Has anyone here voted on the Ohio butterfly ballot?

[PlanetBev]

The one in Cuyouga County? I heard this is a Democratic County and if people can't figure it out and punched the wrong hole, then it doesn't matter what the polls say, we're cooked.

The horrible truth is, even if there is instructions on the ballot, a lot of people don't bother to read them.

[RevCheesehead]

1. Sorry - I don't buy the "blame the ballot" meme...

Flame me if you will, but after the Florida fiasco of 2000, if people don't take the time to read the ballot and double-check their vote, I just don't have any sympathy for them.

"Voting: It's Hard Work."

[MercutioATC]

2. I've been a Cuyahoga County voter for a while....

If you can't figure out the butterfly ballot, you probably shouldn't be voting anyway...

[PlanetBev]

3. I tend to agree with both of you

As with any application, you have to be very careful on how you fill it out.

[rndmprsn]

4. Ive voted with it...its fine.

this is not the problem...but a diversionary tactic, while they try to steal the votes eleswhere...just like in FLA, they had the media and everyone hooked on silly freaking hanging chads when it was the scrubbed voter rolls where the real theft occured...dont buy into it.

[Chili]

5. I helped my Mom with the absentee ballot

...it was a mess. The numbers aren't in sequential order at all - the first page, for the presidential ballot, goes in this order:

Peroutka / Baldwin - #10
Badnarik / Campagna - #2
Bush / Cheney - #4
Kerry / Edwards - #6

WTF! For the record, I don't remember what the ballot looked like in 2000, and I didn't get a chance to vote in the primary, it was over by the time Ohio's primary came around.

For Senate:
Voinovich - #21
Fingerhut - #20

Now, I know that the instructions read as follows:

'Find the number on the official ballot card that corresponds to the number next to the candidate(s) of your choice, and next to the "YES" or "NO" on each question, and next to "FOR" or "AGAINST" on each issue. Firmly punch the small black dot on the card above the number.'

But this is the absentee ballot. I was able to figure it out because I could see the holes and show her how to directly punch them. What will the arrows point to when I get into the booth and I line my card up with this ballot on Tuesday? If the names are in this order, how can they line up with the numbered punch-holes? Obviously I will know if my votes counted as I intended, because I know that #6 is Kerry / Edwards, and it had damn well better reflect that. But this ballot IS a nightmare, and I am an intelligent person who does know how to read instructions. I think dismissing voters who don't read instructions or because you think they're stupid is a mistake... in this atmosphere - if this ballot was created in just this way so that voters would be confused - it's exactly what the Republicans were counting on when they created it (don't forget who the Sec. of State in Ohio is - BLACKWELL) ...and it's not funny.

[Chili]

6. here's an article about it...

http://www.gopusa.com/news/2004/october/1025_ohio_butterfly_ballot.shtml

...and a direct link to an example of the ballot:



This article says the ballot favors Kerry/Edwards - and it may appear that way, at first; but this gives the RNC grounds to scream foul the minute Kerry wins Ohio, and you have the same mess here as we did in Florida, all over again, and AGAIN with a Republican Sec. of State, who has already shown how dishonest and partisan he can be. If you doubt that, then where is the national outcry from the Republicans about this ballot? I don't hear anything... just think: Cuyahoga County is heavily Democratic - you put doubt of the validity of thousands of ballots in this county, and manage to get them invalidated, you've won the state.

BTW... the ballot above must be the official ballot - the absentee ballot, which I'm looking at, does NOT have the candidates in that order.

[Chili]

7. and here is another article, NYT, from yesterday

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/opinion/29fri1.html

"Residents of Ohio's largest county, Cuyahoga, who are voting by absentee ballot this year have to solve a brainteaser. They were each given a ballot with candidates' names, arrows pointing to the right and small numbers. And they each got a punch card with hundreds of little boxes and a number inside each one. A voter is supposed to ignore the arrows on the ballot - which appear to be there by mistake - and punch out the chad in the box on the punch card whose number corresponds to the candidate selected. If, instead, the voter follows the arrow and punches out the chad in the box it points to - as would someone voting in person, with a machine to align the ballot and punch card - that vote could be counted for the wrong candidate, or no candidate.

Ohio is a critical swing state, with 20 electoral votes and dead-even polls. The more than 75,000 absentee ballots that have been requested in Cuyahoga County, which includes Cleveland, could decide the election. Although the ballots include instructions that theoretically guide people on how to use them properly, the county elections board has been fielding calls from confused voters. There is no way of knowing how many voters are simply punching the wrong holes and mailing their ballots."


Just a note: I've voted in 6 previous presidential elections and some primaries as well - I've NEVER been confused by a ballot, never seen one that didn't make sense, and I've never heard of voters being confused in this county. This is a first.

[WCGreen]

8. I made sure I helped my Mother in law with her AB

as well....

But it has to be that way. In order to run the Absentee Ballots through the counting machine, they have to be in same order as they are on the ballots cast at the polling place....

Look, I served on the cuyahoga County BOE and know that this can be confusing but this is exactly how they have been voting since the 1970's......

I tend to agree with the people who say if you can't find the correct number on the punch card that corresponds to the number right next to the candidates name, then shame on you....

The only problem I had back in 1995 and the same problem I still have is that no where in the instructions for Absentee ballots does it say punch the box ABOVE the number....

That could be confusing to some people. I wanted to change it when I was on the Board and I still want it changed now....

[Chili]

9. did you look at the ballot?

Look at the graphic in the link ...it say "Bush/Cheney - #4" on the absentee ballot - and "Bush/Cheney - #4" on the ballot we'll be voting with on Tuesday. But the actual arrow on the ballot is pointing to #14. That means that the boxes and numbers DON'T match up. The articles say the same thing.

[WCGreen]

10. First of all...

That official ballot is rotated from precinct to precicnt so that in some Kerry is first, in other Bush is first....

The few punched out slots at the bottom of the ballot indicate to the counting machine which precinct is being counted....

That is the way they do it throughout Ohio...

The Butterfly effect, a race spilling over from one page to another, doesn't appear, from what I can remember from the ballot, anywhere.
All the races are contained on one page even though there are some pages of the voting book that has both sides of the book with slots with candidates...

This is exactly how the voting has been done since the 1970's....

On Edit....

I forgot to answer your question...

When you go to the polling place, you get a card and slip into the slot at the top of the voting book. The numbers on the slot line up with the numbers on the punch card ballot. You can't vote seeing the puchcard while looking through the book so the line up controvesy is a cannard.

The ballots are stored by precinct at the BOE so they can be checked at a later date

If you are really worried, all you have to do to check this is look at the ballot when you pull the card out, flip back to the presidents page and look for the corresponding number. See if it matches. If it doesn't call attention to the voting personal and tell them you wish to vote again, that you made a mistake. So it again and see if it still is wrong. Then, you have a case.....

[Chili]

11. I pray that you are correct...

...and that this doesn't blow up. It could be disastrous.

And I wish the NYT and the other paper had investigated and asked someone who would know - I guess it's more newsworthy to panic people than to calm any fears, especially if it's not really a "butterfly ballot." I have no way of knowing what the ballot will look like, I haven't voted yet.

[WCGreen]

12. I'm not privy to this particular election

but I was on the Board and worked hard with them until 2002.....

No, who ever wrote the story didn't get it right. They seem to have taken a Republican complaint and blown it out of proportion......

Unless everything I know has changed in just two years....

I think they actually fought to not change anything with the actual process until after this election cycle....

BTW, voter challenges have been on the book for decades. We use to challenge voters all the time. But after the Dems took complete control of Cuyahoga County in 1994, the challenges stopped. No need.....