MSNBC's Lawrence O'Donnell savages Bush's "childish" faith

[BurtWorm]

According to the Daily Howler. (I missed this excitement myself, goddamnit.)


http://www.dailyhowler.com/


“Yes, it’s extremely childish,” O’Donnell said. “He anthropomorphizes God and attributes to human motivations, human desires, human aspirations, all these things that you and I, Pat, in Catholic education were taught not to do very, very specifically.” Just like that, the pair of pundits were debating whether God has desires:
BUCHANAN: Do you believe that God wills that all men be saved?
O’DONNELL: No, I do not.

BUCHANAN: Do you believe God desires that all men be saved?

O’DONNELL: No, I don’t believe that God has desires. What we were taught in Catholic education is God’s ways are unknowable. The essence of the Catholic God is that God works in mysterious ways. George W. Bush doesn’t think God works in mysterious ways. George W. Bush thinks he knows what God wants, and George W. Bush then says, I am here to execute what God wants.

On Monday, the debate entered Day 3, with Scarborough himself presiding. Cable conservative Shmuley Boteach was on hand, prepared to dispense scripted cant (Boteach is a rabbi). But land o’ goshen! The times were a-changed! O’Donnell even fought against that!
BOTEACH (10/17/04): People like Lawrence O‘Donnell—and Lawrence is a fine man, I know him...believe that religion is actually a lobotomy. It makes you into a moron, that the fact that Bush is stupid, it’s actually because he has this faith, which makes him silly enough to see the world in black and white. I would rather have us dumb men of faith, who see that Bush is good and Saddam is evil. I would rather have us than have a guy like Kerry, that couldn’t get it right in Vietnam, saying that our troops were evil and the communists were good.
O’DONNELL: What does this have to do with prayer? What does this have to do with religion? What are you talking about?

BOTEACH: What I’m talking about is that religion gives you the vision to know what‘s right. What Bush prayed for before that war was can I remove a tyrant, so that he doesn’t gas Kurdish children in their homes?

O’DONNELL: “Gives you the vision to know what is right.” Did religion give him the X-ray vision to see the weapons of mass destruction? What did he pray for that was right?

And O’Donnell, piling heresy high atop outrage, even slammed Democratic pols, men whom he knows personally. “I think the Kerry references to God are phony. I think every reference Bill Clinton ever made to God was phony. I think every reference Jimmy Carter made to God was political and phony and designed to trick people who believe in God to believe in them.” At this point, O’Donnell’s host restored order. “Well, you know what?” he said. “ We will be right back. I will tell you what—that’s inflammatory language for a lot of us in Scarborough Country!”

[Wickerman]

1. I am saddened he questioned Jimmy Carter's faith

that went over the top of the dung heap he had already created.

[flordehinojos]

6. I am too, but when you get so much of bush's phony ,"I know God and I am

here to speak for God", you grasp at last straws in an act of desperation. Now, I don't know the person who questioned Carter's faith, or anything about him .... but I do know that whenever I now hear the words "I am a Christian" ... or "my christian values" ... or whatever they want to attach the words Christ, God, or Christian to ... my entire soul says, "I don't even want to hear it"!

[BurtWorm]

10. I agree. O'Donnell's remarks provided long-overdue balance

in the national dialogue on politics and faith. We've been too tolerant of nontolerance of points of view like this. And what he's saying is fair, I think, which is that politicians who proclaim their religiosity are bullshitters. There's a political point to any proclamation of religiosity in the context of a campaign or an "official" statement, and that point is, Thou shalt view me as one of thou, ye Christians.

[GreenPartyVoter]

16. There is no way Carter's faith is false. Habitat for Humanity

is the fruit of his beliefs.

[BurtWorm]

17. I'll play devil's advocate, so to speak.

One could argue that though Carter's faith may be utterly sincere, his profession of it in his capacity as a politician or president is questionable. Profession of faith in the public realm is necessarily charged. Consider an atheist--an utterly moral atheist, in other words, a Jimmy Carter in all respects but without faith in God--and ask yourself if he or she would be able to say "I am an atheist" in the context of a political campaign. Of he or she could say those words, but at what cost. If, on the otherhand, someone professes to be a person of faith, is there a cost? That may have been the argument O'Donnell was making--or the question he was asking--in not so many words.

[GreenPartyVoter]

22. Of course it's charged and questionable, and personally I don't

believe that it should even be going on. Separation of church and state.

But I still maintain that looking at Carter's life one can see a pattern of behavior that suggests sincerity about his spiritual beliefs.

[BurtWorm]

24. I think most people would agree he's sincerely religious.

But it can and should be argued that even professions of sincere religious belief have zero place in the public sphere. Which isn't to say they should be banned, but they should also be open to criticism in the free marketplace of ideas.

[Southern Patriot]

26. Given Carter's activities I think that there is little doubt that his

faith is sincere and absolutely divorced from any public/political considerations.

I don't think that you can make the same statement about either Kerry or Bush.

[BurtWorm]

28. Americans should not have any sacred cows among their politicians

George Washington and Jimmy Carter included. Our right to be critical of our politicians, on the other hand, ought to be sacred.

[Bake]

34. To the contrary, Carter's faith informed his liberalism.

But Carter never made a big deal out of it. He was very humble about his faith. If asked, he would discuss it, but he never threw it out there in the political sense.

Bake

[Southern Patriot]

36. We agree.

What I meant was that I think that he eschewed using his faith as a political advantage.

Yes, it's integral to his belief system on which he based his political philosophy but he never cheapened it to a political prop.

[Lerkfish]

40. I think the difference is that Carter's character is influenced by

his religion, but his decisions were not guided by religious dogma.

with Bush, he (IMHO) maniacally believes he is God's messenger, and that God works through him as he preemptively invades countries he lied about in the first place.

Children at our church have gone to Carter's sunday school service and helped him with habitat for humanity. He is a great human being, apart from his religion, as well as a humble christian, apart from his presidency.

[BurtWorm]

41. I don't at all dispute that Jimmy Carter is a good man

or that his faith is sincere and contributory to his decency. Not at all. I admire Carter as a human being and as an ex-president. But if a politician makes it known what his faith is--and as I recall, Carter did make "born again" part of the American political lexicon--then he's made his faith fair game for criticism. I don't criticize his faith, but I think it's legitimate to suggest he may have exploited it for political purposes. No one ever lost votes while apologizing for being Christian or born again.

[DeadHead67]

18. "By their FRUITS you will know them". . . . .

. . .Let's see, Carter: International Peace negotiator, ongoing 'hands-on' worker for Habitat for Humanity, and God only knows how many quiet or secret acts of Christian charity! Bush: Zeal for executions when Gov. of Texas, a willful and senseless war that has killed and will continue to kill thousands, oppressing the poor, the sick, the elderly, and the powerless, etc. etc.. . . . Can anyone think of anything Bush has done that even vaguely resembles an act of christian charity?

[aquart]

38. Well, political campaign statements of faith mostly are phony.

You're not allowed to express any of the grey areas of belief in your heart.

Jimmy Carter has what I consider true religion, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have acres of heresy wandering thru his very good mind.

[BurtWorm]

39. Not to mention lust in his very good heart.

;-)

[aquart]

46. Indeed.

[Sparkly]

2. "saying that our troops were evil and the communists were good"

I guess their God has no problem with lying like rugs. All the "Godly" men tithe at least 10% of their words to lying about John Kerry.

[PurityOfEssence]

42. A classic example of an outrage that should be squashed on the spot

Kerry didn't praise the Viet Cong. He also did not condemn all American soldiers; he even praised the sacrifices of the many and said very good things about our troops in that war. Somehow, that's never related.

When this crap comes up, it has to be swatted down immediately and resoundingly.

[Killarney]

3. Wow, I wish I watched that one!

[Bandit]

4. " that the fact that Bush is stupid,"

He is stating a fact and then saying it is good. We need stupid men who see the world in black and white. :crazy: And there are people out there going yes that is right. I would even bet Bush* agrees with this guy.

[michigandem2]

5. i caught that and Odonnel was great

and they kept discussing how it was over for Kerry cuz of that fucking gallup poll....so clueless..so he was putting them in their place about that too..

[wickywom]

7. I was not raised Catholic...

but from watching my inlaws .. their self righteousness is so overwhelming sometimes you would think they received a personal memo from the Almighty
They don't act like " god's ways are unknowable"..

or maybe they do that's why they rely so heavily on the conclusions of the religious hierarchy ?

Good grief, if he doesn't know what God desires why pass judgment on a man like Jimmy Carter -- good deeds, A-hole, good deeds ever hear of them?

Who is this O'Donnell anyway, never heard of him?.

[Jacobin]

8. This Botox guy is a fucking Rabbi?

Or perhaps, more properly a Likudnick..:eyes:

Go Larry!! Tell it!!

Tell it!!

PUHLEEZE let's not lose what our forefathers founded this country on!! Puhleeze, let's be a bit enlightened and stop baying at the moon and reading fucking tea leaves to make policy.

[truthseeker1]

9. O'Donnell is my favorite pundit!

:bounce:
Especially when he's on the McLaughlin Group and trounces old Tony Blankley!

[wickywom]

15. I watch the McLaughlin group every week

what does he look like?

[Southern Patriot]

29. Like this

[wickywom]

47. I've really been digging him lately..

I thought I heard him say nice things about Carter's faith on the mcL. group?

[truthseeker1]

32. He sits between Eleanor Clift and John M.

He is usually smiling with a twinkle in his eye most of the time. I'm always relieved when he's in the guest chair instead of Mort Zuckerman or one of those other RW a-holes.

[Southern Patriot]

19. Where has O'Donnell been?

I wish that MSNBC would give him his own show.

At least that's what I would have said before seeing him guest host on Scar Country the other day.

I'd caught the beginning of his anti-simpleton-religious rampage on an earlier show when Pat B. was guest-hosting. In that instance, he really handed some GOP spinner his head. (Can't remember the guy's name... Terry something who edits "Human Affairs" or something.)

Then I saw Larry O'D guest-host a segment with the head of Rock the Vote, Kennedy ex-MTV-VJ, some young reactionary RW singer, AND ANN COULTER.

I think that anyone who gives Coulter a public forum should be prosecuted just as if they dumped the AIDS virus into the community water supply. Larry O'D specifically requested that Coulter remain for the segment.

Larry lost me right there. I think that he's bizarrely twisted, actually. To some degree I agree and applaud his attempt to bring sophistication to the religion in political debate. But his pandering to Coulter just sunk his stock with me.

[BurtWorm]

20. I hate that fucker Terry something who edits human events

He looks like evil winger slime.

[Southern Patriot]

23. His high pitched voice is unmistakeable.

Larry O'D took him to the wood pile and just whacked the hell out of him.

At one point Larry O'D said, approximately, "You just think that lesbian sex is evil and you don't want to admit that Cheney's daughter has lesbian sex all the time."

Then Larry O'D repeated the statement several times emphasizing "lesbian sex" more each time.

Try it with any RW prude. The reaction is phenomenal.

[BurtWorm]

25. That is hilarious! I wish I'd seen that!

A lot of these slimeballs are overdue to get taken to the woodshed on talk TV.

[truthseeker1]

30. He did something similar on the McLaughlin Group last week

He just kept driving the point that RWers think the word "lesbian" is bad and they can't deal with the thought of it in the public forum.

[mrgorth]

11. 2 things

1) I can't believe I ever thought Boteach had an ounce of sense. I don't even think he's a Sharonista. He's just a shameless self promoter. He'd argue on Scumborough about the consistency of mazzo balls if he thought it would get him more face time.

2) Catholics come in all shades too and a lot really do get it. Unfortunately, old school catholicism is easy to take very black/white also. Sounds like O'Donnell has a good head on his shoulders.

[ProfessorPlum]

12. Bush is a clanging gong

and a clashing cymbal.

[realFedUp]

13. oops, I just posted this too....

good for Lawrence!

[Robbie67]

14. I don't have a problem with Kerry's musings about his faith

because he's one of the few politicians to say that faith is only for himself as he makes decisions he needs to make as a government official and leader. This actually made me like Kerry.

KERRY: I respect their views. I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many.

I believe that I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith.

I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. And that's why I support that.

Now, I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.

The president has never said whether or not he would do that. But we know from the people he's tried to appoint to the court he wants to.

I will not. I will defend the right of Roe v. Wade.

Now, with respect to religion, you know, as I said, I grew up a Catholic. I was an altar boy. I know that throughout my life this has made a difference to me.

And as President Kennedy said when he ran for president, he said, "I'm not running to be a Catholic president. I'm running to be a president who happens to be Catholic. "

My faith affects everything that I do, in truth. There's a great passage of the Bible that says, "What does it mean, my brother, to say you have faith if there are no deeds? Faith without works is dead. "

And I think that everything you do in public life has to be guided by your faith, affected by your faith, but without transferring it in any official way to other people.

That's why I fight against poverty. That's why I fight to clean up the environment and protect this earth.

That's why I fight for equality and justice. All of those things come out of that fundamental teaching and belief of faith.

But I know this, that President Kennedy in his inaugural address told all of us that here on Earth, God's work must truly be our own. And that's what we have to -- I think that's the test of public service.

As a non-believer, I'll give Kerry a lot of credit for what he says here.

[progressivebydesign]

21. Did I read that George and Laura PRAYED on Scarborough's show??

I saw that in those wierd FReeper posts last night.. that they actually PRAYED on the guys's show? Now.. someone tell me HOW our current administration is ANY different than the religious zealots Bush is proclaiming to be bad for liberty? I mean.. here we are, attacking other countries, fighting religious zealots, and supposedly spreading freedom... and in our own country, the religious rightwing christians are taking over our government and media???!!!!??

[eataTREE]

27. Bible study time, kids.

"And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

"And in praying do not heap up empty phrases as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their many words.

Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

-- Matthew 6:5-8 (RSV)

[BurtWorm]

31. Amen, brother!

And welcome to DU! :toast:

[Southern Patriot]

33. More about Larry O'Donnell

Lawrence O'Donnell

http://www.harrywalker.com/speakers_template.cfm?Spea_ID=353&SubcatID=162

Lawrence O'Donnell, Jr. is a writer and producer of the NBC Emmy Award winning drama, The West Wing. The episode he co-wrote on the death penalty won the 2000 Christopher Award and the 2000 Humanitas Prize for writing that "communicate(s) those values which most enrich the human person."

Mr. O'Donnell is also MSNBC's senior political analyst and a panelist on The McLaughlin Group.

During the election year 2000, Mr. O'Donnell was a contributing editor of New York Magazine with a column on national politics.

From 1993 through 1995, Mr. O'Donnell was the Democratic Chief of Staff of the United States Senate Committee on Finance. The Committee has jurisdiction over legislation involving taxation, international trade, health care, Social Security, Welfare, and other income security programs.

In 1992, Mr. O'Donnell was Chief of Staff of the United States Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works.

From 1989 until 1992, Mr. O'Donnell served as Senior Advisor to Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan. He began his professional association with Senator Moynihan as Director of Communications in the Senator's 1988 re-election campaign.

A writer prior to entering politics and government, Mr. O'Donnell published the book Deadly Force (1983), which was adapted as a CBS movie in 1986. He has written essays and articles for several publications including The New York Times, New York Magazine, People, Spy, and Boston Magazine.

Mr. O'Donnell has also appeared on The Today Show, Good Morning America, Nightline, Charlie Rose Show, and several other programs. Suffolk University awarded Mr. O'Donnell an honorary degree, Doctor of Humane Letters, in 2001.

Born in Boston, Massachusetts, Mr. O'Donnell is a graduate of Harvard College (Class of 1976). He lives in Los Angeles.

[aquart]

35. Boteach is one of mine. Can I strangle him?

God, what a mindless twit! How to ruin the myth of the clever Jew in one television appearance.

[Southern Patriot]

37. LOL nfm

nfm

[The Magistrate]

43. It Really Is Time, Mr. W

To call the fundamentalists on their nonesense.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[arwalden]

44. Outstanding!! Bush's Christian Beliefs Are Rather Juvenile and Naive...

... and I wish Kerry would keep religion out of his speeches and policies as well.

-- Allen

[LiberalCat]

45. Boteach must believe it's better to blow up children than to...

"gas Kurdish children in their homes".

Personally, I don't see the difference. How can he possibly defend bush?