Ok, seriously, help a girl out...

[huskerlaw]

Kerry's tax plan...how does the $200,000 plan NOT affect small businesses? I know it's been explained, but I'm drawing a blank. Quick!

[latebloomer]

1. I would if I could

but I don't know the particulars.

(Hated to see your plea hangin out there to dry)

[Misunderestimator]

2. It's important to realize that it's a ROLLBACK of the insane

decision that Bush and his Congress put through. Most small businesses do not net $200,000 profit after all expenses. So... simply... the Kerry plan does NOT affect most small businesses.

[DuaneBidoux]

3. It does to some degree...the stats show that about 90,000 people pay

that rate or higher and would pay more in taxes. But the money lost in revenue to the government has led to cuts in state funding and services that have actually COST jobs. An excellent resource to understand this is to go to economy.com (they are independent). They have said that a tax cut that goes to an upper income person generates .54 cents in growth for every $1.00 it costs the government. Aid to state budgets (instead of the tax cuts to the wealthy) would have generated $1.54 growth for every dollar it costs the government.

It comes down to something called velocity of money. If I have all the material goods I need and you give me another $20,000 in tax breaks because I earn $500,000 I'll bank it. The money stops right there. That same $500,000 distributed to 100s of people earning 20,000 a year will travel instantly through the economy, having an immediate and dramatic multiplier effect on growth.

The economy DID not have to be where it is. Bush could have done policies that would have helped everyone, but his tax cut was never about growth, it was about political payoff for the people who got him there.

[lanparty]

25. My uncle is an industrial painter !!!!

His company paints bridges mainly through the state. Well, when the state runs out of money, bridge projects get pushed back or cancelled. If there is less business, his bottom line is affected more severely than a paltry tax hike that can be ameliorated by paying his employees more money.

Democratic Plan = Everyone gets richer
Republican Plan = The Rich get Richer, the poor get poorer!!!!

[JimmyJazz]

4. Okay - help this girl out

why are youu posting several threads in an effort to find out information on Kerry's tax plan? Your "I'm debating a freeper, please help" thread wasn't enough? Misunderestimator pointed you to JohnKerry.com - so what exactly is your problem?

[linazelle]

18. I'm with you on this one it's glaringly obvious what's going on here nt

[zinsky]

Let Me Try to Illuminate

First, most small businesses do not have over $200,000 in TAXABLE income. That is what your income is after deductions. Probably less than 10%. If they make more than that, they probably aren't a small business.

Second, Kerry is not asking "small businesses" to pay more than they did five years ago. He is simply rolling back the unnecessary and unfunded tax cuts of Dimwit Bush.

Finally, when a conservative asks me why I support a progressive tax system, I either:

- Ask them if they are willing to pay more taxes, so the wealthy can pay less? That is the net effect of dipshit's tax fetish.
- Quote the New Testament, which says "To whom much is given, much is expected".

Peace.

[lanparty]

26. Jesus is DEFINITELY for progressive taxes!!!!

It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than a rich man through the gates of heaven!!!

You don't here that much from Pat Robertson!!!

[MADem]

5. READ THIS

http://www.factcheck.org/article265.html

Actually, Kerry proposes no specific tax increase on small businesses at all, and in fact is proposing some targeted tax cuts for small businesses. What the Bush ad refers to is Kerry's proposal to raise taxes on individuals making more than $200,000 per year.

Republicans argue that taxing the affluent is, in effect, taxing many small business owners who pay taxes on their business income reported on their personal returns. And that's true enough.

But what we said last December in an article de-bunking a similar tax fable bears repeating here:

FactCheck.org (Dec. 19, 2003): By twisting statistics and over-hyping, Republicans are spoiling for themselves what would otherwise be a perfectly serviceable argument: lowering taxes on the most affluent Americans does indeed lower taxes on many small businesses, and thus creates more jobs. But not nearly as many as . . . Republicans are claiming.

It is true that what Kerry proposes would return the top rates on individuals making over $200,000 to 35% and 39.6%, compared to the nominal top rate for large corporations, which is 35%. Where the Republican argument goes off the rails is in inflating the number of "small businesses" affected by raising rates on those high-income individuals. Republicans count any individual as a "small business owner" who reports even as little as $1 of income from a sole proprietorship (reported on schedule "C" of federal income-tax returns), a partnership, or a "Subchapter S" corporation (one with fewer than 75 stockholders). In fact, the majority of those being counted as "small businesses" are really individuals who aren't primarily business owners, and a huge number have no employees

[Misunderestimator]

6. Well put. Thank you.

[MADem]

12. That's from a DICK CHENEY ENDORSED WEBSITE, too

...or should I say, the one he MEANT to endorse!!

[inmania]

7. from a small business owner...

the argument that this hurts small businesses and puts a penalty on entrepreneurs, the job creators, is BOGUS

As an entrepreneur and small business owner, I can legally deduct tons of stuff, pay myself health/dental, company car, max out 401K contributions, etc, all in pre-tax dollars. The company pays for it, but I don't have to report it as income (would that my small business was doing well enough to buy me anything...this economy is really tough).

In other words, any small business owner who is reporting over $200K in taxable income is making a great living and can certainly afford to give something back to the country giving them the opportunity to make that much money!

[endnote]

9. Exactly! Fuck the lying trickle-down freepers!

[Misunderestimator]

10. Yup... and good for you!

:thumbsup:

[inmania]

14. it's really weird that so many wealthy Repugs are so angry

and resentful about paying any taxes when this country has allowed them the opportunity to make money in the first place. I really don't get it.

[Misunderestimator]

17. I agree... Personally, I have no problem with paying higher taxes

as long as it's not for a god-damned war, based on lies...

[inmania]

19. exactly, jobs, education and health care for everyone

are where I want my tax dollars to go. F*ck the military industrial complex and the greedy pharmcos

[Technowitch]

23. Exactly what I said below in my post, too.

Sounds like Inmania and I are in similar positions.

And yes, I agree 100% that anyone actually earning more than $200k AFTER EXPENSES AND DEDUCTIONS can damned well pay the taxes on it.

[sandnsea]

27. Right, and it's only 4%

Wish I could afford to give me all that stuff too! And 96% of small business owners have an income of less than $200,000.

For this small business owner, it's simple... can I please please buy into a federal health plan, pretty please???? That's all I want.

[democratreformed]

29. from a fellow small business owner...

I agree completely. If my business ever makes anywhere near $200K a year, I'll be more than happy to pay my share.

[mzmolly]

32. DAMN RIGHT!

Welcome to DU! :toast:

[inmania]

35. thanks for the welcome!

[auburngrad82]

36. In 1990 only one in 13 Americans was self-employed or

classified as an "entrepreneur" (the word Dubya says France doesn't have a word for). Don't know what it was during the last census but you have to ask yourself, if only one in 13 was a small business owner then how many of them made 200,000 or more personal income. I know a lot of people that are "small business owners", carpet installers, farmers, computer programmers, etc. Very few of them make anywhere near that figure.

[inmania]

38. most of us don't

we have our good years and our bad years, but most of the entrepreneurs I know are more about independence and quality of life than money.

we don't like being told what to do by a**hole bosses, or waiting around to get a pink slip in the next recession

we don't believe in treating employees unreasonably just to make a buck, our employees often become near-family

we care about providing good products/services at reasonable prices and making our lives, our employees lives, and our customers lives better

...all on way less than $200K/year

[girl gone mad]

8. How is it fair to start a war..

and tell one group of people that dying for their country is an honor, while telling another group that paying at a slightly higher tax rate is an unbearable burden?

Don't foget that Kerry's health care plan will benefit small business enormously more than Bush's tax cuts have.

[saccheradi]

13. right on!

[SmokingJacket]

20. Excellent response! n/t

[harpo]

11. Let's look at what a small business is...

My web hosting company is a small business...does it help me make over 200,000 a year? No...therefore I'm not going to be affected...but the tax benefits proposal will help me if I hire U.S. employees and none from overseas :)

Dick Cheney's small business is just like mine...An S Corp..which basically means I put it on my taxes and I'm not planning to make any real money anytime soon so there are tax benefits for doing so.

If your small business (S corp for example) doesn't help you make over 200,000 then you will not be impacted...if it does then it will impact you.

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

15. No problem, here you go, and thanks for your good work!

http://www.johnkerry.com/pdf/tax_reform.pdf">THE KERRY-EDWARDS PRO-JOBS TAX REFORM PLAN

The Most Sweeping International Tax Reform in Over Four Decades In Order to Encourage Companies to Create Jobs in America and Stop Shifting Jobs Overseas for Tax Reasons

The Kerry-Edwards comprehensive economic agenda will unleash the productive potential of America’s economy to help it create 10 million jobs in John Kerry’s first term as president. A key part of the overall Kerry-Edwards jobs agenda is a proposal to undertake the most sweeping international corporate tax reform in over four decades. As president, John Kerry will eliminate all of the tax breaks that encourage companies to move jobs overseas and use the savings to encourage companies to create jobs in America by cutting taxes for 99 percent of taxpaying corporations. John Kerry will help jump-start job creation with a New Jobs Tax Credit paid for by a one-year tax holiday to encourage companies to reinvest their foreign earnings in America.

---

So, as my understanding of this goes, the plan for corporations is similar to the plan for individuals: close the loopholes and tricks used by the 'fat cats' with the most money, lower taxes on the other 99%.

It's easy to see how individuals who make $200,000/year are making such a large amount that their extra influence and accountants give them an advantage with the tax code. The Kerry/Edwards plan for individuals is designed to even that playing field.

For corporations, the situation is even worse. Large corporations make phony 'investments' with off-shore 'banks' and the result is often that they pay zero income tax. This is unfair to the small businesses, and hurts us all because those small business create productivity growth and innovation in technology much more than the huge corporations do.

It can be tough arguing with those who have been misled about the economy, the war, our security, the Supreme Court, and so many other seemingly basic facts. As the election draws near, many on the Democratic Underground are understandable worried that trouble-makers might show up and try to disrupt our efforts with misleading posts.

We run the risk of overreacting, though, and not responding to our friends who want to help no matter that it is nearly the last minute.

Where are you from, Husker?

[lanparty]

28. I think Kerrie's plan is a step in the right direction ...

But you better believe the Indians and Pakistanis and Chinese are going to challenge it through the WTO. And the WTO will AGREE because the world is sucking off the American economy right now through disbursements home!!!!

Maybe at that point, we'll all realize that WTO is a big sham designed to undermine the authority of nation states in favor of rule by international corporations!!!!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

31. You dream BIG! I do like Kerry's plan to shutdown loopholes and tricks.

I like it!

I am not sure we will be able to completely regain sovereignty in just four years of Kerry. You make a good argument for Kerry 2008!

:)

Sinceriously; I am just pysched that Kerry wants to slam the door on Caymen island tax tricks.

I never understood the reason that sham corporations in the Bahamas, Caymens, etc. could be used to essentially launder money. The idea behind accounting reports is supposedly informing shareholders whether their money is in a good investment. Tell that to Enron shareholders! The Enron balance sheets were cooked up in the Bermuda Triangle.

Kerry's plan to snap the links of established criminal patterns from the sixties are a good start. He has forty years of work to get done, though. I do hope the WTO 'evolves into a new streamlined economic research organization in the vanguard of policy modeling.'

If nothing else, living in Seattle, near the downtown, I won't wish any more WTO gatherings on any cities.

[novadem]

16. You need to get out of Nebraska

that is a solid Red State in more ways than one.

[Technowitch]

21. I own a small business

We have set it up as a wholly owned limited liability company -- a partnership.

We had a very, very good year these past two years. Earned over $200k each year.

When you factor in deductions, however -- including the health insurance we have to pay for ourselves, but also all computer equipment, travel, you name it -- the total drops considerably.

Now, you take that total and divide it between myself and my same-sex spouse. In one of the ONLY benefits we get because the idiot Feds won't let us marry, we are taxed as individuals. So we can divide the income the any way we like.

ON TOP OF THIS, the LLC distribution is as partnership income, not as salary or earned income. So we pay no social security self-employment this income because we are NOT employees. We are owners, so this is essentially a 'profit distribution'.

Meanwhile, we dump as much as we legally can into private retirement accounts.

This results in a taxable income that is... well, very, very low as a percentage of our income.

Basically, George W Bush is bullshitting everyone when he says that Kerry's rollback of the tax cuts on those earning over $200k will affect all that many small businesses. If we were earning anywhere close to that much, I'm sure our accountant would have us redo the company as a corporation or something, and keep the funds in the company as unspent capital.

Shrub is just trying to protect his wealthy friends. As usual.

[Lex]

22. Do you understand how pre-tax deductions work for small businesses?

I have a small business. Believe me, after all the deductible expenses are taken, the profit is NOT $200,000 per year. So my small business is not affected by Kerry's plan.

If my bottom line profit was $200,000 per year, I wouldn't mind paying higher taxes so that those businessmen and businesswomen NOT making $200,000 per year might have a fighting chance of growing their businesses to success as well.

Squeezing the middle class and giving the big tax breaks those who are already wealthy is madness and has NEVER grown the economy EVER.

[Toucano]

33. Thanks, Lex.

The gross receipts ain't the taxable income.

[lanparty]

24. IncomeTaxes affect PROFIT ....

... not revenue!!!

So if your revenue is 1,000,000 but your expenses are only 9,000,000, you only make 100,000.

No you are NOT double taxed!!! Whatever you pay yourself gets subtracted from the income of the business. The money is only taxed once. If you're incorporated, you have some options concerning HOW to distribute the money to incur the least taxation!!!!

No, it does NOT hurt employment. Because WHATEVER you pay your employees is an expense. It doesn't count for taxation. In fact, I believe HIGHER tax rates encourage higher wages. If your taxed higher, the greed factor ameliorates and you might as well give it to your loyal employees rather than the government!!!!

I personally don't know what percentage of sole propriaships (sp??) cross the 200,000 threshold. But anyone who hauls home $200,000 is doing well for themselves. Ironically enough, people making over $200,000 are actually more pro-Kerry than sub-$200,000 earners. Ohh, the irony!!!!

BTW, the missing link in all this is are higher tax brackets. I'd set some at $600,000, 1.5 million, 5 million, 10 million, etc... It DOES NOT complicate the tax code. Anyone making that much money has a tax attorney!!!!!

[Stinky The Clown]

30. BOGUS BULLSHIT QAAQAA

I am a small business part owner and I will do better under Kerry than under *

First of all a "small business" is probably not what you think it is. I'm not certain of today's precise code but it used to be that up to $5,000,000 in revenues was still a small business. I'd bet it is even higher now.

Another category, hardly ever mentioned, is a micro business. And this is the one that most people think of when they think of a small business. The local Republican-Golf Club Member-Caddy Driving-Cigar Smoking-Fat Cat car dealer with two dealerships, ten or fifteen salesmen, and a modest inventory is "small business". The woman who does web site development from her den while tending two kids and has a husband working two jobs and who's web development business earns her a few thou a year in pin money is a micro business. As has already been discussed, the tax issue is on profits. Kerry's gunna give a break to the lady in her den. The fat cat ....... it depends.

Second, the issue is profit, not revenue. If your profit is under $200K, you're fine. If you're over $200K, you can afford a few bux, okay?

Some time ago, I asked my sons (26 and 29) if they would be willing to pay more in taxes to get health care for them and for their friend's grandmothers and for some poor kid in the 'hood. Both of them said sure! (I'm proud of those boys!)

This whole thing is being painted in a way to make it a wedge issue.

If you're a greedy fuck, you're against it. If you're human and humane, you're for it.

As I titled this post, the issue is BOGUS BULLSHIT QAAQAA.

[Lorien]

34. I'm a small business owner

who once had a six figure income. You get a hell of a lot of business deductions when you own your own business, unlike someone working as an employee. I can deduct car payments, some of my morgage (because it's home based),utilities, etc. Even if you only bring home half that amount per year, the other tax advantages make up the difference of a tax increase (compared to employee income) and you are still living very comfortably.

(Down to one third of what I made in the Clinton years now. Thanks *!)

[IronLionZion]

37. Do you seriously think small business owners are fabulously wealthy?

how many do you know that are in the top% income bracket? The only ones I can think of are Bush, Cheney, and other rich assholes who claim to be small business owners just so they evade their fair share of taxes.