Will Dean people vote for Kerry if he wins the nomination?

[ringmastery]

Or will you stay home or vote green?

[Padraig18]

1. ABB!

My bottom line. :)

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

5. That's NOT 'their mentality'.

I've seldom read such a patently ridiculous statement here at DU...

[fishguy]

6. You have a picture of Dean on your posts, think about it.

Of all the things that you could have, you have Dean.

[Padraig18]

10. Think about WHAT?

He's the candidate I support, for crying out loud! Kerry supporters have Kerry pics as avatars. Kucinich supporters have Kucinich avatars. Why would I NOT have one of him? :wtf:

[KC21304]

13. I agree. Makes no sense.

[mopinko]

11. we or they?

are you for dean, or just projecting. if you are not a dean supporter, i think your post is just a slur.
i am a dean supporter who is a lifelong dem. most of us are. i know he has brought in a lot of people, maybe some will stay home. but i am sick of this whole line of discussion. seems to me to be equivalent to painting all dean supporters as commies, or something.
what's the loyalty oath going to be- i solemnly swear never to swerve from the party line now that i am a registered voter?
abb, abb, abb ,abb, abb, abb

[Hoppin_Mad]

3. I'll gladly vote for Kerry over bush* -nt-

[asjr]

14. Same here!

n/t

[mot78]

4. The majority will support Kerry, while a small number will go Green

[bowens43]

7. I'll happily vote Kerry.

I draw the line at Clark.

[Toot]

8. I would, even though I'd be deeply disappointed that Dean wasn't Nominee.

I could never vote green after 2000 mess, and the result of *.

[brainshrub]

9. Yes. ABB baby!!!

I'm backing Dean, but I know that all the candidates (Except one) are highly qualified, honorable people.

[Walt Starr]

12. Maybe yes, maybe no

If I remember it's Novemeber 2 and I'm supposed to vote, I guess I'll vote for Kerry. It's not like I'd really give a shit about the election any more.

He doesn't inspire me and should he get the nomination I'd stop paying attention to the election at all. I certainly won't donate or campaign, but if reminded there is an election, I'd probably vote for him.

[KC21304]

15. Now there's an attitude we can all celebrate here on DU.

I will be sure and remind you on Nov 2nd, no matter whom the nominee is.

[Walt Starr]

17. Heh, I doubt you'd be able to

If anybody besides Dean is nominated, I doubt seriously if I'd be visiting any political web sites, let alone DU.

Do you know me IRL?

[mitchum]

20. But there's always the possibility you will change your mind

[Walt Starr]

25. Nope, I've put too much energy and emotion into the Dean campaign

If he doesn't get the nomination, I'm pretty much done with politics. It will be a sign to me that business as usual is here forever.

I just won't give a shit any more.

[mitchum]

42. But if I remember correctly, it certainly took you a long time to decide..

that the Dean campaign was the one in which to put so much time and emotion. Not that there's anything wrong with that...
Walt, we have to get * out of office

[KC21304]

35. Not that I know of, but I do know some stubborn individuals. LOL

When Nov 2nd rolls around, I don't think it will be possible for anyone not to be aware it is election day unless they are in a coma or some similar situation. I sure hope you are not in that situation. I will take even the slightest possibility of a vote for Kerry.

Because of the new rules I had to change my original choice of words after stubborn.

ABB or course.

[Walt Starr]

37. Well, let's look at the reality of the day

I'll be up, out the door, to the train station, and on the train before the polls open. I'll be 35 miles from my polling place all day long and I work, on the average, ten or more hours per day. Then there's the train ride home and I might, just might, have all of fifteen minutes to get to the polls before they close.

If I don't give a shit about any candidates, I just plain say, "fuck it."

[KC21304]

40. Oh, so we will put you down as a maybe.

[newsjunkie]

23. I can't wait to vote everytime

and am exited just to exercise my right....but I sure know what you mean. I will be very disappointed and maybe even alittle bitter if Dean doesnt get the nom. He has the big MO and the inspiration and he can do this. He will make Chimpy look like the ridicuous liar he is. I feel very sure about this like I was about Clinton when he first ran. I worked for Ross Perot at first and then when I learned about Clinton I knew he had something special so I switched. Howard Dean has the charisma and magic too. I can't believe the Clinton's arent working more actively to get him elected. He's the only one who is for real and honestly doing this for the best reasons. :wtf:

[displacedtexan]

16. This is how we differ from repubicans

they concentrate on winning elections; we would rather make a statement than win.
Naderites made their statement in 2000. I certainly hope they're happy. I don't believe Dr. Dean will form a third party if he doesn't win the nomination. I just hope he can inspire his supporters to concentrate on winning.

[Eloriel]

24. He can inspire all he wants

And he has pledged that he will do exactly that. He ENTERED this race because of his horror at what Bush was doing (and the fact that no other Dems were bothering to fight him), you better believe he'll be urging us to vote for *whomever* (and that's about how I'd feel about a non-Dean nominee: whatever).

But what concerns me is -- well, not only am I sick of seeing these daily or more frequent loyalty oath threads, but also -- that I'm getting the feeling that there are candidates and their supporters out there who not only think that their candidate will have OUR vote automatically sewed up if they get the nomination, but that they'll also get access to Dean's organization, all his worker bees and contributor bees.

The thing that people don't seem to understand is this: a large proportion of Dean's supporters are people who had given up on politics entirely and they see in Dean something entirely different, a vision worth voting for, worth working for, worth giving money to. Whyever in the world could they be expected to support (or even vote for, actually) someone who represents the "same ole same ole" wing of the Democratic Party, the wing that had driven them away in the past?

Whoever wants OUR vote -- not to mention our money, time and creativity -- needs to be prepared to earn it, and be worthy of it. So it's up to them, NOT US.

And one more thing. Some aren't going to feel too kindly about whoever represents the Same Ole Same Ole Wing of the Democratic Party (if Dean doesn't get the nom) if they've been guilty of attacking Dean unfairly and misrepresenting his record or statements. That (plus his IWR vote) is one reason I have trouble cuddling up to Edwards as my only other choice in this race -- his unconscionable race-baioting attack on Dean over the Confed flag issue during that debate, something that was all the worse because not only was it purely for his own personal aggrandizement, but it also was engaging in the very same wedge politics the Repugs use.

[Walt Starr]

26. I must admit, Eloriel, a Clark nomination would inspire me.

Unlike the other six still in the race, who would do absolutely nothing to inspire me, a Clark nomination would inspire the hell out of me.

The day that Clark one the nomination, or was nominated as veep by anybody other than Dean, I would be incredibly inspired to find a third party candidate to vote for, support with donations, and work hard in order to campaign AGAINST Clark.

[lurk_no_more]

38. As a Clark supporter

I'm with you, please do!


And then there were none!
” JAFO”

[deminflorida]

39. Give Ralph my regards would ya....

eom

[wabeewoman]

18. I will vote for ANY democratic

nominee. I would vote for anybody but bush. The goal is to get bush out of the white house and take back the country. Staying home or voting for anyone else is not an option for me.

[pasadenaboy]

19. Of course, but if Kerry wants enthusiastic support

he is going to have to come up with a plan to reform the DNC.

One of the reasons I support Dean is that he is trying to reinvent the party and move it away from the same business as usual. I hope whomever the nominee is reforms the DNC. It is a corrupt, ineffective dinosaur.

[Zinnola]

21. I will vote for Kerry

but will not put any time, effort or money towards his campaign. He doesn't inspire me like Dean does. I will just mark his name on the absentee ballot.

[caledesi]

22. ABB! nt

[beyurslf]

27. I will vote for whhoever becomes the Dem nominee.

ABB in November 2004

[Cuban_Liberal]

28. I'm sure that an enormous percentage will.

Most Dean supporters are 'yellow dog Democrats', but some are also Independents and Greens, so I'm sure some won't.

[clarknyc]

29. Why are these questions always asked of Dean supporters?

Why not,"Will Kerry people vote for Dean if he wins the nomination?" Having said that, I think the premise is insincere. It's meant to put supporters on the spot and to, yes, affirm loyalty. Enough.

Edited to affirm loyalty: ABB.

[sangha]

30. Here ya' go!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=129337

[Cuban_Liberal]

32. Oh, a flame war, Part 2.

How lovely. :eyes:

[clarknyc]

33. Thanks!

Just as silly and pointless...

[Paragon]

34. Ummm...

DUH.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=126908&mesg_id=126908

[Paragon]

31. Such crap.

And you wonder why we don't like some of you Kerry supporters.

[wryter2000]

36. Of course

Of course, I'll vote for Kerry. He's a fine man and would make a great president.

[Terwilliger]

41. Will Clark people vote for Dean if he wins the nomination?

Or will you stay home and vote....for somebody else?

That's a legitimate counter-question.

[Cuban_Liberal]

55. A LOT won't, Terwilliger!

Clark's support is MUCH more 'non-transferrable' than Dr. Dean's is, based on my first-hand knowledge as a former Clark supporter.

[creativelcro]

43. Obviously. What are the other options ? Not voting ?

[Ramsey]

44. Of course

I will vote for whoever the Democratic nominee is.

And all the Kerry/Clark/Edwards/Kucinich supporters will vote for Dean if he gets the nod. Right??

[IndianaGreen]

45. This is a question that is based on a false premise.

The question is based on the false premise that all of Dean's supporters are Democrats, many are not, just as many of Clark's supporters are not. I know that a significant percentage of Kucinich's supporters in Indiana are not Democrats either.

Their votes will not automatically transfer to the Democratic nominee. These are people that are deeply committed to an specific issue that trumps all others. I know that some of them are first time voters, having registered just to vote for a peace candidate in the Fall.

I don't see how one can expect them to vote for a candidate that voted for war.

If you want to know the answer to your question, you are wasting your time asking it in DU or in one of the other Democratic boards. I suggest you start visiting the state fairs and the arts fairs, to name only two, during this summer and poll the people there as to whether they think their vote makes a difference, and if it does, ask them if they intend to vote in the Fall and for whom.

[sangha]

47. Your premise is not present

No one claimed that all of Dean supporter's were Dems. Green voters and other 2rd-party voters can vote for the Dem nominee the same way some Dems voted for the Green candidate in 2000.

I don't see how one can expect them to vote for a candidate that voted for war.

Try reading the posts in this thread. A number of Dean supporters say the WILL vote for a candidate that voted for war, even if you don't see how.

[IndianaGreen]

48. I am talking about people that don't normally vote

because they think the entire political system is corrupt, and that there is little difference between the 2-major parties. They will point to those Democrats that have spoken against the aftermath of the invasion of Iraq as proof that Democratic opposition to Bush is based on tactics not on goals.

[sangha]

49. Will people who don't normally vote vote for the Dem in 2004?

You see, the question can be asked without assuming that Dean supporters are Dems, Greens, or 3rd party. Even people who don't normally vote can vote for the Dem in 2004. We have a big tent!

[IndianaGreen]

51. The divisions in the American political establishment

The "big tent" that you speak of, is that the one that prompted DLC Chair and Senator Evan Bayh to call the SWAT team to forcibly remove people that were peacefully assembled in his office's conference room, waiting for the Senator to meet with them to discuss the Iraq war?

Funny that on that same day, a similar group of people were able to meet without incident with Republican Senator Lugar's staffers to discuss their concerns about the then-pending invasion of Iraq.

What gives?

The “Stop Dean” campaign and the divisions in the American political establishment
By David Walsh
14 January 2004

On one level, the controversy surrounding Dean’s candidacy boils down to whether the Democratic Party will entirely cease to compete with the Republicans. Lieberman in particular speaks for that faction of Democrats opposed to any attempt to remove Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and the criminal gang in power.

Dean and those who have endorsed him—like Gore, Bradley and Harkin—represent a somewhat more far-sighted section of the ruling elite, genuinely disturbed by the thrust of the Bush administration’s policies. They have been made increasingly anxious by the collapse of the hopes for an easy victory in Iraq and the implications of an ongoing conflict in that region; the reckless character of Bush’s doctrine of “preemptive war,” the likelihood of further costly wars and the possibility of a genuine military disaster; the shredding of the postwar imperialist alliances, with Europe in particular, and the generally belligerent attitude adopted by the Bush administration toward virtually every regime on earth; and the danger that the administration’s domestic policies may ignite a popular radicalization, under conditions in which the Democratic Party has so discredited itself that it can no longer function as a means of channeling discontent.

All of these concerns are now being exacerbated by increasing unease about the economy, with job growth at a standstill in December, record budget deficits piling up in Washington and the dollar slumping to record lows against the euro. There is real concern that the US is sailing in extremely hazardous economic waters. Last week, former treasury secretary Robert Rubin co-authored a paper warning that the huge budget and trade deficits currently run by the US threatened an Argentina-like catastrophe.

It is not Howard Dean’s intention, of course, to provoke or fundamentally challenge the political establishment, to which at heart he belongs. His aim, backed by figures like Gore in particular, is to refurbish the Democratic Party before it’s too late. That Dean is perceived as a threat, however, provides some indication of the utterly alienated, insular and sclerotic character of the American political setup, its inflexibility and shortsightedness, its almost complete unpreparedness for genuine opposition.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/dems-j14.shtml

[sangha]

52. Huh?

You started out claiming that there was a "false premise" in the question "Will Dean supporters vote Kerry if Kerry wins the nom?". Specifically, you said the question assumed that Dean supporters were all Dems.

I pointed out that non-Dems (including those who don't usually vote at all) could vote for the Dem nominee, so the question does not contain the false premise.

Instead of addressing that, you picked on a phrase I used (ie. "big tent") to attack the Dems over the Iraq issue. Why won't you defend your opinion about the false premise?

[IndianaGreen]

54. I don't have to defend it, you will find out for yourself in November

Republicans and Democrats have been fighting for the same slice of the electorate. The problem is that this "slice" supports Bush on his wars, thinks that his Medicare reforms are good, and loves his tax cuts. If Democrats want to appeal to these voters, you can't win. You cannot defeat someone when the voters approve of his performance. You also cannot outdo Bush on national security. Bush is the one that stood there holding a bullhorn, a fireman to his side, the rubble of the WTC as a backdrop.

How do you win?

Wes Clark has the right idea, which is to attack the image of Bush. It is the image of Bush that a majority of voters approve of. One has to smash this Bush idol to pieces by showing him in all of his ugliness, including his failure to prevent 9/11, and his preoccupation with pursuing a family vendetta against Saddam rather than pursue bin Laden.

I don't see Kerry doing that, or Gephardt, or Edwards. Lieberman is doing the opposite, he is helping prop up Bush's image.

Attacking the image of Bush is not enough to win. One has also to present a clear and distinct alternative to Bush. But that is not enough. Remember what I said about Republicans and Democrats fighting over the same slice of the electorate? To beat Bush, one will also have to capture the imagination and the votes of people that have not participated in the political process for a variety of reasons, such as the ones I mentioned earlier in this thread.

[Lobo_13]

46. He'll get my vote

but he won't get a penny from me, or a minute of labor.

I'd venture a guess that 75% to 90% of the Dean supporters feel the same way.

[9119495]

50. Depends on how Dean goes down in this scenario

If the media continue their gang tackle, and the Gep, Kerry, Lieb debate tactics of all jumping on Dean at the same time keep up, Dean supporters will be alienated. Right or wrong, they will begin to see Dean's drop as a conspiracy of entrenched forces--and they may wait eagerly for the chance to say "I told you so" on November 3.

I am a Dean supporter but I see it heading this way. I am less of a fan of Kerry with each passing day (I still like him a great deal right now), but if Dean goes down, only Kerry will have chance against Bush because he opted out of matching funds. I like Clark quite a bit, but his acceptance of matching funds seals to doom him against Bush no matter how attractive he might be.

[NoPasaran]

53. ABB!

What part of Anybody But Bush isn't clear?

[coloradodem2005]

56. Gladly.

While I am a Dean supporter, I think Kerry would make a good candidate and I would vote, support and campaign for him to beat George Bush. ABB all the way!!!!!

[Fleshdancer]

57. for the 14,596th time....yes, I will vote for the Democratic nominee

whoever that nominee might be.

[IndianaGreen]

59. Loyalty oaths are unbecoming of people that call themselves liberals

particularly when really disloyal people, like Zell Miller who has endorsed Bush, still keep their superdelegate credentials to the Democratic Convention and their committee assignments in the Senate.

[yellowdog]

58. Yes.

nt