I am sorry, but something needs to be said about last night.

[Skinner]

I am stunned by the behavior of some members last night. I'm not so much angry as sad. I think we have really hit a new low. Maybe even rock bottom. I think this behavior showed a special level of contempt for this message board, and for the other members of this message board.

There is no other way to describe it, other than to say it was deliberate, orchestrated disruption.

And if that wasn't bad enough, they chose to pull this stunt on an evening when we were obviously having serious problems with our servers (problems which are likely to continue today). Everyone on the board was already frustrated. The poor performance made it extremely difficult for the moderators to do their jobs. And the admins were occupied trying to fix the server problems. The appearance is that you were taking advantage of the situation. I am shaking my head in disbelief about the whole thing.

It is apparent to me that this small group of people gave themselves permission to be disruptive, because they have convinced themselves that their opponents are doing worse. That is just sad. I have certainly seen plenty of crap from all sides of the candidate debates, but I have never seen the type of deliberate disruption which I have seen from some of you in the past few days. In your efforts to compete with your opponents, you have blown way past them. It is just sad. What ever happened to trying to be better than our opponents?

I am sure that there are some of you who will take no responsiblity for your own actions. You have convinced yourselves that ultimately I am responsible, or that ultimately your opponents are responsible, for your actions. This is folly. Only *YOU* are resopnsible for your actions.

No doubt, some of you are going to stubbornly cling to your belief that you were totally justified. For you, there is no hope. But I believe that there are some among you, and among your friends, who are capable of regret, and capable of remorse. I believe that there are some of you who can feel a shred of shame, and will take this as an opportunity to try to do better. For that reason, the admins have chosen not to ban any of you, even though it is clear that we are more than justified in doing so. I hope that some of you will see it in your hearts to take the olive branch which we are handing you.

That's all I have to say.

Skinner
DU Admin

[maddezmom]

1. kick n/t

[JI7]

2. good points

.

[woo me with science]

3. what happened? nm

[vi5]

5. I was just going to ask that....

Based on what Skinner said I have some suspicions as to which camp was involved but I'll keep that to myself.

[Ilsa]

6. I dunno for sure.

I saw one flame-bait thread with no replies. I wanted to reply for the first time since i was a member with a big "FU", but decided I didn't want to get banned. Furthermore, the board was so slow, I never got back on last night, so I calmed down and went to bed.

Probably started by a freeper.

[cryofan]

13. I am confused, too. I saw nothing that bad last night

This morning there were a few bogus Lieberman spam threads, but they did not seem all that bad.....

[LuminousX]

40. I'm still at a loss as to why Lieberman's GLBT stance is disruptive

I understand the point that is being made and it may have been carried too far, but fundamentally all we saw was a capitulation of Dean supporters to those who post negative comments about Dean and his wife.

I have a feeling many of us (myself definitely included) are not long for DU after this primary as more and more of my generic posts are now being alerted, I expect to be tombstoned in a few months. Oddly enough, before the policy, I don't believe I ever had a problem.

The fact that several people choose to 'push Lieberman' yesterday is considered disruptive and a show of contempt is truly bothersome. Perception is reality, though, and if it is perceived as disruptive and contemptuous, no argument is going to change that.

[Bonobo]

75. I think that's called "intellectual dishonesty"

Those who "pushed" lieberman were not Lieberman supporters and they gave that false impression as well as clogging up the board which made it difficult to read for real content. I think you are being intentionally obtuse.

[Clark Can WIN]

93. Thank you skepty cal

It seems some of the most egregious offenders, the least mature and the most vile will continue to refuse to see how they weaken and belittle the entire group. Maybe some of them are Freepers and Limbaughs minions. Be it so or not, they are doing his work well.

[stickdog]

100. Clogging up the GD-2004 board -- making it difficult to read for content?

Stop it. You folks are killing me!

[Catch22Dem]

4. I only came around for a few minutes last night

Obviously I missed something big. There were like 5 pro-Lieberman threads which I found a bit odd, but I'm in the middle of a good book, so I didn't stick around.

I think the whole atmosphere around here has gotten really nasty. It's to the point where I either don't come around any more or I come here and get pissed off and leave after 10 minutes. It's sad because I used to come here for hours an talk to people whose company I thoroughly enjoyed. Unfortunately most of those people are gone. Hopefully it gets better once the nominee is chosen.

[Sperk]

11. I'm still here catch22dem! Don't give up on us baby!

I dont' know what happened last night...but I usually just ignore posts that bother me. Am I too permissive? :-)

[DarkPhenyx]

7. Makes me glad I was playing video games last night. n/t

[Rowdyboy]

8. I never quite caught the "humor" in what was going on

Pooor excuse for adult behavior.

[jonnyblitz]

9. I couldn't even really get on DU until late. It was too slow.

So I am clueless :shrug:

[IADEMO2004]

10. Repost every hour for a day please

When the food fight is done everyone is dirty

[maxanne]

12. You are correct

Skinner. EVERYONE is responsible for their actions.

I hope that EVERYONE takes some time to do some examining. Without condoning anyone's behavior, my question is simple. Are the disruptors of whom you speak the only ones who should be feeling some remorse?

Administrators, moderators, and posters here at DU all need to look at their behavior and actions in recent weeks.

thank you,
maxanne

[Lefta Dissenter]

19. Maxanne

I believe the point of the post was for people to assess their own behavior, NOT to continue to point fingers!

Unbelievable... :shrug:

[maxanne]

22. if you bothered

to read my post, you'd see I advocate just that. For everyone to assess their own behavior. From Skinner on down to the rankest newcomer.

Even you.

[muchacho]

14. Shame

Glade I missed it...

[stickdog]

15. Lighten up, Francis.

I apologize for thinking it was creative and funny.

[Clark Can WIN]

99. I don't know about Francis

But I felt that the members who engaged in this behaviour took immaturity to extreme new lows.

They devalued Democratic Underground, it's members, and reflected poorly on progressives everywhere.

It was disrespectful and contemptuous to Skinner, the volunteers, and the moderators who were trying to make this a decent place for debate. It was the kind of bottom crawler, septic dwelling behavior one usually expects from an AOL or Yahoo board.

[Padraig18]

16. Seems like I picked a good night to call NH voters.

Kinda glad I missed 'it' and, furthermore, I have NO interest in even knowing what 'it' was... :shrug:

[Born_a_Democrat]

17. could someone please explain what this is all about?

I know several people have asked already but I haven't seen an answer so I figured I would ask as well...

[rucky]

31. It's kinda like when John Rocker made all those offensive comments

still don't know what he said, because it would be offensive to repeat them.

Buncha Dean supporters changed their avatars and became Joe Lieberman converts for the night. It was pretty lame, but I couldn't resist running a Lieberman poll, that got quickly - and deservingly - nuked. Ashamed to have made a contribution.

The lounge is the place to blow off steam.

[imhotep]

18. what was it?

I missed it.

[Dookus]

20. Skinner...

thanks for speaking out on this.

You're a better man than I am. I would've banned the participants. It was such an obvious attack against your site, its members, and its staff.

Good luck - I don't know if I can ever visit GD'04 again. I suspect no matter what rules you come up with, the jerks will try to work around it.

Shake a tail-feather.

[stickdog]

24. "The horror. The horror."

I hope that one day you'll recover from the trauma.

[Dookus]

55. and that is exactly

the attitude that Skinner is talking about. Are you proud of yourself for pissing on this thread? It's the most conciliatory response from Skinner I could've imagined. And you mock it. What compels you to act this way?

[stickdog]

60. I'm sorry.

It's just that I'm allergic to extremely large doses of manufactured outrage and humorless sanctimony.

[Dookus]

68. My outrage isn't manufactured....

it's well-earned. A band of liars thought it was "fun" to bring down this forum. Evidently, you think it was sorta cool, too.
Why don't you PM Skinner and tell him exactly how humorless he is. Or why don't you crack a joke and start a new thread about how you converted to Lieberman?

You won't do it. Because there are consequences - and it's much easier to be smug and arrogant when there's no price to pay.

I still maintain hope that such behavior will be punished. I think it will happen soon.

[stickdog]

71. OK. I get it now. Man, you really had me going there!

I haven't seen anyone stay in character so well since Andy Kaufman.

[adadem]

21. Please elaborate

I tried several times last evening and the pages wouldn't even load. What happened? Though I guess we shouldn't know...sounds bad.

[illini]

23. I Agree Skinner.

All the fighting amongst ourselves is so counter productive. We need unity in this community if we are going to vote Shrubie out of office. :smoke:

[La_Serpiente]

25. for those of you interested

Let me just say that what happened was more childish than malicious. Even the teenagers on this board show more decorum, maturity, and class than those that engaged in this act.

They were just a really big nuisance, plain and simple.

[muchacho]

26. scale

I think we can all agree (those of us not blinded by the cult of personality that is) that all the candidates have something to be desired. They can all be painted as too/not quite/nowhere near progressive enough, whatever...

My take is that any candidate anointed to be the Dem candidate is ethically suspect by default. No perfectly progressive candidate would be selected.

They're all corrupt, it's just a matter of scale...

[Padraig18]

27. As a Dean supporter, I absolutely condemn what happened last night.

There was NO excuse for the disruption, and I can only offer my own apologies to the Admins, Mods and members of DU, with separate apologies to the Lieberman supporters. I'm so disgusted by what i now know about last night that I'm seriously contemplating activating my long-dormant ignore list.

Sorry, folks; please remember that VERY FEW Dean supporters did the postings.

[Tatiana]

29. I don't think it was this candidate supporter v. that candidate supporter

kinda thing...

What really saddened me, as a long-time poster and user of this forum, was that this behavior was exhibited by other long-time posters who definitely should know better.

[DancingBear]

32. I knew I could count on you

Padraig18,

You are surely the voice of moderation and decorum (well, most times, anyway :) ) on your side of the electoral aisle. I logged off DU early last night, and had an inkling of what was to come. Sadly, after reviewing pages this morning I now see what the issue was.

It was dissapointing, to put it mildly, and I know how much you must be pained by it - childish behavior is seen as such by most, save for those who refuse to see.

Thanks for speaking up and saying what needed to be said - I look forward to "battling" with you again.

Be well,

DB

[stickdog]

34. What is the big deal here? I came here late last night and saw some

funny pro-Lieberman parody posts.

I'm sure humor and creativity have been against the rules for a long time, and I understand that rules are rules.

But everybody is talking like some heinous crime was perpetrated.

Am I now supposed to feel ashamed for laughing at something funny? What am I missing here? I mean, you'd think someone compared Bush to Hitler or Wellstone had another memorial by the reaction on this thread.

[jonnyblitz]

37. THAT is what all this overwrought drama is about?

I thought something seriously horrendous happened. When people are purposefully vague one assumes the worst. People need to come and and say exactly what they are talking about.

[jonnyblitz]

38. THAT is what all this overwrought drama is about?

I thought something seriously horrendous happened. When people are purposefully vague one assumes the worst. People need to come out and say exactly what they are talking about.

[Padraig18]

39. The 'big deal' was this:

Everyone knew that DU was experiencing massive tech problems yesterday, and the very LAST thing any Admin or Mod needed to deal with was a juvenile flame fest. It wasn't the juvenile postings that were so bad, per se, it was the TIMING of them that couldn't have possibly been worse.

'Inconsiderate' is the nicest and most charitable word I can think of to describe last nights posting frenzy.

[stickdog]

47. But it wasn't a "flame fest" by any stretch of the imagination.

In fact, I can't think of another message board on the internet where a few parody postings would even so much as raise an eyebrow.

[Padraig18]

51. That misses the entire point!

I didn't use the words 'flame fest'. The problem, stated simply one more time, was the absolute boorish and juvenile nature of the behavior; the timing could not have been worse, and some who are less inclined to be charitable could even speculate that the timing was deliberate. It was an abuse of the hospitality we are all afforded here, and there is NO excuse for it--- at ALL.

[stickdog]

58. Sure you did. Just read your post. You wrote "juvenile flame fest."

And you are the one who is missing the point.

The "excuse" for the parody posts -- if one is really needed -- is that they were funny.

But from this thread and much of the reaction to it -- including yours -- one would think that Wellstone had another memorial!

[Cuban_Liberal]

81. He got it right.

I'm a police officer, and what I see in your response is typical of what I deal with every day: "...it's someone else's fault, he made me do it, you can't prove anything, nya, nya, nya...". Such behavior is quite the norm from someone caught red-handed doing something they ought not have done.

You do, in fact, miss the point entirely: last night's "Lieberman fest", whether a flame fest or not, was as disruptive as if it were one. Not only that, but as Padraig points out, the posters abused the hospitality afforded them by the DU Admins and staff at a moment that the site was already experiencing problems.

Parse the exact words of the rebuke as you will, but the disruptors have been adjudged by the majority of people responding here as 'guilty as charged'--- deal with it.

[stickdog]

97. Except I didn't do anything but laugh. And my point is simply that

the only thing anybody was "guilty" of was advancing an amusing parody.

I realize that it might have been against rule 17A or 18B, and I realize that humor is the the eye of the beholder. I'm not even arguing for leniency. I'm just adjudging that many of the reactions here have found a way to crank the sanctimony dial up to 11.

[TLM]

77. COme on there where way more Dean bashing threads...

that were nothing but flame fests... trying to claim Dean was a racist... BS rumors about evil Dean supporters f-ing with voters in NH... and I'm switching to candidate X because Dean sucks posts.


Why is it the Dean supporters parody posts of switching to lieberman that are beign treated like some horrific crime against DU?


I think those posts were a reaction to the bias seen here, and the reaction served to prove that point very effectivly. Any troll can roll in here from a link in the Clark blog and pretend to be a dean supporter who is converting to clark, with no problem.


Yet let someone announce a switch to lieberman over Clark and suddenly threads are locked? Those threads were no more disruptive or out of line than any of the dozens of theads that were allowed last night because they attacked Dean.

[Cuban_Liberal]

91. There was plenty of flame bait available last night.

I agree that it should all be dealt with in a similar manner. I no longer support the Clark campaign, but I would see no good purpose in posting anti-Clark threads, the sole purpose of which was to incite a flame war. I will happily discuss factual and policy matters regarding any candidate, but I will call 'bullshit', too, no matter who posted it.

I hope Principal Skinner does as he suggested, and broadens the rules to give the Mods more latitude to deal with the 'problem children' here at DU; it will benefit everyone here, in the long term.

[jonnyblitz]

49. well

I dont see how that is any different then any other unnecessary crap that was being posted over and over that could have been construed as a flamefest last night . thanks for responding to my post though paddy. :pals:


I am having one hell of a time today getting on and clicking on posts. the same as last night.

[Padraig18]

53. Hiyas, johnnyblitz!

One one point I agree with you: it's no worse per se than the other crap that routinely gets cranked out of the Rove-like SPAM machine and copied and pasted here under the guise of 'inforamtion'. The most egregious part of the action was the inconsiderate nature thereof; at a time when the Mods and Admins were working their arses off to try and resolve a massive server/IP issue, some cl;owns decided to fill the forum with sophomoric nonsense and the lowest sort of lampoons.

Pure and simple, it was an abuse of hospitality, and that pisses me off no matter who does it or what the subject matter is.

[jonnyblitz]

101. i understand

I am just reacting without all the info. I have been having problems getting on DU like I did last night to do my own research to form the correct opinion!

the abuse of hospitality thing is hard to disagree with.

[bicentennial_baby]

41. More like dozens

of threads and numerous thread-infiltrations, during a time when the Admin were very busy with the server/ISP issues, being to told to quit it and continuing for hours into the night. Infantile, bullshit behavior.

[Cooley Hurd]

96. Funny, but the timing was bad...

I thought the mass-Dean-to-Lieberman defection was a hoot, unfortunately, it happened at a time when DU2 was sickly.

"You can't stop the Joe-mentum." That's some funny stuff! It would've been funnier if it happened at a time when DU was running better...

[Duder]

28. I disagree Skinner

As a bystander, I saw it as providing some much needed levity from the usual "hate," "detest," "liar" and other more literal "gag" candidate threads. Unfortunately the majority of Americans do get their political information from comedy shows and while I'm not condoning the lampooning that occurred, I don't see it as any worse then the supporter of candidate A starting multiple hate-filled threads about candidate B not to inform, but out of spite. Perhaps it's not so bad sometimes, to be able to laugh at ourselves and to be made aware of our actions.

I agree totally with maxanne, EVERYONE is responsible for what has gone on , what is going on, and what will go on here.
I also do agree with you Skinner, we ALL need to do better.

[ludwigb]

80. I agree with you Duder

The posts last night gave me a much needed belly laugh. There wasn't any malice involved, just fun.

[RainDog]

30. Thank you, Skinner

For creating this separate forum, as so many of us asked for for quite a while.

I have no idea what happened. Like many others, apparently, DU was almost impossible for me to read last night.

But even if I had been on DU, I would not have seen the things going on because I do not have to wade through candidate attacks in order to read actual news anymore.

I'm so sorry you administrators and moderators have to continue to deal with the nasty candidate threads. But I'm grateful that you've made it possible for others of us on this board to return to the sorts of posts which focus on the real problem: Bush.

[eileen from OH]

33. ARGH! There's all this talking about it but no one is saying what it was!

Was it the pro-Lieberman stuff that popped up? People pretending to like Lieberman? If so, I know I was suckered for awhile and responded before they got so outrageous I caught on.

eileen "clueless" in OH

[stickdog]

35. Yes, that's all it was. You can still read the posts on the next page.

It all seemed pretty harmless and amusing to me, but I guess my AGHAST meter must be broken or something.

[LuminousX]

42. It was the Lieberman stuff that is being considered disruptive

persona non gratis I guess.

[Duder]

48. This thread is kind of disruptive and divisive, imo.

Some of the complainants seem more disrespectful of Joe, than those that parodied him.

It doesn't take into consideration that it might have been a spontaneous action that snowballed and not deliberately planned to be inconvenient to the tech work. Some are given the false impression that the postings last night are responsible for the slowdown of the board.

It adds to the perception that some at DU are being coddled while others feel like they are being targeted.

[LuminousX]

56. I sort of agree

I didn't really realize the 'pro-Lieberman' factions were invading other threads. If their posts in those threads were off-topic, then I can see how that was disruptive.

I know I stumbled upon the 'occurence' last night and immediately saw this as an interesting and possibly valuable eruption. I figured that since the key Lieberman proponents were the ones starting the threads, they could easily be ignored or the threads hidden. I also didn't think it had anything to do with the technical disruption (though the technical disruption may have aided in people doing this as it was difficult to post anything normal last night so it may have sent people over the edge.)

I guess DU could use last night as a way to sweep away more Dean people since Dean supporters were those who were mainly converted to Lieberman yesterday.

What still gets me though is the rather straightforward thread regarding Lieberman's stance on GLBT issues got locked. Whether posted in jest or seriousness, it contained real information and actually got me to go to the Lieberman site to read up on it (mainly to verify what was posted was the truth) and found a lot of his positions to be a lot more moderate than portrayed on DU. He isn't my guy, but Joe before Wes.

[Dookus]

59. And you, sir,

were one of the main offenders. Your pretense of innocense is a joke.

You're lucky Skinner is a much nicer man than I am. The mere fact that you used this thread as a chance to piss on another candidate proves you're a ... well... I'm not allowed to say. If it were up to me, you'd be scouring the web for a new forum.

You were part of the cabal that took a bad day and made it horrible, for the admins. Pretending to be innocent is not only laughable, it's a slap in the face to Skinner, Elad and Earl.

I hope it was fun. You and your cohorts ruined their reputations here. Was it worth it?

[stickdog]

65. OK, now I get it. You are trying to out-parody yesterday's parodies.

You really had me going there!

[Dookus]

69. No, you don't get it at all...

there was a coordinated attack on DU yesterday. Because it was perptetrated by friensd of yours, you pretend that it was inconsequential. It wasn't. It caused a lot of grief for a lot of people.

You find it funny. The admins disagree. And the sad part, is it will lead to a crackdown on such behavior. and you'll complain about it.

[stickdog]

74. A "coordinated attack" causing "a lot of grief for a lot of people"?

Say it ain't so, Joe!

[TLM]

82. Why am I thinking of Eddie Haskle talking to Mrs Cleaver...

I see this image of how he would talk to her, telling her what she wants to hear and kissing her butt... only so that later he could get away with all the crap he pulled.


I wonder why that image in in my head all of a sudden.

[LuminousX]

76. Check again

My history is pretty clear and I stand by everything I said.

I found your 'outrage' to be fairly transparent after you gleefully said those who were doing this were going to (to use your crass words) 'be fucked.'

Well, that hasn't happened yet and if it does, I accept the consequences of my actions.

I find it interesting you lable me as one of the main disruptors. I am flattered.

BTW, which candidate did I 'piss on' in this thread?

[SadEagle]

63. This WAS a good opportunity to see an another perspective.

You know, besides the usual anti-Dean/anti-Clark/anti-other flamewars. The whole thing reminded me that Lieberman is sort of likeable, in a pathetic sort of a way, by likeable, at least when he is not making a fool out of himself, anyway. And no matter how disruptive it was, it lacked the mean-spiritedness of many of the "non-disruptive" posters, who not only act simplistically, but twist and distort beyond any plausible deniability. I certainly understand the frustration of admins, since they had their hands full (although, on the flip side, many people didn't even see anything); but it seems to me that some of the complaigners are being a tad hypocritical, and are not seeing themselves in the perpertators of the spoof.

[Duder]

67. You're right

I also noticed some of the 'positives' for Joe. One person that I believe was genuine seemed to come out of the closet and feel comfortable posting about Joe here for the first time. I didn't think it was fair either that the Joe GLBT thread was locked because there was nothing wrong with it and like yourself, I tend to perhaps unfairly ignore Joe. Since a Clark supporter complained about Joe postings, I guess it was decided by the mods to ban anything related to Joe.

We often see threads started about I switched from candidate A to candidate B that I usually view as possibly being fake. I got a chuckle out of it and will remember it as the night people became Joe at DU, which is not to say that they shouldn't be scolded and warned about any future disruptions. To me though, the Clark supporter that has consistently and repeatedly called for a banning is just as offensive to what should be the spirit of DU in that we're all part of the same party.

It's over now and so I guess it's time to go back to the negatives.
Watch your back LuminousX because I'd miss your postings.

[Bonobo]

78. The problem is:

"What still gets me though is the rather straightforward thread regarding Lieberman's stance on GLBT issues got locked. "

It was people such as yourself who are responsible for real news being buried. You acted foolishly and got all Lieberman threads locked through your actions. You folks made it difficult to tell what was real and I would say that we get enough misinformation from the "legitimate" news sources. We don't need that kind of obfuscation here too. Check yourself in the mirror, okay?

[LizW2]

44. I'm assuming you're all talking about the fake Lieberman invasion

But I, like others, took a break yesterday and missed the whole thing.

Maybe it's clueless of me, but what was so bad about this? Yes, pulling a big spam prank on a day of technical difficulties is bad, that I understand. Frankly, I don't see how these people were able to post at all. I couldn't.

But aside from that issue, why all the talk about this particular rule infraction? Why not just tombstone the perps and move on? Is that not a practical solution because of sock puppets? How many people were involved?

I guess, in light of some of the stuff I've seen posted in the past couple of weeks, I'm at a loss as to how this particular thing could be worthy of so much tsk-tsking.

:shrug:

[jonnyblitz]

52. i agree. seems like pick and choose outrage.

whatever.

[Cocoa]

79. it's the definition of "disruption"

it makes the forum less useful for what it's supposed to be for.

[Maine-i-acs]

36. I was a bit confused and put off last night!

I could not tell if it was disgruntled supporters of certain candidates, Freeper plants, or just someone trying to be funny.

Normally a thread like that pops up once in a while, but last night there were quite a few!

"Candidate X will lose in a landslide. We're doomed. Candidate Y is the only real choice."

I don't know how to out the Freeper plants - some at FR are bragging that they are plants with 1000+ posts and they slip under the radar.

Hopefully the true Democrats here will stay on message ... ABB!

And Unite against him for Pete's sake!

[Lefta Dissenter]

45. Maine,

you hit the nail on the head. It was NOT just the pseudo-Lieberman support - that was easy enough to ignore as just silly stuff, but virtually every thread that I started to read or participate in somehow got poisoned by people just interjecting nastiness. No purposeful discussion or debate, just garbage.

It was almost disorienting in a way. I felt like I was in a crowded room trying to have a conversation, and then every once in a while, someone would just slap my face, just for the hell of it. I ended up participating in very little discussion and just poked around to see what the hell was going on, and it just felt stinkier and stinkier.

Furthermore, I agree with whoever it was above who said that the pseudo-Lieberman stuff dishonored Lieberman's real supporters. They have just as much of a right to express their views here as anyone else, and shouldn't be mocked.

I appreciate Skinner and the others hanging in there and not just shutting the whole thing down out of frustration.

[TLM]

87. And do you feel the same way about those who inject anti-Dean venom

into threads?

I do not recall seeing you express much outrage at that, which has been going on for months. In fact even last night there were miltiple Dean bashing threads and multiple injections of anti-Dean venom into several threads.

[Lefta Dissenter]

94. Yes, as a matter of fact,

I have expressed both privately and publicly that I don't support that sort of posting. I certainly have reminded fellow-Clark supporters that we represent our candidate, and considering the high road he chooses to take, we should follow in his path.

I have congratulated other candidates' supporters on some of their great endorsements or poll showings, and would never think to enter into a Dean (or other) Celebration thread and post anti-Dean garbage.

I would hope that ALL of the DU members, Clark supporters included, would allow each group to enjoy their high-fives and pats on the back without having every conversation deteriorate into mud-slinging.

[hippiechick]

43. kick

:hippie:

[Padraig18]

46. Kick

[mmonk]

50. well

good to point the situations out. I was having too many problems logging in and posting to really participate (good thing). We all just need not post to flame baiting threads but try to stay mainly on legitimate discussions. Hope all computer issues are over soon.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

54. Thanks for your comments

It seems that any thread in this forum has the potential to turn into a subset of Dean supporters and a subset of Clark supporters (at least that's how they identify themselves) bashing each other with the same insults they've been using for months.

I avoid the threads that are immediately identifiable as Dean/Clark food fights, but when the brats hijack other threads to continue lobbing rotten tomatoes at one another, I'm ready to cyberwring a whole bunch of cybernecks.

The fake Lieberman supporters were evidently razzing a former Dean supporter who had changed allegiance. This is like the Heathers ganging up on a fellow student who dares to break the social code of their clique. To do so when the site was experiencing technical problems was a sign of arrogance and bad manners.

We all need to take a deep breath, realize who our common enemy is, and regain our ability to discuss candidates and tactics calmly and rationally without acting as if our emotional development stopped at age 13. (Apologies to any real 13-year-olds who are reading DU--they are typically wise beyond their years.)

[Rowdyboy]

57. It amazes me that some people respond to an olive branch

by taking offense that they were called on their juvenile behavior. I fully expected to awaken this morning and find a dozen or more of the more obnoxious posters banned. Had I been an administrator, I doubt I would have shown the compassion Skinner and the others did.

For God's sake, if you want to participate in an adult discussion, grow up.

Padraig, as usual, thank you for being a vote of common sense. I'm well aware that MOST Dean supporters neither participated nor condoned this immature outburst.

[bicentennial_baby]

64. Same here

I have to admit I'm a bit suprised by the reaction of some people to this thread. What happened last night obviously upset Skinner very much, but some seem to have no regard for that whatsoever. Eh, I should lower my expectations of my fellow DUers I guess.

And yes, props to Padraig, as always. :toast:

[jonnyblitz]

84. wow i guess i better read these threads

THey were that horrendous? My reluctance to join in the group moral outragefest is my lack of knowing what in hell EXACTLY everybody is talking about. All these vague allusions to things (wink wink) That is what bothers me about this whole thing!! If there is going to be a public condemnation like this PLEASE be specific otherwise those of us who are trying to piece this mystery together might not respond "correctly". I am annoyed by the vagueness of it all!! If a group of supporters are going to be publically called out and shamed don't be so cryptic and vague!! That is my personal view ! :hi:

[edzontar]

61. I guess I missed the big event....

Soundslike it was mostly intended to be funny...I'll go check and read them for myself...but it seems to me that humor DOES have a place in politics, and on message boards, as a general rule....

I think that everyone is taking things a little too seriously around here, sometimes....

[unfrigginreal]

62. Thanks for leaving this open to replies

Lord knows we haven't had enough witch hunts around here.

[bitchkitty]

66. My feelings on the subject:

I didn't take part in this, except to ask someone why it was so offensive to them that Lieberman gets support - to me, it was obvious from the outset that this was a parody. I didn't take part, but I understand what drove the posters last night.

Skinner, some of us feel extremely disenfranchised. I'm not speaking of the number of anti-Dean threads, I'm speaking of the anti-Dean-supporter bias of the mods that is, to me, obvious. Case in point: recently I had to alert three times on posts that called me a bitch and a liar. I was ignored. Nothing was done until I spoke with you about it. Oh, wait - something was done, my response to the ad hominem attack, a fairly benign reference to "typical of a Clark supporter" was deleted and I was warned. What kind of message is that supposed to send? After his post was finally deleted, the poster sent me a PM and said he wasn't using the word bitch in his subject line, "dear bitch" as a noun but as a verb. I recognized this as a taunt and chose not to reply, but neither did I bother to report it to the mods. What would be the point?

DemocraticUnderground has been more than just a bulletin board to me, it's been a refuge. I've come here feeling absolutely suicidal and left with hope in a heart I thought was irretrievably broken.

But there is no unity here now, only lots of astroturf and endless repetition of right wing talking points, or what will become right wing talking points, courtesy of the stop-Dean astroturfers. And to say that no bias exists is denial on a scale I have never seen before.

Just my 2 cents, although frankly, I don't know why I bother.

edited for clarity

[shance]

85. BK***you read my mail

I have experienced pretty much the same scenario and I have felt powerless on what to do about it.

At times I have felt like Im fighting off tigers around here and then Im attacked for defending Governor Dean or other candidates at times, and/or Im given a warning and other posters spewing the anti-whatever hate SEEM to walk away vindicated. Note the word seem. I dont know if thats true, but how can I know, when the mod who deleted my message is a mystery. Right now, theres no place for open discussion.

[edzontar]

70. OK-I'm back, and they seemed kinds funny and harmless to me...

Obvious satires, mixed perhaps with some genuine pro-Lieberman sentiments.

I couldn't get on for the longest time, and then was too busy...but my impression is that thie posts provided reaonably funny satires of the typical Clark "conversion" threads and the pro-defense, "electability" arguments that have I read on those numberless and repetitive posts.

Maybe I am missing something, but as someone who has been appalled by the adhominem attacks on Dean and other disruptions that have flooded this board in recent days, I don't really see this as any worse in kind--and in fact, found myself laughing at some of the sillier claims.

Maybe everyone should just take a deep breath.

[TLM]

89. Simple new rule.... If Dean supporters do it...

then it's evil, disruptive, disgusting, and you must demonstrate the requisite amount of outrage while praising the kind and compassionate way in which the moderators lock threads, delete posts, and ban long time posters for their inappropriate Dean support.


However if Clark or Kerry supporters do it, then it is perfectly acceptable and you should stop your rude and disruptive whining about it.

[Mr. McD]

72. Personally I found it quite entertaining

Bad timing prehaps with the server problems and all but still quite entertaining. :D

[Bonobo]

73. I don't see the names of any of the disruptors here yet

None of them are brave enough to show their faces after last nite I guess. As for me, I received 3 warnings from the mods for trying to respond to these disruptors and show them for what they were. I used no truly rude language, but pointed them out when they were obvious. For defending the board, I was admonished by the mods and now the perps get off scot free. I hope they are at least getting some warnings as well thru direct e-mails.

[edzontar]

83. This has happenned to me on several occassions

Usually when responding to Freepers disguised as Clark or other Dem candidate supporters.

The policies here regarding accusations, even in obvious cases are very (in my opinion, "too") strict.

To be safe, it is best just to hit "alert" and let things play out, or contact the mods via e-mail.

That said--it all looked rather funny and harmless to me.

[LuminousX]

86. Didn't you hear, I'm of the cabal

Though, if I were part of a cabal, I sure hope I would be doing something better than this.

I received a warning last night, oddly for directly saying Lieberman was diametrically opposed to Dean - in shorter more terse language that I didn't think was offensive or against board rules. I appealed it but haven't heard back.

I think the key lesson of last night is if you think someone is a disruptor, either hide the thread or ignore that person. That ignore feature works wonders.

[Bonobo]

90. In fact, I had you on ignore for part of last night

and tried to deal with it taht way, but I find it difficult to read threads when part of the conversation is left out. Sort of like listening to a person talking on the phone and trying to figure out what the other person is saying...
Anyway...I remember you from last night and I hope we can not be enemies. I am a former Deanie turned to Clark because of elcetability issues). I like Dean very much but I am only concerned ultimately with ABB (or I would be a Kucinich guy all the way!)

The reason it was hard last nite, for me, was that the site was slow and you cabal-members wouldn't engage in real honest discussions, but were just sticking to your sarcastic Lieberman thing. So it was hard to find real conversation, real content. Very frustrating when you are trying to engage in discussion. It felt sort of condescending.

I can forgive and forget, but it would be easier if you guys did not continue to belittle those of us who were bothered by the behavior last night. I simple apology would be nice. But please, please, please, cyt the smarmy sarcasm (not addressed to you, Luminous).

[LuminousX]

95. No sarcasm here

But as I also suggested, entire threads could be hidden, the whole thing could have been easily ignored if chosen. Now, I don't condone the invasion of other threads with off-topic posts, but even if this 'disruption' entered other threads and posted legitimate information regarding Lieberman -- well, I guess I don't understand. I think a lot of this is predicated upon motives and what the perceptions of the motives are.

In a fashion, I realized last night that we have to line up the candidates in some sort of order. I've never hidden <a href="http://www.livejournal.com/users/luminousx/59104.html#cutid1">my own personal quest</a> for the candidate to support. The one thing all the tomfoolery did was convince me that it is better to vote for a party stump than Clark. But Clark before Sharpton.

[Capn Sunshine]

88. My .02

While I wasn't online last night I just re-read the issues in question and as a long time DUer I didn't see any harm done.

Those complaining the loudest are equally guilty of similar , if not worse and far more damaging behavior.

I won't mention any names but leave it to the audience to guess which posters I'm referring to.

BTW Skinner, you have mail.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

92. I'm amazed at the level of forgiveness you are showing.

Why wasn't the judge at Traffic Court like you?

[A-Schwarzenegger]

98. Thank you for saying that.

It's gotta be a drag to work so hard at something
& have folks piss all over it. Sometimes funny's
not funny.

[NashVegas]

102. My Take

I didn't take part in the show, but being well aware of the situation and how it had been building, and having some of those same frustrations myself, I thought it was a creative showing in a tradition of the Diggers.