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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 09:42 PM
Original message
Hard headed Howard
the pros and cons of Howard...read the whole article

Hard-Headed Howard
Dean can win, with a little tough love.
By William Saletan
Posted Tuesday, Jan. 13, 2004, at 4:28 PM PT

Is Howard Dean electable? Should you vote for him? My answers, after watching him for a year, are: 1) theoretically, yes; and 2) tentatively, no.

I'm not one of those pundits who thinks Dean is too liberal or too Yankee, that he's another George McGovern or Michael Dukakis. The reason pundits analyze elections in such simple terms is that we can't handle the complexity of real life. To us, liberalism is a set of policies. To most voters, it's an attitude. Liberals are condescending. Liberals are naive. Liberals have no moral anchor. Liberals are weak in the face of evil.

Dean doesn't fit that mold. McGovern talked like a wimp; Dukakis talked like a drone. Dean talks like a real person and a leader. That's why he, unlike McGovern and Dukakis, began to catch fire two years before the election, months before his vaunted Internet operation took off. When he has the stage to himself, he's the best speaker in this race. (This Dec. 28 speech in Iowa is a fine example.) He's deft, cogent, and forceful. He makes people believe. You can't teach that.

more....

http://slate.msn.com/id/2093858/
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 10:38 PM
Response to Original message
1. Religion and family values are Lieberman's strong suit.
Then there's the religion problem. Dean's about as religious as I am, which is to say, he isn't. It's been hilarious watching him fake it: getting his Testaments mixed up, saying his favorite New Testament book is "anything in the Gospels," repackaging his anti-Washington message as a tribute to Jesus. He sounds like a college student fulfilling a distribution requirement in a subject he can't stand. Supposedly Dean told the Boston Globe a couple of weeks ago that he's "a committed believer in Jesus Christ." But Dean never used those words. "Jesus" this, "Christ" that, but always in a historical context, and never "Jesus Christ." Why not? It's pretty clear if you read Dean's accounts of his idea of Christianity. He admires Jesus' teachings but doesn't really think Jesus was the son of God.


I totally agree, which is why I switched to Lieberman.
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robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Dunno if the Lieberman thingy is a joke , but here's a text for his
Clinton pic at the website:

Lieberman's statement into the Senate record:
 I have been deeply disappointed and angered by this President's conduct--that which is covered in the Articles, and the more personal misbehavior that is not--and like all of us here, I have struggled uncomfortably for more than a year with how to respond to it. President Clinton engaged in an extramarital sexual relationship with a young White House employee in the Oval Office, which, though consensual, was irresponsible and immoral, and thus raised serious questions about his judgment and his respect for the high office he holds. He then made false or misleading statements about that relationship to the American people, to a Federal district court judge in a civil deposition, and to a Federal grand jury; in so doing, he betrayed not only his family but the public's trust, and undermined his moral authority and public credibility.
****
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. Joe prevented the democratic party from being tarred as immoral
With his brave stand against the presidents behavior.



It's moral leadership like that which will destroy Bush.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. amazing
how quick people forget
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killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:38 PM
Response to Reply #5
9. Dated Dean, Married Lieberman
It's a common occurance as people face the reality of what is at stake in election 2004.
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #4
11. I'm dyin' here. . .
When did they stop tarring the Democrats as "immoral". Because I definitely missed that memo.

You are really crackin' me up here.

eileen from OH
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 10:51 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. joltin joe
is now your man??
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oasis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. Joe's moved up above Dean on my list. The internet, once a boon to Dean
in terms of fundraising, may become his downfall as the information keeps rolling out.
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Sean Reynolds Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
6. Joe's got a soft heart.
He cares about the black population because he's black at heart. Joe is a FINE leader and Howard Dean is not. Dean needs to take his far left liberal ideology and get it out. THIS is Joe's time now!

JOE IN '04!

YEAH!
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 12:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. kick for joe
thanks!!
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-13-04 11:34 PM
Response to Original message
8. anyone read the article?
deanial syndrome?
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. Yes. Dean's tax position is the kicker.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2093858/

Finally, there's the tax problem. Wes Clark, John Edwards, John Kerry, Joe Lieberman, and Dennis Kucinich propose to repeal the Bush tax cuts for the rich but keep the Bush tax cuts that went to the middle class. (Some would offer additional tax cuts.) Dean and Dick Gephardt propose to repeal all the Bush tax cuts. the Dean-Gephardt position would lose the election, plain and simple. Three months ago, the Democracy Corps, a Democratic polling outfit, asked respondents, in separate samples, to choose a) between keeping the whole Bush tax cut and repealing it; and b) between keeping the whole Bush tax cut and repealing just the part that went to the richest 1 percent of Americans. The Clark-Edwards-Kerry-Lieberman-Kucinich position beat the Bush position 55 percent to 37 percent. The Bush position beat the Dean-Gephardt position 49 percent to 44 percent.

We saw how the raise-your-taxes argument ended in 1984, with Mondale's crushing defeat. This year, we're seeing it again. I've watched Dean defend his position in numerous debates over the past four months. Here's how it goes every time: Dean's opponents say he'd raise taxes on the middle class. He says there was no middle-class tax cut. His opponents point out that, in fact, there was. Dean says it all went to the rich. Then he says that in order to balance the budget, he needs to take back the part that went to the middle class. Then he says the tax cut was really a "tax" because it led to higher local property taxes, college tuitions, and health-insurance premiums. If you buy that definition of "tax," you're probably one of the 15 Americans who bought Clinton's definition of "is."

In Sunday's debate, Dean said that after repealing Bush's middle-class tax cuts, he would introduce his own, but not until he balanced the federal budget—which, by his reckoning, wouldn't come until well into his second term. According to the Washington Post, Dean's aides promised a vague interim tax reform plan "dramatic enough to keep the shape of the tax system front-and-center in the general election." A Dean aide told the New York Times Dean would announce this magic plan "after President Bush unveiled his budget." That means after Feb. 2. By that time, Iowa, New Hampshire, South Carolina, Missouri, Arizona, and four other states will have voted. If things go according to plan, Dean will have effectively locked up the nomination. He's asking you to nominate him first in the hope that afterward he'll somehow get voters to accept a bitter pill they've never accepted in a presidential election.

I say it's the other way around. In a democracy, the candidate is supposed to satisfy you before he gets your vote. Dean has tremendous virtues as a nominee, and his flaws are fixable. But at least two of those flaws are demonstrably lethal, and Dean has refused to fix them. If he doesn't fix them by the time your state votes, my advice is to vote against him. It's the only way he'll learn.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Dean's deceptions will be the downfall of the Dem party if he
gets the nomination.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-14-04 11:33 AM
Response to Original message
12. kick for last night n/t
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