWB's Superintendent, and GWB's Bishop.

Anyone remember the big stink a few years ago about Rev. Jimmy Creech? (He performed Gay Marriages). A simliar procedure was used to file charges against him. Earlier this year, an openly gay pastor was also brought up on charges.

This petition is showing that lay members of the UMC, not just pastors, are also held to accountability.

If you are a United Methodist, sign the petition, and be sure to release your e-mail to the administrator for signature verification. Others have also signed the petition, but their names will not be submitted on the petition.

[RevCheesehead]

34. CORRECTION (to above)

The pastor, District Supt. and Bishop did NOT sign the letter. This is a letter of complaint which is addressed to *'s pastor, DS, and Bishop.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

This does not, in any way, detract from the serious nature of this letter of complaint. When filed, the Bishop MUST review the complaint.

[sandnsea]

11. A Bishop

If it were a Catholic Bishop, it would be all over the news. As I said above. Good to hear it, just the same.

[legally blonde]

12. I'm not trying to dis this petition

or the people who signed it, so please don't think that I am. I'm just skeptical, that's all. As a concerned Methodist, I think it's great. But I read some of the comments of people who signed the petition, and some weren't very nice--one called the petitioners a "bunch of crazed left-wing Kerry supporters" or something to that effect. I think that if it's official, from Methodist members, it shouldn't have derogatory comments.

[RevCheesehead]

14. I hear and understand your concerns.

Online petitions will have dubious signatures, but hey, so did Ralph Nader's petitions!

When you sign, you submit:
a) Your Name
b) Your Local Church membership, or Conference membership
c) Your e-mail address for verification.

For those posting crank comments, they will not be submitted. Those who signed in, giving their e-mail to the administrator (or making it available to the public), they may be contacted for verification.

****************

Oddly enough, I happened to bring home the Discipline tonight (charge conference looms!). If you have access to one, you can see for yourself in para. 2702.3 "Chargeable Offenses"

2702.3 "A lay member of a local church may be charged with the following offenses, and, if so, may choose a trial: (a) immorality; (b)crime; (c) disobedience to the Order and Discipline of The United Methodist Church; (d) dissemination of doctrines contrary to the established standards of doctrine of The United Methodist Church; (e) racial harassment; (f) sexual abuse; (g) sexual misconduct; (h) sexual harassment; or (i) child abuse.

Paragraph 2706.4 outlines the procedure for referral and investigation of a judicial complaint when the respondent is a layperson.

source: The Book of Discipline of the United Methodist Church, 2000.

[legally blonde]

17. thanks for the info, Rev

I didn't know about the verification thing. I just don't want anything silly or inappropriate to be associated with the Methodist church, especially as this is something that will likely anger more than a few people.

[shelley806]

13. I am so glad you told me that...

You're right. This is no small church. I know several people who go there, and my brother, sisterinlaw and nephew and nieces are very active in Highland Park Presbyterian Church, their"sister" so to speak. This is a big deal if Dallas' HP Methodist is involved.

[RevCheesehead]

15. We are a "connectional" church - which means,

every United Methodist is accountable to one another. All churches are under the care of their District Superintendent, and each Conference is under the care of their Bishop. It doesn't matter if your local church has a membership of 10 or 5,000...the Discipline applies to all.

The decision of the local pastor, district superintendent, and bishop to proceed with these charges is serious, and very much in accordance with disciplinary procedure.

(and for those who are wondering, Bill Clinton attended a Methodist church in DC, but retained his membership in the Baptist church. Hillary is a United Methodist.)

[ogsball]

19. John Edwards is a UM too. nt

[RevCheesehead]

24. You're right! Sorry, John (and Elizabeth)!

[AspenRose]

29. So is Chelsea Clinton...

She chose UMC.

[RevCheesehead]

35. AGAIN: NOTE CORRECTION/clarification

The local pastor, DS, and Bishop have not yet received the complaint. Once the letter is presented, the Bishop is required to review the complaint and either take action or dismiss the charges. But even the Bishop's decision can be appealed to the Judicial Council.

[ogsball]

18. I believe that Highland Park is the largest

United Methodist Church in the country. It was a few years ago anyway. Overtook Huston 1st, which had a lot of Enron exec. in it.

[shelley806]

20. Lots of real high profiles in both churches

and Highland park Pres is huge. Mike (bro)is among the few who are Democrats and don't believe in the literal translation of the bible

[kimchi]

21. Good for them!

I'm so glad the UMC is showing that Bush is NOT behaving as a Christian.

[DeepModem Mom]

22. kick

[jbond56]

25. response from UMC Minister

<messages from my father>
I wrote Mark to ask him. It is not likely that is is real. Bush is a member of Highland Park but we cannot remove someones membership in that manner.
</father>

[RevCheesehead]

27. actually, we can - but it's rarely done this way

see my post above re: the Book of Discipline, 2000.

(UMethodist minister here!)

[jbond56]

30. update

My father spoke with Mark's secretary earlier today. She was well aware of the letter but they have no connection to it. She reminded him of the fact that Mark is friends with President Bush.

Being a Methodist minister you should understand how hard it is to remove someones membership. Technically possible but not in our life time.

[RevCheesehead]

33. If this goes to trial and there is a conviction, yes, he could be removed.

Para. 2711.3 (penalties)
"...the trial court shall determine the penalty, which shall require a vote of at least seven members. The trial court shall have the power to expel the respondent from the Church,...or to fix a lesser penalty. The penalty fixed by the trial court shall take effect immediately unless otherwise indicated by the trial court."

*******************

I will admit it's unlikely this will go far; BUT, if the complaint is filed, it MUST be reviewed by the Bishop, who may choose to dismiss the charges (for procedural reasons, not political). And even that decision can be appealed to the Judicial Council.

I was unaware that the pastor ("Mark") and the Bishop were not the authors of the petition, but rather, the recepients of the complaint. Apparently, this has not been presented yet. (BTW, there is no need for a "petition." A complaint from one single member of the UMC would be enough to start an investigation.)

We, as a church, are BOUND to the Discipline, whether we agree with it politically or not. For a Bishop to simply ignore it, or refuse to consider the charges BASED ON POLITICAL GROUNDS would likely result in the Bishop being brought up on charges himself.

As to removing someone from membership: We do it all the time at charge conference: people who no longer have any tangible affiliation with the church, who do not attend or contribute in more than 2 years, and who fail to respond to inquiries about membership.

To have someone forcibly removed from membership involves the above procedures (inquiry/trial/conviction/penalty).

[GOPBasher]

26. And they media won't talk about this?

How can the media be so unashamed to be so obviously pro-Bush? The Kerry/communion thing, as the original poster said, has been stapled on every TV station forever. But no, let's not talk about this thing! Unbelievable. :mad:

[jbond56]

31. media

Pastor where Bush is a member is not involved. not news

We all know how badly shrub has handled our country. old news

a rule from the book of discipline relating to membership in the church. not news

Someone creating a petition. not news


The media sucks but I think they are right on this one. I have to go take a several hot showers and kick my own ass for defending media.

[Nite Owl]

32. jb thanks for your research

but I have to disagree with you that this is not news if it is a valid petition. It's news because of the way Kerry has been treated by a small segment of the Catholic church, it's news because it shows that memebers of his own church feel strongly about this and it's news because it shows that not all feel that he is acting as a Christian but just the opposite. It should not be left unconfronted that he is in any way following the precepts of Christ. My friend has sent this to several media outlets and I hope it does end up at least getting a mention somewhere.

[RevCheesehead]

36. Agreed. Once this complaint is presented, it WILL be in the news.

Count on it.

Again, remember all the disciplinary procedures brought against Jimmy Creech, Greg Dell (who, ironically, signed the petition!), and Karen Dammen; all clergy who either defended and performed gay marriages (Jimmy and Greg), or was a "self-avowed practicing homosexual" but also a conference member in good standing" (Karen).

These were MAJOR issues at both the 2000 and 2004 General Conference, and all three clergy were VERY MUCH in the news.

Most complaints are filed against clergy. It is unusual, but not unheard of, for laity to be brought forth on charges.

If this thing has legs (and it looks like it does), this will at least gain some media attention.

[jbond56]

38. IMO not a story until/

unless An ordained methodist minister picks it up and caries it.

That is all I'm saying.

I cannot seem to find any cases where one member used this rule on another member that were successful.

If you can give me more info I would like to follow up on it.

At this point I don't think you can compare it to the catholic assault on President John Kerry. In that case you had a priest making the accusations in public and embarrassing himself. Here it is a lay person.

Due to the country being so split, I think this will end up looking strictly political and summarily dismissed. Look at the cases you referenced and how heavily influenced they were by public pressures. I think they shined a spot beam on the bigotry that exists in American churches. I just don't see a Bishop stepping into the spotlight to back this cause.

Does anyone think this will be deemed significant without a minister/bishop or 500,000 signatures?

Do you think something so political charged not being lead by a bishop would make it to general conference?

[RevCheesehead]

39. No, of course not - it's not nearly that far yet.

The VERY FIRST STEP: UM Book of Discipline, 2000

Para. 2703.4 "When the respondent is a layperson - In all cases, the pastor or district superintendent should take pastoral steps to resolve any complaints. If such pastoral response does not result in resolution and a written complaint is made against a layperson for any of the offenses in para. 2702.3, the pastor in charge or co-pastors (para. 205.1) of the local church, in consultation with the district superintendent and the district lay leader, may appoint a committee on investigation consisting of seven lay members who come from other congregations, exclusive of the churches of the respondent or the complainant. Committee members shall be in good standing and should be deemed of good character. The committee should reflect racial, ethnic, and gender diversity...."

After this first step, the pastor or DS may appoint counsel for the church. Counsel for the church shall prepare, sign, and refer the judicial complaint, with all relevant material, to the chairperson of committee on investigation.
ON EDIT: (This is similar to a DA convening a Grand Jury - to see if there is a case to be presented for trial.)

Para. 2704.4.c "All complaints against a layperson under 2702.3 shall be submitted in writing, signed by the person(s) making the original complaint, and delivered to the pastor in charge of the local church of which the respondent is a member, and a copy shall be sent to the respondent."

Para. 2704.4.e "The district superintendent shall preside at all meetings of the committee, shall be given a copy of the judicial complaint and any response, and shall have the right to be present and to speak at all meetings of the committee."

THE NEXT STEP is preparation of the Judicial Complaint by counsel for the Church, outlined in para. 2705.

*******

IMHO, we aren't even through step one yet.

********

The clergy cases that went to General Conference had NOTHING to do with judicial decisions - those decisions are the exclusive right of each individual Annual Conference. The only reason they were mentioned at Gen. Conference was because GC was considering making changes to the Discipline regarding clergy and things they can and cannot do while performing their duties as pastor (a job description, if you will).

The Bush Complaint will ultimately be decided, if it goes that far, by the North Texas Annual Conference Committee on Investigations, and if it proceeds further, to a Trial Court, convened by the District Superintendent (para. 2714). The Bishop has NOTHING to do with the investigation or trial of a layperson...he or she oversees the DS and makes sure proper procedures are followed.

And, finally:
Para. 2714.6 "If the trial court finds that the charges are proven by clear and convincing evidence, then it may impose such penalties as it may determine, including that the membership of the charged layperson in The United Methodist Church be terminated; provided that the trial court shall first consider other remedies that would fulfill the provisions of para. 220."

[Sugarbleus]

37. I didn't think Bush was a member of UMC?

I thought he was part of Episcopal or something like that. UMC is pretty liberal...I can't imagine GW belonging to a church like that.

Besides, GW's religious spewings are more in line with Southern Baptist and Pentecostal persuasions. Curious....