Are you positive that Clark isn't just all rhetoric?

[peabody71]

The fact that Clark was basically a product of the military industrial complex and is now a social liberal, leaves me wondering about the man. Has he learned to simply state what Democrats want to hear or is he the real deal. To often, with Bush as the example, politicians use BS rhetoric that never amounts to a hill of beans.
Does Clark have alliances and ideologies that we can trust?

[Democrats unite]

1. I believe that argument can be said of any of the candidates.

eom

[unfrigginreal]

13. The other candidates have a political past to look at

Wesley Clark is the new guy on the block. It doesn't really help that his campaign seems hell bent on running an image over substance campaign. People that pay close attention to the process will be suspicious.

[KittyWampus]

24. Dealing With Problems Such As Race, Spousal Abuse & Education Successfully

illustrate just how effective a leader Clark is.

Clark is not an "Image" and that you don't know about his past accomplishments says more about you than him.

[mikehiggins]

2. yes. an honest answer to an honest question eom

[Bucky]

36. He's lived in the military, but dang what a near-socialist institution!

His big government liberalism is as much a concern to me as his position on flag burning. I think he'll be a great president, but he'll have as much of a learning curve as any high office holder. I think his tax policy shows too much largesse in the same way I find Dean's tax policies to be too spartan.

I have zero concerns about him as a non small-d democrat. His commitment to the Constitution and the rule of law are rock solid. Unlike Bush, who only said what he wanted people to hear--compassionate conservatism and all that rot--Clark explains why he feels the way he does about our liberal democracy and the need to build strong international relations. He's thought about it and he gives answers in words that a Truman or a Jefferson would know and affirm.

I think, honestly, that there's a bit of a George Washington in him too. He'll be the kind of president who is everybody's president. He'll make conservatives eat shit a few times, but he'll make them understand it's for the country's good and he'll make 'em like it.

[mmonk]

3. why?

On what basis would he lie and what would make him less trustworthy than any of the other candidates? Because he was a general in the US armed forces?

[Maddy McCall]

4. He has taken some extremely liberal positions...tell me why he would do

so intstead of taking more mainstream ones if he weren't sincere.

To say that the government should have NO authority in abortion decisions is an example. He didn't say "except in the third trimester." He didn't say "except to restrict partial birth abortions" (which, as LandOFLincoln has so well articulated, is a bullshit term--but for the sake of argument). He has said the government has NO PLACE in the decision.

If he wanted to take rhetorical positions and didn't sincerely believe what he says, then it seems to me, at least on this issue, he would take a more "benign" position.

I think all candidates speak rhetorically on some issues. At least on THIS issue (and I can think of ten others too) Clark's heart is behind what he says.

[dogman]

5. Absolutely!

I've seen him in person and truly believe he is for real. I don't think he's that good of an actor. I'm as convinced as Moore.

[Mz Pip]

6. What would be the point?

Clark had a nice life prior to entering the race. Why would he put himself though all this scrutiny just to throw out sound bites fed to him by some secret handlers?

I heard him speak and if he is faking this he should win an Oscar for Best Actor. He's the real deal. Support him or not, but speculating about whether or not he can be trusted really doesn't accomplish much since so much of these issues have been debated into the dirt.

MzPip
:dem:

[wiley]

7. Wesley Clark is the real thing

I have met the man several times now and each time he said exactly what was on his mind. I'm not just impressed by him, I concur with Michael Moore that the Democratic Party has been given a gift in the form of Wesley Clark.

[Justice]

8. Clark Is the Real Deal

What convinced me that Clark is an average guy, cares about the average guy and can relate to the average guy? A couple of things.

First, his upbringing. He did not grow up with very much. He worked hard, he earned the right to go to West Point on merit. He didn't have handouts, he earned his way.

He told the story at one NH rally about being a major or a colonel in the Army and having to fix his own car b/c he couldn't afford to pay for the repairs. So over the course of a month, he rebuilt his car. He ended the story by saying - and I didn't repair it because it was a hobby. I remember my dad fixing cars growing up - for the same reasons.

He also told a story about knowing how hard it is to move for a job. Changing houses or apartments, and wanting new curtains, or curtain rods or bathroom rugs, cuz the old ones don't fit or are the wrong color.

These are ordinary comments - but it struck me that he could relate to people like me, as I can't imagine Bush* even thinking about car repairs or bathroom rugs, or earning his way into school.

In terms of character, I was struck by Clark going to the aid of others in Bosnia, when a convoy truck went off the road and down the mountain. Clark, in the face of enemy fire, traversed down the side of the mountain to the truck. He said the scene, including the men who had died, was the worst thing he ever saw. There were other men that he could have ordered down the mountain - but he did not order others to go - the life he risked was his own. When he wrote his memoirs, he mentioned the incident only in passing. We learned about it because of the Vanity Fair article, and because of Holbrooke's book - where it was discussed in greater detail.

There is more, but these are some of the reasons.

[demconfive]

9. Your question is based on an assumption.

You assume that anyone who has a career in the military is a right wing conservative. That assumption is wrong. While I'll agree that a large percentage are conservative, liberals also feel the need to serve their country. Don't forget that Eisenhower himself warned us of the 'military-industrial complex'. While he ran as a republican, he was courted just as strongly by the democrats.

[shance]

23. And your belief is based on assumption.

There is no record to go by other than his military record.

Please note I think he is a good person overall, but the concerns are warranted,

and he has not been involved in Democratic politics long enough for Demsjust to assume, oh hes great, hes military and hes really nice so lets elect him! We all want someone to save us, but we can only save ourselves. That is why we must choose wisely who our candidate will be.

[peabody71]

10. I truely want to believe Clark is a good guy, but...

I cannot get over him being an all powerful General working for the United States foreign policy machine for so many years.

[funky_bug]

15. And yet we bash Bush

...for being a draft dodger. Can we please recognize the hypocrasy of this argument?

[bearfartinthewoods]

25. there is a BIG difference between surviving the military and being

the type of man who prospers there.

besides, he says some really silly things.

[funky_bug]

30. I have decided

to utilize the ignore button on posters who submit unsubstantiated claims.

[MariaS]

20. It's hard to know

when to believe in and trust in someone and going with your gut or likewise your heart, isn't always foolproof. Try to take the time to see Clark in person or watch his earlier appearances on CSpan.org. I personally go with it when my heart and my gut tell me the same thing and they are both telling me that Wesley Clark is the real deal. I believe of all the candidates that he is the only true leader because I personally don't consider politicians leaders with the exception of the POTUS (Not this President though) I don't ever recall thinking of any Senator or Congress Person or any politician as a leader. I think of them as employees of the states they represent and most of the time they aren't even very good employees. To me leaders are Teachers, Parents and yes Generals.

[exJW]

11. Your premise is wrong

:The fact that Clark was basically a product of the military industrial complex...

This is not a good position to take in an arguement about Wesley Clark as he is anything but a "product" of anything.

Beyond that, Clark's life is full of stories wherein he showed amazing character and courage and wisdom in doing things that helped other people. That stuff isn't rhetoric. For that matter, he's written two books (and not with the help of ghostwriters either), one of which he wrote before there was any talk of him being a candidate for president. So read them and you'll either find two books worth of "rhetoric", or you'll find out alot about how Clark thinks. I think you'll find the latter.

[Feanorcurufinwe]

12. That is my worry.

When I hear him speak he sounds great, but he has no record other than a military one to judge him by. And I hate to sound petty but I don't think it is, when I heard that he voted to re-elect Reagan -- I have a real problem with that. It was no secret to any intelligent person in 1984 that Reagan was an empty suit, and I believe Clark is an intelligent person.

[Mz Pip]

16. Lots of people supported Reagan

and they weren't all stupid. That's huge generalization.

At some point in this campaign, whoever the Democrat is, he will have to reach out and win over some of those people. I can't see how he will be able to do it if all he does now is trash people who voted for Reagan.

MzPip
:dem:

[Feanorcurufinwe]

22. I'm not saying

my candidate should trash people who voted for Reagan. What I'm saying is that I, as someone who lived through it and voted against Reagan twice, do not understand how someone of General Clark's obvious intelligence, could have voted for Reagan twice, and George Bush Sr., and hold the views he says he does now, without having undergone some kind of extraordinary idealogical conversion, which the General does not describe. Instead, what I've been told by some supporters is that he voted for Reagan because Reagan was in favor or increased defense spending. If that's the reason, it gives me even less confidence, because it displays a self serving character - 'let the world go to hell in a handbasket as long as they are funding my military'.

Look, I do like what Clark says, and I would like to see him continue in politics as a Democrat. But give him the top job right away? No, with all due respect to the General's rank and accomplishments, he's got to earn his stripes first. He has said Veep is out - Secretary of Defense would be the perfect position.

[dogman]

26. Carter was in charge of a fiasco.

The attempt to rescue the hostages was a complete failure. I voted for Carter and believe he was victimized by the bankers. However the hostage rescue was something that could cause a lack of confidence on the part of anyone in the military. Reagan also took the gamble to defeat the Soviets economically and fortunately won. I personally credit the American people who had to make the financial sacrifices. Of course these were not his rich friends who benefit once again under this regime, but that's another thread.

[LoneStarDem]

14. Yes

Yes. He obviously had strong threads of liberal belief long before this race. He put himself, his reputation, and his career on the line on numerous occasions for the sake of progressive causes. Plus, the line "a product of the MIC" is prejudicial, in so much as it assumes that no one can come from the military and be a liberal, too. In fact, the majority of opinions have stated that Clark actually unsettled the traditional "old boy" military structure because he was progressive, but that he was too smart and had too stellar a record to marginalize him. He was promoted up the chain based on his overwhelming qualifications even in the face of this "problem".

[Tom Rinaldo]

17. Yes I am

And I also asked myself that question before committing to support Clark, and I spent a lot of time looking into his life as well as his positions. I've also been at three events where Clark spoke and I echo what has been said about his presence. My experience of him resonates with Moore's.

Clark isn't a product of the military industrial complex, in my opinion. Yes Clark has spent his life working inside it, but that it a somewhat different truth. Clark has a strong self defining quality about him that is not overly susceptible to standardized molding. Obviously his experiences in the military defined much of who Clark is today, but Clark is no one's "product". To our great benefit, I believe, Clark is somewhat of a maverick. His record supports that conclusion. If Clark had gotten along swimmingly well with Cohen and Shelton, I doubt very much he would be someone I could strongly support.

[snoochie]

18. No one could possibly be positive

You cannot see into the man's heart and soul. He has taken some brave stands, and he has made some questionable assertions.

We can't know until he's in the position to back up his claims with action.

[Lefta Dissenter]

19. Have you met the man?

Then you'll know.

I've been working in Clark's Madison campaign office, and through that, I've spent some time talking with veterans. I've talked with career military men, including one of Wes Clark's classmates. Boy, am I having to dispense with many of my pre-conceived notions and biases.

I was raised by two anti-war activists. Never in my wildest dreams would I have imagined supporting a General to be President of the United States! But I now understand a lot more about the military, and I now realize that there are a LOT of good, brilliant, compassionate people who choose the military as a way of life.

I know that my simple little words won't do a thing to convince you that Clark is an honorable man. But if you are willing to let go of your prejudices, and give him the same chance to prove himself that you are willing to give the other candidates, you will find your eyes opening. If you could only listen to the man speak, meet him in person, even try to meet people who KNOW him... you will KNOW that he is simply telling what he knows to be the truth, and that he loves this country with all of his heart, and he is doing the only thing he knows to try to help our country.

And, by the way, my dad, of all people, is supporting Wes Clark. (My mom died 11 years ago, so we don't get to peer in on her vote) When my dad and I were talking about the fact that Former Madison Mayor Paul Soglin has endorsed Clark, my dad was remembering fondly the days when Soglin was getting arrested at the anti-war protests on campus, when my dad and mom were facing tear-gas in order to make their views known... My, how the world just continues to turn 'round and 'round.

[democratreformed]

37. Your post is touching

I, too, lost my mom - four years ago. If she were here, she would be supporting Wes Clark too. My dad's a little harder to sell - shhh! he's a Republican.

What you say is true. Wes Clark does truly love our country and genuinely cares about its citizens.

[SW FL Dem]

48. Well put

I met Wes at the FL Dem convention. I watched him day in and day out on CNN. I used to be actively involved in politics in the 70s. I got disgusted and distracted in the 80s. I supported Clinton and Gore, but didn't do much more than vote for them. Wes Clark has gotten me excited and involved in Democratic politics for the first
time in 25 years. Yes, part of my reaction is due to my fear of another four years of Bush. A bigger part of my support is a real hope that Wes Clark can make the world a safer and better place for my son.

[the populist]

21. No.

We cannot trust Clark. He is a Clinton-esque conservative (sorry, folks, you can't be called a liberal after selling American jobs to Mexico) at best and a neocon Trojan horse at worst.

[mzmolly]

27. Nope

:hi:

[bain_sidhe]

28. Yup

:hi:

[wyldwolf]

29. absolutely

[jpgpenn]

31. using the question format to state a subtle Smear!

This is the new way of getting the smear out here at DU.

[the populist]

33. Please take the cotton out of your ears.

You should be open to criticism of your candidate. The thread-starter raises a legitimate point about whether we can trust someone like Clark. This has been a huge issue for me about Clark despite his unquestionable electability.

[jpgpenn]

34. you can continue to leave it in.

[Killarney]

32. Yes, he has a history

I'm sure he isn't just rhetoric because he has a history of supporting measures throughout the military that we would consider liberal. He pushed for affirmative action in the military. He pushed for better health care, housing, and child education for those in the military and their families. He also helped push through the first measure to prevent spousal abuse in the military. And in the past 12 years, he has voted Democratic. His records are open now and we can see this with our own eyes. I trust him and applaud him for his efforts.

[democratreformed]

35. Wes Clark is the real deal

Yes, I believe that he means what he says and is not all rhetoric. I believe that he is a man who genuinely cares about our country and its citizens.

After my trip to New Hampshire, I was talking about it to my (almost reformed Republican) dad. He asked why I was doing all these things for my candidate. He wondered if I was expecting anything in return (like a job, he said). I said, "Yes, I expect to have a great president." And that is truly just what I expect.

[arewethereyet]

38. I see no reason to think so

sorry but its how I feel

[Walt Starr]

39. Actually, I'm postive he is

Since this subject is based solely upon opinion, my opinion is the man doesn't have an ounce of sincerity in his body.

I would be torn in the choice of two evils because on the one hand you ave a known great evil that can only remain in office four more years under the law. On the other have you have a completely unknown evil who could do damage for as much as eight years. In those sorts of choices, I prefer to stay home, lock my doors, and pray!

[rucky]

40. Clark gets the benefit of the doubt

he's saying the right things. they don't sound TOO right, ifyaknowwhatimean. and takes bold stances sometimes that may not necessarily be the popular ones. He definately deserves the benefit of the doubt.

[gulliver]

41. Yes. I trust him.

And as to whether he "has alliances and ideologies that we trust," yes again. Clinton worked with him and likes him ... Michael Moore likes him and is working to help get him elected.

Watch Clark and see his intellect, honor, and passion on display for all to see. He can bring the Democratic party back to its full strength and progressive ideals back to full life.

[kodi]

42. clark is a pragmatist and damn smart, but his "rhetoric" is meaningful

when anyone accuses another person of being a product of the military industrial complex because he graduated 1st at west point, became both a white house fellow and rhodes scholar and spent 30 years in the army, they had better come up a fairly detailed explanation of just how that accusation, of a form of "brain washing" by the M-I complex occured and how the by-product of it's implanted value system reflects an attitude found in clark towards the M-I complex more sympathetic than the average person.

i dont think you can, and i dont think clark supports the M-I more than the average person.

in fact, its pretty clear that compared to the average person clark understands the problems of the M-I complex and how it has a deleterious impact on the US economy. i think he clearly heeds the words eisenhower spoke about the dangers of the M-I complex in his farewell speech

if anyone can graple with the M-I complex and tame it, clark can.

for the same reasons, ie., personal integrity and familiarity of process, i find dr dean the best out there to graple with the health care issues

clark is a brilliant student of the military and political strategist clausewitz. he showed that clearly with his "winning modern wars" where clark took clausewtiz's lessons on fully preparing a nation for war by examining thoroughly and with imagination each important feature to complete political success before firing a shot and applying the template to iraq clark showed how frigging needlessly stupid bush et al were.

it was an impressive analysis and i wish more folks would read that book (and clausewitz). clark is surely a leader who understands the modern world and oddly enough he used the tools of a 19th century military philosopher to show it.

i like wes clark, i like howard dean, but today i decided to support john edwards.

[Jerseycoa]

43. Edwards is on the move

:D

[Kat45]

44. Yes. I believe he is the real thing. Honest and sincere.

Compassionate and caring.

[LandOLincoln]

45. Am I positive Clark isn't all rhetoric? Yes, I am.

The man is a throwback to an earlier, much more innocent time, before the 60s, before JFK, RFK and MLK were murdered, before Watergate.

I think maybe you have to have been born in the 40s (I was born in '43, Clark in '44) or even earlier, to understand him. My first memories are of men in uniform--my dad the fighter pilot, my uncles the Naval officers. They were heroes then, and rightly so, and that's the tradition Clark comes out of. Remember too that it was JFK who inspired Clark to serve his country, and IIRC JFK was a Democrat, wasn't he? ;-)

Anway, I'm convinced that with Clark what you see is what you get. "All patriot, no act" isn't just a clever slogan, it's fact. I'd stake my life on it, and I'm saying this as someone who demonstrated against the war in Vietnam, who despised Tricky Dick and Ronald Reagan, and who once had her phone tapped by the Fibbies because I was working with the Skyhorse/Mohawk Defense Committee--which included famed lefty attorney Leonard Weinglass--to free two AIM leaders who'd been framed for murder in Ventura County, CA. We won, BTW.)

[LuminousX]

46. All biography, little else

How does a man like Clark evolve to the positions he currently holds?

[SW FL Dem]

47. YES n/t

[MoonRiver]

49. Yep, I am 100% certain of that. n/t