So if Deans so unelectable, why is he in the lead and why all the attacks?

[shance]

So many of the attacks are so similar to Gore, so divisive, initiated to create doubt and designed to inflate voter cynicism and scrutiny.

There are things all of us could stir and simmer, and saute on any person, but the truth was said in a quote I read.

It went something like this:

The people creating unnecessary accusations, the Republicans, and those at the DLC and DNC, arent afraid of Deans electability at all,

but what they are afraid of is Dean not returning their phone calls.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

1. If that were the real problem with Dean we'd have nothing to worry about

but of course, it's just a red herring.

The real problem is that Dean is dishonest, misrepresents himself one day as one thing, another day as something else.

Then there is his record as governor. If I were a Republican looking for a Democrat I could support, I'd probably like his record. But in reality, I'm a liberal Democrat. I'm not looking for someone who governs like a Republican even though he has a D next to his name.

(When Dean became governor) they (liberal Democrats) were all thinking, oh we got a Democrat back in the governor's office. And all of the sudden they find Howard Dean's worse on spending (than Snelling). The state was headed into a recession at the time. And Snelling before he died, he and Ralph Wright cut a deal on raising the income taxes and (inaud.) the deficit--a few years of austerity. Howard stuck with the plan. And as Dick McCormack (Democratic Senator from Windsor) will tell you of the meeting where he (Dean) met with the Democratic Caucus and told them then, and this might have been before, when he was still lieutenant governor, and told the Democratic Senators, you're never going to win because people don't trust you with their money. None of your great and lofty goals and plans and aspirations will ever be achieved because people don't trust Democrats with their money. We got to prove it to 'em. And that was key. I mean his political enemies for the first three terms were Democrats at the State House, not Republicans. Republicans loved his budgets.
--Peter Freyne, veteran Vermont political reporter
http://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/dean/dean0702/freyneint.html

[w4rma]

2. spin. (n/t)

[Feanorcurufinwe]

9. Nice substantive response.

In fact I'm having trouble figuring out which of the many points you made I should respond to... oh that's right, you didn't make any.

[bitchkitty]

44. I thought it was pretty clear -

you do know what spin means?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

48. Yes, it was clear.

One word posts aren't exactly stimulating or informative. Lets say Dean does win the nomination - is that going to be the answer whenever Bush criticizes him?

If the poster wants to make the case that Peter Freyne was 'spinning' when he gave this interview or that I am somehow 'spinning' by quoting it -- I'd love to hear that argument. This after all is a discussion board...

[shance]

4. How humorous you mention honesty, which candidate are you supporting?

You want to paint him as some dishonest politician? Thats good.

So HOW MANY TIMES WAS HE ELECTED GOVERNOR?

Id love to see your Peter Freyne run for something and be re-elected four times.

What are you so afraid of? Change?

[beaconess]

6. He was elected repeatedly

just like all of those Washington Insiders he rails against.

So, why does the fact that Dean was elected over and over again by his constituents a badge of honor proving he deserves to go to the White House while the fact that other politicians have been elected over and over again by their constituents make them Washington Insiders unfit to govern?

Oh, and by the way. If you look at the election results, you'll see that Dean was elected by smaller and smaller margins each time and, in his last race, just barely scraped together a simple majority and narrowly avoided a runoff. Apparently, the more the people of Vermont saw of him the less they liked him.

For a guy whose only political credential is his elections in Vermont, this is not a very comforting statistic, is it?

[Maddy McCall]

11. Here are Dean's declining election numbers in Vermont

Supports what you said, beaconess:

Elected Governor in 1992 with 75% of the vote after serving as Lieutenant Governor, he was re-elected every two years (Vermont is one of the few states that still has a two year Governor's term) with 68.69%; 70.50%; 55.66% and 50.45%.

[beaconess]

13. Obviously, he got out while the gettin' was good

And hopes that the rest of the country will be so dazzled by his empty rhetoric, they won't look at his record before carrying off to the White House.

[bearfartinthewoods]

55. yeah...and it almost worked

[AP]

17. And left them with a Republican governor. So...

...what was that about convincing them they can trust you with their money?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. Dean the career politician... or is he the 'regular guy outsider'

Dean the liberal... or is he the conservative... the centrist?

Dean who is stridently pro-Israel... or is he praising Hamas?

Dean who insists we must raise taxes on the middle class to balance the budget... or should we cut taxes?

Dean who says we can't wage war preemptively... or we can?

Dean who wants to be all things to all people. And a lot of people seem to be buying it.

But in fact, you can fool some of the people some of the time, you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.

[shance]

14. Yeah, Vermont - the beacon of political insidership

Next.....

[Cassandra]

59. His last race...

was affected by his position on the very liberal issue of gay civil unions. He had to keep spending down early on because the Repukes (and the legislature) had left him with a huge deficit (sound familiar?). As much as we would like to, it's not always a good idea to spend money you don't have, particularly in a state where you don't have that many industries (or corporations to tax).
So he balances the budget and creates a reserve fund, and you hate him for it.
And he signs civil unions into law and risks virtually all his political capital on that and you call him a loser.
He sounds more principled and thoughtful than most. You know why his Internet operation is the most successful? Because he wasn't afraid of allowing his supporters some freedom to come up with campaign ideas from the bottom up. Most of the other candidates see the Internet as something to disseminate ideas to the followers top down. Do you want a daddy or do you want a leader who respects those he's leading?

[sandnsea]

19. He was honest in Vermont

If he'd be the same candidate he was then and tell the truth about his really policies, I wouldn't have as big a problem with him. He doesn't. On anything.

And you bet people are afraid, we're afraid A. Howard won't get elected and we'll have 4 more years of Bush B. Howard will humiliate the Democratic Party to such an extent it'll take another 8 years to recover C. By that time there won't be elections D. If he somehow manages to get elected, he'll do the polar opposite of what Democrats want anyway.

I've never seen such a con job since Jimmy Swaggert and Jim Baker, I swear to god.

[beaconess]

23. Don't forget the very real likelihood that he'll drag down the Congress

and Senate as well, resulting in, among other things, a filibuster-proof Senate that would guarantee Bush unfettered power to stack the federal courts with lifetime appointees who will shape our laws for the next generation.

You bet I'm scared.

[sandnsea]

31. Thanks for cheering me up

I had never actually thought of that scenario. My god you're right. Not even able to fillibuster. That would be a nightmare.

[sandnsea]

3. I'm 46, married with kids and broke

I'm not worried about anybody returning my phone calls, except the phone company to make sure they don't shut it off.

When somebody like me tells you Dean is the biggest phony this party has ever produced, it's because it's what I feel to the core of my being.

So go ahead and amuse yourself with your ridiculous DLC, DNC excuses. Dean isn't winning because the majority of Democrats are just like me and they know a phony when they see one too.

And when you have the money, endorsements and media that Dean has had, he ought to be winning. Not holding on to a slim lead by a thread.

[shance]

5. But sandnsea.....Dean IS winning......

And Kerry? Good guy but who are you kidding on establishment??

And my ridiculous DNC, DLC excuses?

You say you are broke with kids, etc and yet you want to overlook the DNC and DLC, who havent exactly been looking out for individuals like you lately.

Something doesnt fit here.....

[slinkerwink]

7. *nods* you're right about something not fitting in here

and it's us Dean supporters.

[sandnsea]

16. Yep, it is

Upper income yuppies and their college kids. Don't really give a shit about Dean's actual record because they don't need any of his programs anyway.

[slinkerwink]

40. I'm not an upper-income yuppie......stop stereotyping us

my mother isn't an upper-income yuppie either. She works for the government and I'm at college on scholarship.

[sandnsea]

15. No, he isn't

He's had every advantage and he isn't moving at all. He just stays stuck. It isn't relevant whether Clark or Edwards or Kerry is moving up, the point is, it's not Dean. And he has all the advantages and still can't move up.

And Dean is the most DLC of them all. He stood to the right of the DLC during the 90's. He is the exact opposite of the kind of Democrat I want in office. His record obviously doesn't matter to his die-hard supporters, but it matters to me. I don't want his brand of Democrat. I know what it is, it sucks.

Give me a real Democrat any day. Kerry, Gephardt, Edwards. Maybe even Clark, I don't know.

But NOT Howard Dean.

[shance]

20. You keep dreamin Sand.....

I cant believe some of the stuff you are attempting to pawn off as true. So, I guess if you just write something than its automatically a fact?

What you are saying is insulting and blatantly untrue.

And I guess you dont get called on it, so you just keep churning the stuff and stewing the pot.

Amazing.....

[sandnsea]

26. What's not true?

Dean has tons of money. Dean's gotten all the Washington Establishment endorsements. Dean's gotten a free ride from the media for months, up until a couple weeks ago. Not true??

Not true that Dean has fallen in the polls since December and has barely budged since then? Not true?

Dean didn't support the Medicare bill Clinton was fighting? He didn't support NAFTA? He didn't write letters to Congress supporting Yucca Mtn? He didn't supporting logging on the Champion Land deal? He didn't say we should have the death penalty because people get out on technicalities? He didn't cut funding to legal aid because most of them are guilty anyway? He didn't appoint ski executives to the land planning board?

He's not the kind of Democrat I want. Not by a long, long, long shot.

[bitchkitty]

45. Now that's a blatant falsehood -

"Dean's gotten a free ride from the media for months..."

On which planet? I would suggest that you read the following article:

http://salon.com/news/feature/2004/01/13/dean_media/index.html

An excellent summation of media coverage of Dean so far.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sandnsea]

29. Rebut

That's what a debate is all about. Don't just label me a smearer and tell me I'm lying. That means you've got nothing of substance to say, doesn't say anything about what I've said. You think my facts are wrong, prove me wrong.

[Joe the Revelator]

30. If these are such inacuracies...

then defend them and prove that they or wrong. Don't whine and insult the messenger.

[shance]

34. What? To broad sweeping generalizations?

You first. :)

[Joe the Revelator]

36. You know what i was reffering to...

sorry if my language was too broad...



Not true that Dean has fallen in the polls since December and has barely budged since then? Not true?

Dean didn't support the Medicare bill Clinton was fighting? He didn't support NAFTA? He didn't write letters to Congress supporting Yucca Mtn? He didn't supporting logging on the Champion Land deal? He didn't say we should have the death penalty because people get out on technicalities? He didn't cut funding to legal aid because most of them are guilty anyway? He didn't appoint ski executives to the land planning board?

can you refute any of those claims?

[shance]

47. These are good questions I dont have answers for. I will look into it tho

That I will do.

Thanks for bringing them up.

[bearfartinthewoods]

52. oh......shall i enter a new tactic in the dean team/s non-responsive

responses.

now...anyone who has issue with dean is a DU sabateur...LOL.

if you see lies...refute them, if you can?

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AP]

25. Exploiting fear, using anger, and elevating personality above policy is

NOT the best way to fight the very real threat of fascism America faces.

Making the campaign about that shit is like an invitation to fascism.

FDR knew as much.

[bearfartinthewoods]

53. the other day, i read them on one of the AA threads

i swear it was just like listening to the local pubbies, talking about how wrong the program is. these are liberals? this is the problem with people attracted to a movement instead of the party or a philosopy.

[liberalmike27]

58. Dean, Every Advantage???

I've got to take exception to that comment, Dean has been constantly harangued and pounded by the media. Think for a second, can you think of anything Dean has done in his state that is positive? Yet he was reelected five times. Surely the voters in his liberal state must've liked something he did, don't you think.

No, truly I don't know what you've been watching, but I've not seen a person attacked so constantly by the media since Al Gore in 2000. I think the difference is, Al Gore was dancing like a puppet to their tune, which they then turned around and attacked again. Funny, they attacked the reinvention inspired by themselves. What really pisses the media off, and by the way is as a rich-corporate media that wants someone like Kerry, Lieberman, Clark, or Gephardt, all of whom are already bought and paid for, to get the nomination, is that Dean won't dance to their tune, their puppet strings are severed with him. But the negative stream wouldn't exactly be what I'd characterize as "a free ride." Unless you are talking a free ride to the bottom, where they want to put him.

NAFTA: Dean has said repeatedly, one of the few things that has escaped above the din of media-negativity, that he did support NAFTA initially, as his border state profits from the extra trade, which in fact happened. As a policy for the country, he is seeing that the irreversible trend, and any new trade agreements need to be amended. He said we need to trade with partners with similar labor, minimum wage, worker safety, and environmental laws. This is in line with George Soros, and others who speak of globalization. Trading with "like" partners, doesn't drive the price of labor down in this country, while trading with tremendously poor countries with weak governments (like ours in the last two decades) causes a rush to the bottom of wages, and doesn't even help the country who gets our jobs.

There is so much slander of Dean in this thread, that it is hard to address it all, and I'm beginning to wonder if the instigator isn't one of the six, or seven figure television pundits. But truly, Dean will say what he thinks, and often these things are true, but truths that the media has carefully suppressed. Saddam's capture didn't make America safer, not only was Iraq not a threat, but it is pr oven now that they weren't. The reasons for the war were wrong, and invalid. Just after Dean's much panned statement about Saddam, jets were escorting planes, what few weren't canceled, and the terror alert was raised to orange. Dean was vindicated on this count.

You spoke of his money advantage. It isn't so important how much money he has, though sour-grapes for your candidate (Kucinich, perhaps?)not resonating well, and not having any money themselves shows through, but who gave Dean the money. Is Dean holding $1000 a plate dinners, like Clark, or getting huge corporate contributions like the other Washington insiders? No, he gets the money from a lot of people, like myself. I contributed $25 which isn't much, but I hope like other small-contributors, that he will address some of my concerns, like affordable health-care, raising the living-wage, and exploring alternative energy sources, and creating good jobs for Americans, rather than leaving it to chance, all the positions he takes that never get through to the real people of America.

Dean is the man that the corporatist-fascist media is afraid of, not because anger is bad, but they know that anger is just the thing that might just get a bunch of Democrats out to vote, who've given up on the sickening process, we see exemplified in the media now, trashing Democrats, and painting Republicans as walk-on-water perfect.

Just take a pen, and the next time you watch CNN, jot down the negative things they say, and the positives they list, doing the same for all the candidates. If that doesn't convince you that a media-smear campaign is on, you can't handle the truth.

[ochazuke]

8. It's politics

You can always tell who the front runner is by looking at who is attacking whom. The attackee is the front runner! Now, when the attackee responds with attacks of his own, you know that the attacks on the original attackee are working.

This is a general rule. It has nothing to do with the electability of the attackee.

Another thing that electability has nothing to do with: being in the lead, especially when there are four or five other major candidates. The lead candidate may be compleatly unacceptable to 60% of the party.

In the '04 race, Dean seems to have the lead with less than a majority. If the guys who come in like fifth and sixth place will do us the favor of dropping out, we can see if Dean can get an outright majority.

The next few weeks will be pretty interesting!

[beaconess]

10. Hmmm - interesting analysis

If Dean wins, it's because the people have spoken and their will has been carried out. If someone else wins, it's because the people are being led around by the nose by the DLC and DNC.

Funny how the will of the people can only be carried out if a majority of people vote for Dean. If a majority of people don't vote for Dean, the will of the people has been thwarted.

You guys are a piece of work.

[shance]

18. Gotta watch the black and white thinking Beaconess...getcha every time

No I think its you guys who are a piece of work, who care more about bringing Dean down, than actually supporting all the candidates.

[AP]

24. Some people honestly believe Dean is not a real Democrat

and would lose if nominated, and be a Pyrrhic victory if he wins (since we'll have missed the opportunity to elect a much better president).

Your post implies that there's an imperitive to support all the candidates. There isn't.

Are you supporting Joe?

[Feanorcurufinwe]

38. Well said

"not a real Democrat, would lose if nominated, and be a Pyrrhic victory if he wins"


Dean hits the Trifecta.

[sandnsea]

28. Nobody is picking on poor little Dean

If the man has a message that the entire Democratic Party believes in, he'll win. We are not all agents of the DLC for chrissake. And Democrats are Democrats. None of these candidates all supported the exact same things anyway. There is no way to say there's some DLC conspiracy when the very candidates who supposedly are agents of the DLC are so totally different. Gephardt and Kerry and Lieberman are totally different on a variety of issues.

It's a CAMPAIGN STRATEGY. There's NO WASHINGTON CONSPIRACY. You are not involved in a magical movement that's going to change the nation. There will not be a Dean blog from the White House where Dean emails you and asks you to vote on what we should do about studying the mating habits of salmon.

You better know exactly what your man is going to do and the only way to know that is by what he's done. THAT is what you're voting for and NOTHING else.

[shance]

32. Why dont you run for office since youre such the back seat candidate?

You know it all sand. You have all the answers. Go on. Knock yourself out.

[AP]

33. Yeah. Sand's got the power. Didn't you know?

Are you really criticizing Sand for having a firmly held and well-thought-out opinion?

Really?

[shance]

35. Cmon AP - generalizations and factless statements are well thought out?

As you said,

Really?

[AP]

37. Name one "factless statement"

[shance]

39. Not a problem.

Here ya go Mr. Dean lover.....

<<And Dean is the most DLC of them all. He stood to the right of the DLC during the 90's. >>

Such bullshit.

Why you guys hate a good candidate so much is so disheartening to me. But take heart, you guys are driving off the good ones around here, so you all can eat each other up.

[AP]

41. That's an opinion. And I, for one, am comfortable with the facts that...

...argument is based upon.

He was very friendly to big business as governor and was for Nafta. Those are the DLC's big issues.

[shance]

43. Fair enough. Those things have concerned me as well,

however, Dean has changed his stance on NAFTA due to the outsourcing and neglect of workers here in the US, and what I believe, which is an opinion but more importantly an observation is that Dean has become more informed on the problems and conflicts of interest happening at a much larger level in big business and has been very vocal on the corruption stemming from special interests and lobbyists being so involved in our government today.

I have heard Edwards speak about this as well. I dont know much about Edwards history and voting record regarding big business and NAFTA. I ask you an honest question. What has his record shown?

Also, if sandnsea issues opinions, thats fine. However to issue opinions as if they are fact, is not right and not an honest evaluation of Dean.

[AP]

61. Edwards ran in '98 as being against NAFTA.

Dan Schorr said on NPR last spring or summer that Edwards is not a favorite of the DLC's because he has voted against the globalism-a-go-go bills they support when those bills jeopardized NC jobs.

As for Sand, Sand issues oppionions like opinions, and supports those opinions with references to the text. Sand does what we should all be doing.

[Democratista]

21. You're comparing the Dem primary to a general election

n/t

[Adjoran]

42. Harry Truman said it best

"If you can't take the heat - stay out of the kitchen!"

I'm uncommitted ABB and will support the nominee whoever wins.

I had narrowed my choices two months ago to Gephardt, Dean, Clark, and Kerry, without writing Edwards completely off. Edwards has worked his way back into consideration now, he's had the best last six weeks of any of the candidates IMHO.

Dean's stock is going down for me. He has made statements that ask for trouble. He attacked the Washington candidates as a group for a whole year, but once he took a solid lead he cried foul when they targeted him. It's a political campaign, for crying out loud.

I think sandnsea fairly summarized the reservations, whether or not every particular is correct. I want to win. We have long odds of taking back the Senate or House, the Presidency is our best shot at stopping a repub locomotive for the next two years at least.

As an observer, I have been less impressed with the Dean supporters here (with a few notable exceptions) than with those of any other candidate. Most of them don't engage debate on policies or records, they tend to complain from the start, "Oh another Dean-bashing thread" and dismiss every criticism. That isn't the way to win in November. We will have to engage and convince independents and repubs that our candidate will be a big improvement over Bush.

Calling experienced elected leaders "Bush-lite" doesn't win over any of their supporters.

Dean may well be our nominee, and I will support and work for his election if he is. But if his core supporters approach the general election with the attitude of entitlement I've seen here, we don't win.

[shance]

46. Wow. Thats a new one. How have we acted with entitlement?

Dean began with 1% approval/support rating within the Democratic party. He is now the frontrunner.

He has been engaged in the most successful grassroots campaign ever, and yes by doing so, has earned his way to gaining an endorsement from Al Gore and Bill Bradlely, which mainstream media disdainfully diminish, as apparently you seem to do as well.

So wheres the entitlement? Has he not earned it?

Hes not a Senator or Representative with immediate ties to public officials like some of the other candidates?

No I dont feel entitled.

I feel attacked, but I dont feel entitled.

For me, as someone who has been a Republican, and involved in Democratic politics, various PACs, and events including the DNC and multiple fundraisers, I am amazed at the level of classism and blindsided fear to follow the establishment because THEY KNOW BEST (even though they wont initiate the necessary changes to save our nation, much less our planet) that clouds alot of individuals vision in this country.

No, Deans not perfect. However, Dean provides enough of a balance I believe to unify more Americans and bring the country back together.

[JNelson6563]

49. Supporters of others look like fools

when they claim Dean unelectable. haha Doesn't say much for the candidates he is beating, does it?

haha I love it.

Julie

[stickdog]

50. Good question. (nt)

[LuminousX]

51. The less-than-pluralities think the plurality are idiots.

[Snivi Yllom]

54. media whores

at work

plus the establishment does not want Dean to take their power away. It's quite simple.

[Mairead]

56. "If Dean's so unelectable, why is he in the lead"

George McGovern had an enormously powerful machine. It captured the nomination for him in an unstoppable blitzkrieg effort (quite a disturbing experience for those who supported other candidates and were left standing flatfooted with our mouths hanging open).

However, his machine wasn't big enough or powerful enough to get him the election. His people tended to be university-age, very good at working Robert's Rules but uninterested in or incapable of explaining in a persuasive way what McG was offering. They got him the nomination by going on the muscle, but they lost him the election by being too few, too arrogant, and too ignorant.

Too many of you guys who support Dean just don't want to know. Like McG's supporters, you are totally convinced that if you just shout at us a little louder we'll fall into line. You don't want to hear that we don't trust Dean, that we don't like his Bush-Lite policies, that we are appalled by his record.

Don't you think most of us want a wider choice of candidates? What's the downside of having more good choices, fachrissake?

Try to get a grip on it: we're not rejecting Dean just to get up your nose, we're rejecting Dean because we believe his history, his policies, and his demeanor all say he's a disaster on legs who is where he is now because the corporate media has been inflating him.

Yes, we know you don't want to hear about 'corporate media' but it's the truth all the same. They used a variation on a standard, sleazy business practice: when you open a new store, you sell at rock-bottom profit until your competitors are forced out of business (amazingly, it's still illegal to sell at no profit or a loss to make the forcing-out happen quicker). At that point, you raise your prices because now you have captive customers who've nowhere else to turn. WalMart does it all the time.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

63. Thanks. Well said. n/t

[QC]

64. Excellent point.

It's amazing how many people here seem not to know the difference between a primary and a general election and to have forgotten that Goldwater, Mondale, and Dukakis all ran away with their parties' nominations, only to get slaughtered in the GE.

[markburgess]

57. maybe the attacks are to illustrate why he is not electable?

If candidates are pointing out reasons Dean is not qualified, then they are legitimate concerns. They can only offer their argument. We then decide if we agree.

[David Dunham]

60. Dean's Iowa Lead is Melting

Zogby tracking poll has Dean losing a full 4 points over the last day, from 28 to 24.

[markburgess]

62. "Dean is unelectable, Kucinich is unelectable, Kerry is unelectable..."

"Why, the only one running who is electable is the only one who has never been elected!"

L:crazy: L