John Kerry, today you just slapped 60 million democrats in the face...

[TruthIsAll]

They worked their butts off for you. They counted on you to get our country back.

The least you could have done was to fight the BBV. You could have let the lawyers do their thing. Fight it all the way to Scotus; something tells me they would have voted OUR way this time.

They stole it a second time in plain sight. And you did nothing. You overruled your lawyers and John Edwards who wanted to do what's right: fight for the truth. To get the the obvious discrepancies of the non-paper trail voting machines and the exit polls right out in the open. Its funny that where there were paper trails, the vote counts agreed.

You turned just like the rest of the DNC - no spine. Unity? You care about unity? With the Great Uniter, Bush?

John, the unity is gone. Fractured. You have just legitimized the Bushco fascist regime.

It's 2000 all over again. At least Al Gore fought for us long as he could.

[Changenow]

1. This belongs in the fighting section. nt

[Dickie Flatt]

6. this belongs in the whining section

We lost. It sucks. But now there's a choice: start working towards victory in 2006 and beyond, or sit on your sorry ass and bitch.

The choice is yours.

[pretzel4gore]

24. the diebolt guy in ohio PROMISED the win for bushinc?

he was also the repuke committe leader (or asshole polisher, what ever) and john just gave in....

[Peak_Oil]

35. Skull and Bones 2004... you have no choice anyway!

Enjoy!

[sendero]

34. If nobody is going to ...

... tackle the BBV issue, why fight? All future elections are already over.

I'm hoping that there is still something up their sleeve. If this is all there is, well, I'm very, very, very dissapointed, and I'll be damned if I'm going to waste more of my time and money only to have the last minute shrug.

[La Lioness Priyanka]

2. ohh please!

he had a right to retire from this race in dignity.

pettiness is not for everyone.

[calico1]

3. According to Randi Rhoads

a lot of the votes could not be recounted in Ohio because they were on diebold machines and had no paper trail so there was no way to recount.

[jmaier]

8. I hate to be a counterpoint

but I'd suggest Rhandi Rhodes (whom I respect) is speaking more from agenda than knowledge. I'd expect that Kerry's team had a pretty good grasp on the numbers: outstanding ballots by precint, demographics of the precints, etc. If they thought there was a realistic chance of winning Ohio -- they'd be in the fight.

[calico1]

11. Well, that too is a possibility.

I tend to think that if there was a good chance he would have fought.

[jdj]

55. that is baloney, what the hell is Randi talking about?

I like her but it really pisses me off when she doesn't get her facts straight which is more often than it should be. i e-mailed her three factual corrections on her 2nd day on air.

The votes in question are provisional ballots, given to people who were either not on the rolls or didn't have id or weren't at the right precinct.

There are anywhere from 100,000 to 250,000 provisional and absentee ballots, just in Ohio. Bush has an 140,000 vote lead there, so theoretically Kerry could win.

The electronically voted ballots in Ohio are not even in dispute at this point.

If we dems don't stretch our brains and get a grip on this bbv stuff we will lose every election from here on out.

[Fla Dem]

4. What exactly would you have had him do? n/t

[DancingBear]

9. Bring it out in the open

Refer to lawsuits, BBV, the recent problems in Washington.

Refer to his internal polls, get people from Ohio involved, file FOA acts.

Work with true investigative journalists like Palast.

Refer to the Diebold CEO comments about "delivering" Ohio.

Make America aware of what these black boxes do! Most of the country has no clue.

Stir up some righteous indignation. Try and stop the bastards NOW, before 100% of the country goes black box.

Up to 7 million votes didn't count - and no stupid plea for unity is going to get them back.

How's that?

[Fla Dem]

16. Would have change NOTHING. BBV has been been discussed

on TV, in news magazines, etc. There was nothing new.

We all agree they stink, but what...He says this isn't fair because of BBV? Ohio doesn't even use BBV, they use paper.

[DancingBear]

23. Oh please

Care to conduct an informal poll about how many U.S. citizens know about BBV?

As an aside, if you actually think * won FLA by 300K+ plus votes, I have land for sale in Kansas with an ocean view.

[SoCalDemocrat]

54. That's not true

Ohio has EVoting systems, just with no paper audit trails. Those don't go into effect until 2006.

The point is that WE MUST FIGHT. Not as Kerry Supporters, but as fellow Democrats. We must fight for our election laws, for election reform, and for our rights as citizens to have every vote fairly cast and counted without interference in the electoral process.

[TruthIsAll]

19. Dancing Bear, you just said it better than me.

tia

[TruthIsAll]

15. Let the lawyers compile a circumstantial case for fraud.

They can do that with the help of mathematicians who can determine the probability of fraud by comparing the actual voting results for machines with and without paper trails to the exit polling.

It appears that the exit polls match the actuals when there is a paper trail. With no paper trail, the discrepancies in vote counts all favor Bush.

That's what he could have done. That's what his lawyers and Edwards wanted him to do.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tridim]

12. TIA predicted a huge Kerry win based on the polls

It's not his fault that the polls were complete BS. I will never believe a poll again in my life.

[TruthIsAll]

17. You are wrong. The polls were right. The votes were miscounted.

Jeez, why do you fail to see the obvious?

[d_b]

7. Fuck that

I'm a green.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

25. anyone else think the " lets win in 08 " people are plants from 2000 ....

Planted for just this time.
Planted to squash dissent.
Planted to lure the weak into submission.

Fuk 06 fuk 08

If you don't fight now YOU LOSE

WE LOSE

THE REST OF THE WORLD LOSES!
:nuke:
I feel sick.

It is so obvious your election was rigged.


good luck from a
worried Canadian

lets us know what we can do to help.

[mark414]

10. this election was legitimate

it's the values thing people, the VALUES thing that killed us

i underestimated it, and it destroyed us

wake up and quit pointing fingers, there's a lot of work yet to be done

[Hippo_Tron]

46. It's true, they made it about "fags getting married"...

When we have a war, roaring defecits, a national healthcare crisis, civil liberties, and basically everything else on the line. It's truly sad.

[DaCheat]

13. First

Its time to count our loses, and begin searching for identity. The radical left isnt going to prove for a base that we can rely on. We need to search for a good canditate, and we have 4 years to do that, and we can judge our success in 2006. Until then, work like you did in the days before the election. Help work for the democratic minority, keep the pressure on Republicans, and make them conform every so often to what we want. We cant give up, or bitch, there isnt time for that. 4 years shall pass quickly, and the Republicans may give us a lot of ammo to use against them, but we cant rely just on that. We have to work to make 2006/2008 work for us. We can do it!

[tsuki]

21. No,

we need to take a page out of the Republican handbook. Take back the governorships and state legislatures first. Run on Diebold. Run on the mess the economy is about to become. State candidates need to run against the federal government, not their opponents. Your opponent is merely an extension of the Feds, the Feds, the Feds. No jobs? The Feds. Outsourcing? The Feds. You cannot take back the Presidency until you take back each and every state. Look at Ohio.

[life_long_dem]

45. How much ammo will it take?

Bush was an armory full of ammo. People that voted for bush are either stupid or uninformed. We had the ammo, and it wasn't for lack of getting the message out, ARMAGEDDON, that's all the fundies are concerned about.

Our time will come. We will take back what's LEFT of our country.

[Swede Atlanta]

18. He has let us all down

He gave up before the last votes were tallied. He didn't question the inconsistencies between exit polls and the "official" DIEBOLD counts. He let us down. He did so well until this point. I only have to ask, WHY? I don't plan on being politically engaged anymore; no more contributions to candidates and causes...I concede those to the other side...no more phone banking, no more poll watching. When you have the Nazi tide against you...you have no chance.

[meti57b]

20. I agree with TruthIsAll, There was no need to quit as soon as possible.

The bush administration was already in office and so-called running the government ... there was no excuse that they needed all that time to set up a new government, like they claimed in 2000.

I felt it was a slap in the face that Kerry quit like that. He could have worked to get the all the votes counted and get whatever audits he could. People had waited in line for hours to vote for him.

Also, it has been pointed out that the vote counts did not agree with the exit polls in Florida and Ohio even though the vote counts were in agreement with exit polls in the other states. That certainly looks suspicious of vote tampering.

Most importantly, professional pollster Zogby who everyone was adoring as "the best pollster" for months now, also predicted that Kerry would win big-time.

Kerry probably actually did win the vote, it's just that the votes weren't counted (whether by paperless voting machines or the provisional ballots). So quit kvetching at TIA that things didn't work out like the predictions.

We was robbed!

[lumpy]

22. John Kerry doesn't deserve

this vituperative attack. Do yu believe that leaving the vote up to the supreme court is the way to go and should be a precident for every election? It was a close race and the numbers didn't add up to a win for Kerry. Approximately 50% of US voters are the whimps, selfish and blind faith followers who put this atrocity of a president back in office. Kerry did an excellent job trying to overcome the ignorance that is endemic this country. Guess those red-state voters just aren't ready for intelligent discourse and review of US policies and lack true moral fiber.

[man4allcats]

26. I too was stunned.

I don't know if the result would have been different had Kerry fought it out. Perhaps not but now we may never know, and in any case it can't matter anymore. He conceded. I have to say I was stunned to learn he had done so so soon. I would like to give Senator Kerry the benefit of the doubt. He said in his email that elections should be decided by the people; not by lawyers in courts. It's a noble sentiment, but I think it's a little naive. It's time to realize just who the Republicans are. They are not just another party in the American democracy that wants the same things we do but have a somewhat different approach to the attainment of those goals. These people are corrupt opportunists who will stop at nothing to achieve their ends. For them, the end really does justify the means. How could Kerry not have known that? Democracy in this country started going south four years ago. Did the Senator sleep through the 2000 "election"? These people are not going to play by the rules. They have no respect for the Constitution or the rule of law. I still respect Senator Kerry, but I think it's way passed time for him and all the rest of us to wake up and recognize shit for what it is when that peculiar, pungent odor enters our political nostrils. Nothing less than democracy itself is at risk here. We lost this election. America will lose much more than that if we don't meet these bastards head on and accept the fact that we have to fight fire with fire. Osama is not the greatest threat to this country. This country itself is at once its own greatest threat and its own best hope. We'd better do it now, people, because when it's gone we won't easily get it back. Ask the German people who lived through Hitler if you doubt it.

[Pobeka]

27. Exit polls are all we have, hear me out.

The concession bugs me too, a lot.

The only reason I could come up with, was because a challenge now in Ohio based on exit polls would likely fail.

Then there would be a *legal* precedent of discrediting exit polls. Right now there is only a layperson's distrust of the exit polls.

Waddayathink?

[Piperay]

28. I agree

completely.

[AnnInLa]

29. John Kerry, you did not slap my face today

Today, you made me proud that I supported you so vigorously. I love your strength and your intelligence and your devotion to this country. My admiration and respect for you has grown every time I heard you speak out for this country. Job well done and much appreciated!

[Demi_Babe]

38. I could not have said it better myself. John Kerry is a great man and we

the people of America are the losers...not Kerry. We lost the chance to have probably one of the very best Presidents in American history. Something is seriously wrong with about half of our country.

Never forget that more Americans voted against George Bush than any sitting president in history. We gave it our all as did John Kerry and I hold my head high tonight and am very proud of John Kerry!

[webjamn]

53. I agree

It's not Kerry's fault that the majority of our population are ignorant fuckers. Bush and Kerry pulled the wool of the eyes of the true believers while they stabbed us in the back. Kerry had his faults but I still respect him

[BlueScreen]

30. Even Salon.com says BBV alone could not have accounted for the * win

I am not saying that malfeasance may not have been a factor, and I know this is now the "Fighting and Acrimony" forum, but I generally trust Salon. This is from today's War Room, and it specifically mentions DU:

The paperless machines were (probably) not rigged

Lefty Web sites are buzzing with a supposed "statistical analysis" that they say proves that Republicans stole the election by rigging paperless touch screen machines. According to the analysis -- the link is here, but the site's down at the moment due to high traffic -- performed by a Democratic Underground regular who goes by the handle SoCalDemocrat, states that use electronic machines were all showing strong Kerry support in exit polls, but when the results came in, the states went to Bush. The polls (which are based on interviews with voters as they leave the polls) indicate that voters in the state really voted for Kerry, the lefties say; the machines distorted or changed their votes. "Maybe Dubayah believes God will see him through this, but it's going to take more than blind faith to pull the wool over the data and the facts," SoCalDemocrat writes.

But as we see it, SoCalDemocrat's evidence is quite thin. For one thing, he appears to be wrong on the facts. While he's correct that exit polls showed a Kerry victory in many states that actually went to Bush, this didn't only happen in states that use paperless touch screen machines.

The most obvious example here is Nevada, the only state in the nation to use what many computer scientists consider to be the safest touch screen machines -- machines that print a paper ballot that is reviewed by the voter as each vote is cast, a so-called voter-verified paper trail. In Nevada, the last exit polls showed Kerry leading Bush by 49 to 48 percent, with 1 percent for Ralph Nader. The actual result was a win for Bush by 51 to 48 percent.

And even in states that do use paperless touch-screen machines, it's not clear that Bush made his gains in touch-screen areas of the states, rather than regions that use other machines. For instance, in Florida, it's the state's large South Florida counties that use paperless touch screens. But Bush did worse in these regions in 2004 than in 2000. In the 2000 race in Miami-Dade, Bush got about 47 percent of the two-party share of the vote, while Al Gore received 53 percent; this year, Bush only got 46 percent of the two-party vote there, while Kerry got 54 percent. What this means is that in the move from punch-card machines (which, as everyone remembers, Miami-Dade used in 2000) to paperless touch screens, Bush actually did worse, not better. At the same time, the president gained in Orange County, Florida. In 2000, Gore beat Bush in Orange County, whose largest city is Orlando; this year, Kerry lost to Bush there. And Bush didn't need rigged machines to do it -- Orlando uses paper-based optical scan voting machines, which computer scientists consider more reliable than the touch screen systems.

Even if unfounded, the Democratic Underground set's suspicion is understandable. The exit polls were odd. And who can forget the infamous pledge of Wally O'Dell, CEO of touch-screen machine vendor Diebold, to deliver Ohio's electoral votes to Bush this year? (Ohio, though, used no paperless touch screens.) One way to make sure future presidential races are above such suspicion would be to add paper trails to all the paperless machines.

[Piperay]

42. Interesting article

THANKS for putting it up, gives me something to think about.

[leftofthedial]

31. Kerry and the other DLCers

neocon bitches

and I HATE using that word.

amke that BOTH those words.

[candy331]

48. Agree!

[GreenPartyVoter]

32. Do what you can to save your states now.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Catt03]

33. I was a bit disappointed in Kerry's speech

I felt he said 'thanks everyone. I really enjoyed it. Now workwith George Bush and heal the differences.'

Now Edwards speeech was different. He said he would always be there for us. Knows about the big hosipital bills if you don't have insurance......

Maybe we should send them to him.

[Generator]

36. Well I don't know what Kerry knows BUT

That is not the man I voted for. I believed. I will never believe again in any Presidential candidate.

Legitimized the Bushco Regime? Exactly. You nailed it. I was had.

[symphony]

37. extremely disappointed

after all this ground work

We know the repugs cheated, why not try to call them on it? As they say, we have nothing to lose but our chains!

[frustrated_lefty]

39. This is the ONLY time I'm saying this....

My first thought at hearing Kerry conceded was......"goddammit, this is EXACTLY fucking why I was behind Dean in the primaries."

Sorry guys, but I have some pent up rage over this. Maybe Dean would have been blown out in the electoral college, but JESUS CHRIST, he would NOT have bellied up within 24 hr of the votes starting to be counted!

Sorry for the rant, but this is hard to handle....for all of us. Consolation to any who are ready to take it at this point. :(

[candy331]

50. frustrated lefty, it was the hand writing on the wall and some of us

read it well but were slapped and knocked down, and told to step in line or get out of line so we did and marched to our deaths.

[jackstraw45]

40. 99.7% probablility of you getting flamed

Sorry..I couldn't resist :)

I respect your anger and frustration....I've felt it too at times today.

[zulchzulu]

41. You can't count air

The untraceable votes from Diebold machines makes it pretty hard to count.

Would anyone you know have the skills to count invisible votes? You should have contacted the Kerry campaign.

We have to move on. 2006 is our year if we stay united. Then we can impeach the murdering chimp.

[RBHam]

43. John Kerry benefitted from BBV during the primaries...

That's why he can't say shit.

[mparker]

44. Kerry wanted to save face

Al Gore got dragged through the mud for prolonging the 2000 election. Kerry probably didn't want to look desperate. Also, I'm sure that he was told that the odds were against any chance of pulling out a victory.

It sucks, but don't blame Kerry for the stupidity of the American voters.

[Shadow30]

47. I agree...

...and think its funny listening to people replying to what you said with a bunch of pointless high minded ideals.The republicans are the wolves and wolves are wolves even if you wish to pretend they are sheep.Kerry gave it up to soon and officially opened the flood gates to mass voter fraud by repubs in the years to come.I have had it with all this drivel,I choose to turn my back on American politics in disgust.I have my own problems to deal with now,to figure out how to make it threw the next few months,the next few years and not be out on the street.
Since 9/11 I have kept an American flag in my bedroom,in the last few months I have asked myself why I kept it up.I came to understand that to me it represented the America that could be,a new one,a better one but today when I heard Kerry conceded I took it down and put it away.I am just a guy that happens to have been born in and live in America and I will take care of myself from now on and fuck the world of politics its all bullshit,all nazi repugs and dems that roll over on command and talk about lovely ideas that come to nothing,its a mess out there,its a dangerous,ugly world and I am sick of alot of nice talk thats just meaningless window dressing.I will worry about how to survive,how to make a few dollars,enough to keep a roof over my head and if I am lucky maybe I can scrape enough cash together to get the fuck out of this pathetic country before it all really falls apart.Let the Bush bots fall behind GW and march and dems sit in dark rooms yelling at each other and tearing apart every last detail of this election to figure out what they did wrong,I want no part of it.
I really don't care if anyone here is pissed about what I am saying or not,this is my last post at DU,I am done with all of it.

[SoCalDemocrat]

49. I'm angry he conceded

We had the legal workings set up. It was expected. He should of just let it run its course. I cannot beleive they are that uninformed to not know what BBV is capable of pulling off. This was not just about some provisional vote ballots in OH.

[Vadem]

60. Exactly! We told the Dems and told them and told them....

about the Blackbox Voting fiasco that would be coming in this election. They did not want to touch the issue with a 10 foot pole! The question is Why??? They all knew and refused to do anything about it. The HAVA is BS and has been from the getgo.

[seaj11]

51. John Kerry and John Edwards, I am proud of you.

Blessed be!

:yourock:

[robbedvoter]

57. For doing what? Not spitting on their bib?

[SoCalDemocrat]

52. WAKE UP DU AND LISTEN: WE MUST FIGHT

We must fight. If we do not fight Electronic Voting now, we might as well kiss off the future. The legal battles we fight today will pave the way for tomorrows Federal election reforms.

Do you think for a second that the GOP are going to give us a single inch of ground that we don't fight them for? Hell no they won't. They will laugh in our faces and call us weak liberals. The only thing they respect is force, and our force now is in the form of legal battles.

The DNC was blocked from inspecting BBV machines in Florida prior to elections to ensure they were not fraudulent and were working properly. We were denied that right, and now we have BBV systems without even a paper audit trail.

I disagree with everyone who thinks we should just move on without a fight. Fight is exactly what we must do. We must fight hard and bitterly in order to reform our federal elections process.

Go and read the forum on voting fraud and irregularities. Look at the thousands upon thousands of cases there. The GOP were phone bank dialing multiple states telling them Kerry wanted to create a constitutional amendment to allow gays to marry. These Rovian tactics must be stopped for good.

How many arrests have you heard about on the news for federal election violations?

How many criminal investigations have been initiated?

I for one do not intend to lie down and be a victim. You can thank people like myself and this poster that we have the guts to stand up to the GOP and fight them to achieve the election reforms to which we should already be entitled under our Constitution and our Democracy.

[jdj]

56. thanks for all your work and enthusiasm

I'm with you on this.

[BlueScreen]

63. SoCal, can you respond to this Salon article that mentions you by name?

If there are mistakes with it, I think many of us would like to know. Or do you think they have a point?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=printer_friendly&forum=132&topic_id=1311455&mesg_id=1311691

[MAlibdem]

58. 60 million democrats?

if it'd been 60 million, kerry would've won

[SoCalDemocrat]

59. More like 63 million

Ask Diebold to explain the difference.

[okieinpain]

61. nope he did the right thing. if he had prolonged this, it would have

just made it harder for the next election. he can continue to question the election, they should spend some of that money he has and investigate the voting patterns.

[tarheel_voter]

62. Kerry is a good man

He did a great job. I wish we could've recounted all the votes but the damn popular vote total was too big to surmount... and the damn margin in Ohio was too big to overcome.

[Snivi Yllom]

64. Kerry's concession speech was the best speech of his campaign

If had spoken using a more positive message and conveyed his inner warmth, convitcions, and compassion with frequency during the race, he might have won.