from Kos: Conflicted Evangelicals Could Cost Bush Votes

[Gabi Hayes]

Conservative Christians are still in his camp, but some are troubled by Iraq and other issues.


''BROOKFIELD, Wis. -- With their ardent, Bible-based opposition to abortion and gay marriage, evangelical Christians are a key target of the massive Republican get-out-the-vote drive heading into next week's election. Party leaders consider conservative Christians to be as near a lock for President Bush as any group can be.
But GOP strategists might want to have a chat with Tim Moore, an evangelical who teaches civics at a traditional Christian school near Milwaukee. He shares Bush's religious convictions, but says the president has lost his vote because of tax cuts for the wealthy and the administration's shifting rationales for invading Iraq.

"There's no way I'm going for Bush. That much I know," said Moore, 46. He remains undecided between Democratic Sen. John F. Kerry of Massachusetts and a third-party candidate.

Moore reflects a potential problem for Bush in Wisconsin and other closely contested states, where the GOP and conservative groups have invested heavily in turning out a record conservative Christian vote through mailings, voter guides, targeted phone calls and announcements by prominent evangelists such as Jerry Falwell and James Dobson aired on religious radio stations.''

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/2004/la-na-evangelicals27oct27,0,2472235.story?coll=la-home-headlines

of interest, both because this will hopefully tear into the troglodyte, hardcore nutjob base, much as they claim that Bush is going to get DOUBLE the black vote (ha and HA!), but that Brookfield, as well as Elm Grove, are big money burbs, just west of Milwaukee (my brother lives in Elm Grove, which is heavily repug).

will be seeing him today and ask him if he notices any sort of reaction similar to that in the article

one can only hope

EDIT: didn't realize it was on Truthout already...been away for awhile

[blondeatlast]

1. Read that on Truthout, too. Great article.

At least some of them are seeing they hypocrisy in a pro-life, pro-war stance; it's good to know they don't drink the Roveberry Kool-Aid.

They may not vote for Kerry, but they may abstain on the presidential vote, or better yet, not vote at all.

When you can't count on a normally rock-solid base, you gotta be soiling your trousers.

[MockSwede]

3. Lying Ass Joke

What's the difference between Vietnam and Iraq?

Bush had a plan to get out of Vietnam!

[blondeatlast]

8. Huh? How does that relate to my post or the one I replied to?

:wtf:

[MockSwede]

12. Lying

Says what he needs to keep them happy and voting to keep him in office.

[mark11727]

2. Conversation between the GOP and a Fundie...

GOP: What do you think about George W. Bush?

FUNDIE: Well, the economy's in the dumper, the river's got more arsenic than a rat trap, and half the neighborhood's in Iraq.

GOP: George W. Bush is against abortion and gay marriage.

FUNDIE: He's got MY vote. Praise Jeebus.

[Gabi Hayes]

4. you got it.....Tom Frank's book just about says it all, WRT to your

jape

book lenght explanation of why the low level morans constantly vote against their own economic interests, which are all that really matter, when it comes down to it

when they're all out living in the back seats of their SUVs, jobless, penniless, hopeless, how much do you think they're going to care about the selfish hedonists of the world like Mary Cheney?

reality is going to come knocking HARD at their door very soon, no matter who 'wins', in the form of huge gasoline/natural gas/heating oil increases, interest rate hikes, housing bubble burst (causing those second/third mortgage defaults to PUT them into their SUVs, which, of course, heavily financed, when repossesed, will put them on a steam grate outside, say the US Treasury bldg, which is right next to the White House..... a convenient spot from which to mourn the loss of everything those idiots held so dear)

point is, Bush has fucked things up SO completely, that no matter who 'wins', we all lose

hope I'm wrong, but.....

[LoZoccolo]

5. Well, that article's about how that's not always true.

So I'd like it to be if they come to this board, they don't get bombarded with words like "fundie" and "Jeebus" and leave. Please do your part.

[Gabi Hayes]

6. right, except I don't think you'll see anybody from that demographic

at this board

can you imagine anyone at this point who hasn't made up their "mind" yet?

I know the pugs are hoping the OBL scam will sway some chowderheads, but those people are hopeless to begin with, and prolly would have pulled the switch for Bush anyway, and weren't really undecided anyway

what do you think?

[LoZoccolo]

7. I do all the time.

I'm sure you've seen religion threads here. Besides, there is no advantage to you to making fun of the central figure of a religion that a lot of people hold here other than whatever self-satisfied emotional import it might have.

[blondeatlast]

11. One more time; the article says that some CAN indeed see past

the lies and bullshit of W.

Tell me, what is Mr. Moore conflicted about (and I don't mean Michael, I mean the guy referenced in the article)?

[blondeatlast]

10. It can't be done; I've tried. And at least one person replying didn't

read the article at all.

Sickening.

[mark11727]

13. I think the article is great, actually...

What I was trying to emphasize is how many Christians will give their vote to Bush strictly on his stance on two topics (gay marriage and abortion), without really thinking about the bigger picture (environment, economy, our international relations, and the current war). I known that MOST people WILL really think about the whole package, but my point was that that there are quite a few that simply WILL NOT.

No offense to any Christians out there, I'm a Catholic myself.

[chimp chump]

15. Your remarks....

...are dead on. On this matter of traditional Christian religion, many liberals simply don't get it. Literally. They don't understand Christianity, they know nothing about the Bible, they probably can't even tell you something as basic as the real differences between Catholics and Protestants. Let alone show any understanding of formal theology which divides the various denominations.

Many will say, "So what?". Well, there's the rub. Notice that John Kerry is making a very studied effort to show voters that he is from a Christian background and participated in a familial way as an altar boy. This is the sort of religious background with which millions are familiar and comfortable.

So, if John Kerry knows it's important to understand and connect with the Christian voting bloc(s), then why doesn't D.U.? The forum seems composed largely of unchurched people. And their aggressiveness and disrespect for people's religious views drives away exactly those voters that Democrats need to win in races at all levels.

It's just that simple.

I think that many here of atheist or agnostic outlook simply don't grasp that the vast majority of Americans are godfearing people, probably about 90%. And about 50%-60% practice their religion very regularly. That means daily prayer and reflection, acts of charity, and worship several times a week. Their religion is an integral part of their lives and is intertwined with family, community and their children.

D.U. can never increase its political influence much further unless it becomes more friendly and more welcoming to Christians. There are simply too many states where Christians are the decisive voting bloc. It's just as true of the Democrat party at large so D.U. is consistent here.

When you say something like 'praise jeebus' to Christian people, they're going to look at you like you kicked their dog or spat on their child. They're going to know you hate them and the peaceful ideals of the Christian religion. And if you want any of their votes, then you've got a problem of your own devising. Frankly, the gratuitous vulgarity and profanity on the forum should be severely restricted. It gives an impression of coarseness, of a lack of proper education in language arts.

It's not about whether you believe in Christianity or which theology you might subscribe to. You still need those Christian votes if you want to win elections. You need to be welcoming and you need to make people comfortable with who you are and let them know that you understand them and that you are comfortable with them. You need to respect them if you want their votes and they need to know you respect them.

I suspect that remarks like this just fly past some people. They simply don't get it because they have absolutely no religious background at all. But it is very important if you want to win elections. Or build up a huge internet political board.

As to your remarks about conservative Christians who do not like and do not want to vote for Bush, I know several. They don't like him, they never did. I think they'll be voting CP because Baldwin, a well-known Baptist, is the VP on the ticket. In this state, it won't matter anyway because Bush will take it. But they aren't going to vote for Bush again. And he won't be getting their votes in the national vote count even if he gets the state's electoral votes. So they won't grant him any legitimacy or mandate. And even that is a victory of sorts.

So this article rings very true to me in my area which is about as conservative and Christian as any place in America.

[blondeatlast]

9. I suggest you read the article carefully...

It indicates that some are terribly conflicted and may NOT vote for Bush.

[mark11727]

14. I know what you mean...

even though they support some of his positions, he's mucked things up to the point that that they cannot in good conscience give him their vote. I got it, I got it.

[Demfromct]

16. I too see the problem

These evangelicals are over stated. An evangelical is essentially a WASP who has a literal belief in the bible. That means creationism etc. If Bush is on office, then are we going to forget Darwin's book?

I know many presbyterians are troubled by the Iraq war. Southern Baptists will vote for BUsh hard beacuse they agreed with war. My parsih priest always says in private to me, never trust anyone who says they are born again.

atholic's? They will go for Kerry. Let me tell you something, as a practicing catholic, Kerry's answer during the debates resonated like you would not belive. If u weren't raised catholic, it is hard to explain how what it means to be Catholic.