discussion w/ crazed fundie - "Cleland dropped grenade on himself"

[DancingBear]

Can you believe it? i was talking with a friend last night who related the story to me. Seems as if one of her old college room mates actually believes that Max Cleland deliberately dropped a grenade down his pants(!) while leaving the base one day -THAT"S how he lost his legs.

She has asked me for info to refute the story (she is an elderly woman, and not well versed on the Internet), so I've come to "you guys" for help. Anyone here have links to the "debunking" of this story, as well as a narrative, military records, etc. concerning Cleland's actual wounding? I'm assuming someone has this - it will save me considerable time researching it.

It's "help drop off Kerry signs" day today, so I'll check back in later.

I appreciate the help - and she does, too!

[apnu]

1. Here's a bunch of data on his military bio

http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Max_Cleland#Military_Service

It includes his Silver Star citation. Unless your fundie wants to disagree with the U.S. Army... you've got all the proof you need.

[Tennessee Gal]

2. Someone else dropped the grenade.

In fact, Cleland was wounded picking up a grenade that someone else dropped, during what he says was a combat mission.

“I volunteered for a combat mission with the 1st Air Calvary division going into break the siege at Khe Sahn, and if that isn’t a combat mission, you ought to ask some of the people that were there and the 200 guys that were killed in that mission.”

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=42979

[Bandit]

16. I was there

Not when Cleland was injured but at the relief of Khe Sahn. I was in the same unit as Max Cleland 2nd of the 12th, 1st Cav Div. After 73 days of being underground and not being able to move at all the Marines called on the 1st Cav for assistance. My unit was the one called in for the relief mission. Believe me there were no beer halls there. There was nothing above ground standing and planes could not land on the airfield. Supplies were air dropped to the Marines and most of them ended up in Enemy hands. If that was not Combat than there was no combat in Vietnam.

[DemBones DemBones]

20. Thanks for being there, while DIm Son was keeping the skies of Texas

clear of Viet Cong.

Khe Sanh sounds like pure Hell on earth. :cry:

[librechik]

21. Shrub dropped a grenade on himself too! It's called "Iraq"

and it's the explosive subject the Pukkes try to avoid by talking about that other grenade.

Can we STOP talking about VietNam for a few weeks? Can we live in a Reality Based Community for once? Not if the Pukkes have anything to do with it...

[auburngrad82]

3. The way I understand it

Is that a fellow American soldier dropped the grenade as they were jumping from a helicopter into a "hot zone". Cleland thought for years that it could have been his own grenade that injured him. Years after Vietnam Cleland met the other soldier who told him what had happened and apologized. Cleland was moved to tears because he finally had closure and could stop blaming himself.

Events like this happened all the time in Vietnam. You had very young individuals that were being thrown into very volatile situations and accidents did happen. They happen in Iraq.

Cleland is a highly decorated Vietnam veteran who not only served his country admirable during the war but also served it after the war as a senator from Georgia. This despite losing three limbs. Many soldiers with that kind of injury give up and die, not from the injuries but because they don't want to live with the injuries.

I have nothing but respect for Cleland and I despise all the right-wingers that feel that attacking him is "fair". They don't feel that attacking the Draft Dodger for his lack of service.

[Tennessee Gal]

4. Ann Coulter started that crap!

Hardly a believable source!

Errors in First Column


(NOTE: Column title on Coulter’s website and syndication is ““Max Cleland Drops Political Grenade.”)



Dropped grenade on himself. “He saw a grenade on the ground and picked it up. He could have done that at Fort Dix. In fact, Cleland could have dropped a grenade on his foot as a National Guardsman. … Indeed, if Cleland had dropped a grenade on himself at Fort Dix rather than in Vietnam, he would never have been a U.S. senator in the first place. … There was no bravery involved in dropping a grenade on himself with no enemy troops in sight.”



REALITY: Cleland did not drop the grenade on himself. It exploded as he was picking it up off the ground.



About to drink. “Cleland lost three limbs in an accident during a routine noncombat mission where he was about to drink beer with friends.”



REALITY: Coulter gave the false impression that Cleland had a beer in his hand ready to drink and clumsily dropped the grenade. Cleland had just jumped down from a helicopter. The grenade was on the ground and exploded as he picked it up.



Lucky to lose limbs. “Luckily for Cleland’s political career and current pomposity about Bush, he happened to do it while in Vietnam.”



REALITY: Lucky?

http://www.whoslying.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=474&Itemid=1

[derby378]

19. Ann "Rita Skeeter" Coulter snags another mind

She should be ashamed of herself. Maybe Teresa should spank Dreamboat Annie instead of Karen Hughes...

[NYCGirl]

5. And print out this remarkable article for her..or read it to her.

http://www.esquire.com/features/articles/2004/040803_mfe_max_1.html

[KC21304]

6. More here

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/02/con04074.html

[retread]

7. Isn't this the same kind of crap than manthrax was spreading

not too long ago? These chicken-shits are spineless cowards.

[SomeYoungGuy]

8. Cleland Grenade incident

From http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Max_Cleland#Military_Service

"Grenade Explosion Accident. In his own words, <10>

On April 8, 1968, I volunteered for one last mission. The helicopter moved in low. The troops jumped out with M16 rifles in hand as we crouched low to the ground to avoid the helicopter blades. Then I saw the grenade. It was where the chopper had lifted off. It must be mine, I thought. Grenades had fallen off my web gear before. Shifting the M16 to my left hand and holding it behind me, I bent down to pick up the grenade. A blinding explosion threw me backwards. "

[newyawker99]

22. Hi SomeYoungGuy!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[gauguin57]

9. It helps me sleep at night knowing that Ann the Man will burn in hell.

If you believe in any sort of hell, how can you not believe that Ann will go there for making up this kind of garbage about a man who lost three limbs for his country?

While we're at it, don't you think the SwiftLiars and Karl Rove and all the top Bushies will burn in hell, as well, for trying to besmirch the military service of a man who volunteered to be a moving target as a Swiftboat commander, performed his duties while under fire, brought his whole crew home safe and alive and was wounded for his country?

I think there is a special circle of hell for all these bastards (and bitches)

[SomeYoungGuy]

10. From http://www.georgiaencyclopedia.org/nge/Article.jsp?id=h-2781

"A year into his master's program, Cleland entered the army and was eventually deployed to Vietnam as a captain. On April 8, 1968, as Cleland was returning to his barracks, a grenade was accidentally dropped. Cleland reacted quickly by falling upon it, no doubt saving the lives of several soldiers. He lost both his legs and his right hand in the explosion."

[SomeYoungGuy]

11. This from http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Max-Cleland

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Max-Cleland

"In 1968, while in Vietnam, in an incident unrelated to either of his medals, Cleland was severely wounded while attempting to pick up a grenade dropped by another soldier. He lost both legs and part of one arm in the accident."

[Minimus]

12. has she been listening to that bitch Coulter

she was trying to say Max was drinking when he picked up the grenade, something to that effect.

here is a good article on the incident

snip
>
As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of "ownership" went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not.

http://www.buzzflash.com/contributors/04/02/con04074.html

[JVS]

13. That's the dumbest shit I've ever heard. There are easier ways to...

injure yourself than dropping explosives into your own pants!

[ComerPerro]

14. Someone who believes that Ann Coulter is attractive

will believe anything.

[SomeYoungGuy]

15. Boston Globe, Aug. 3, 1997

"Finally, the battle at Khe Sanh was over. Cleland, 25 years old, and two members of his team were now ordered to set up a radio relay station at the division assembly area, 15 miles away. The three gathered antennas, radios and a generator and made the 15-minute helicopter trip east. After unloading the equipment, Cleland climbed back into the helicopter for the ride back. But at the last minute, he decided to stay and have a beer with some friends. As the helicopter was lifting off, he shouted to the pilot that he was staying behind and jumped several feet to the ground.

Cleland hunched over to avoid the whirring blades and ran. Turning to face the helicopter, he caught sight of a grenade on the ground where the chopper had perched. It must be mine, he thought, moving toward it. He reached for it with his right arm just as it exploded, slamming him back and irreparably altering his plans for a bright, shining future."

[papau]

23. Guy in front of Cleland jumped - and dropped grenade - so were they

both staying behind for that beer?

Sometimes the media does not print the whole story.

[ClassWarrior]

17. Tell her to PROVE IT.

I don't care HOW ignorant of the Internet she is. If she's going to pass around serious - not to mention patently ridiculous - charges like this, she can get her skanky old ass to a library and back up her fool mouth.

24.

[July]

18. Tell her about Bob Dole.

His own account of a war injury says that he thinks a grenade he threw hit a tree and bounced back at him.

I read it here, and I think it came from a biography or autobiography -- maybe someone has the reference?

[Trahurn]

24. Have Heard The Same Despicable Story

Yes I have heard the same sick story before. Republicans just cannot deal with the reality that military personnel are not all republican. They go absolutely ape shit when a democrat displays bravery and heroism or suffers a devastating injury in combat. They have this "hard-wired" mind set that only republicans can be in the military.
I had a pleasant chat with some unknown individual on line who was republican and I related some of my military experience being stationed at a SAC base during the cold war..ect....ect. He was very pleased and appeared impressed at the things I told him. When the fact that I was a democrat became known that was the end of the conversation and his parting shot was I was a disgrace to my uniform.
Republicans only want republicans to have the admiration and respect of sacrifice during war.
It never ceases to amaze me what extent the republicans will go to to verbally defecate on anyone but republican military personnel.
If two soldiers were captured and spent the identical period of time as prisoners of war in the same prison experience identical hardships republicans would still insist that only the republican had a hard time of it and only a republican sacrificed for his country.
I do not know what it takes to manufacture these kind of people that would go to such lengths as the republicans go to to disrespect, minimize and criticize pain and sacrifice for ones country during time of war that they did about Kerry and Cleland.
Someone asked my sometime ago why I hated republicans so much. Case closed.