If Michael Moore wants to help cause of Democrats....

[PretzelWarrior]

he should think about how to do something with his art and commentary that are a bit more intellectually honest.

As much as F911 was a big wakeup call for a lot of people, it was still too much like his previous polemics--some substance but too much theater and artful editing that told his point of view instead of powerfully laying bear the facts.

I really don't see how he can be seen as a positive unless he completely rethinks his approach to connecting with people.

From this point forward, anything of his in similar vein to his past works will just be preaching to the choir and maybe a shrinking choir.

sorry, that's my real take on the subject.

I kind of wish Madonna, Al Gore, and MMoore had all endorsed Bush. That would have been the kiss of death for him.

[LARED]

1. I agree.

[ulysses]

2. yes. This is all his fault.

:eyes:

[KoKo]

3. Michael Moore does seem to connect with "average people." I didn't

get what you were saying about him. Is it because he makes money? I'd trust Moore over Ken Lay and your average Stock Broker any day..

????

[PretzelWarrior]

5. no. lots of average people including moderate Dems were turned off

why is this an either/or between M. Moore and Ken Lay? Of course, Ken Lay is an evil gnome.

But it doesn't take away from how he fires up the opposition more than he fires up the faithful.

[KoKo]

17. I converted to Georgia Freeper types by taking them to Moore's movie

They both voted for Kerry...their vote was wasted...but they are at least clued in to our side. :shrug:

[Liberal Veteran]

4. I doubt it would matter if Moore made a film that....

...was completely impervious to the criticisms you offer, they would still smear it as propaganda and the guy in the pickup with confederate flag flying off the back in Alabama would immediately say, "Yeah, that Michael Moore is fat fuck who hates America! Get me another beer, Tammy May and some pork rinds!"

[PretzelWarrior]

8. I'm not going for the fat fuck pork rind eating demographic

I'm talking about some of these others who are a bit more moveable. Please. I'm not saying he is the difference maker.

I'm just saying...I don't think he should go away. I respect and admire what he does. He had me at hello, okay?

But get real. Many were turned off..and he is becoming more and more associated with mainstream Dems.

[KoKo]

21. If they were "turned off" by Moore that's odd... The "Chimp" should have

been a bigger turnoff. He sat there while America was attacked reading about a Goat...like Duh...and we are supposed to blame Moore for telling the truth? Give me a break here...you think Michael Moore cost us the election...I wonder why you would think that. Are you against "Free Speech" or something? :shrug:

[GDoyle]

34. Anyone who was "turned off" by Moore...

Wasn't turned off by him or his excellent movie, they were turned off because they were susceptible to the smear campaign that followed. I say Moore's movie helped us big time. Look we BARELY lost this election by 100,000 people in Ohio against the best funded incumbent in history who was "at war" and had 80% approval ratings not too long ago.

GDoyle

[jdj]

6. Mike Moore needs to take on Diebold, do a "Wally and me"

type thing.

I have utmost respect for this man and anyone who criticizes him better have their equivalent creds in order, otherwise I don't want to hear it.

[KittyWampus]

7. This Belongs In Fighting & Acrimony

Pffffffft

[PretzelWarrior]

11. I didn't realize I was fighting. but I understand what you're saying

if the mods want to move it..no skin off me.

[seaj11]

12. It does now, anyway.

[seaj11]

9. preaching to the choir?

I don't think so. In fact, I think F9/11 was a starting point for him, not a high point. I believe F9/11 did inspire discussion and questioning, and THAT is what is important. It may be an unconventional documentary, but that just made it more accessible, not less, to people.

[turquoise tool]

10. Moore of the same

We cant pin it all on Moore. All the violence that occured in the final days of the campaign came from our side. I dont think tire slashing did anything but perhaps energize an already fanatical energy level on the reich.

[Webster Green]

13. Why don't you do it?

Instead of criticizing Michael Moore (who is a God)

[Moonbeam_Starlight]

14. Oh geez dude

Michael Moore stood up and said what ALL of us were feeling and thinking, what all of us KNEW but didn't have that big of a voice to convey (as big as his with a film) and he SPOKE FOR US.

He spoke truth to power and even repukes who watched that movie were shaken by it. THAT'S not connecting?

Give me a fucking break. I admire him so greatly and I don't give a shit what choir he's preaching to, he needs to keep on keepin' on.

If he shuts up, we have lost a lot.

[NNadir]

15. Moore's political activism began with Bush = Gore. Fuck him too.

[sunnybrook]

37. he has seen the error of his ways

didn't you hear that he was directly addressing the "Nader-Impaired" in this election? My thought about Moore these past few days has been more of... I wonder if he is livid that Kerry conceded so quickly... and that he put his rep with far lefties on the line by working his ass off to get Kerry elected. I am more wondering if he is pissed at Hell at Kerry, especially since there are serious questions we all have about Ohio and Florida.

[dennis4868]

16. are you feeling okay?

Michael Moore brought to light facts that the media did not want anyone to know about....if we did not have Michael we would be left with nothing to tell us what is really going on in Iraq, the "7 minutes in the classroom," etc....

[brettdale]

18. Michael Moore got people fired up

With F911 Michael Moore did more to fire people up to work for the democrats than anyone else in history, when i first saw F9/11 people were coming out the therate with a look in thier eyes, that they are going to do everything they can to help beat Bush. He got a lot of people registered who voted (Of course in Ohio those cheats wouldnt of counted them)

He hasnt updated his webpage yet, he just has that picture of the fallen soilders making up Bushs face, I hope hes working on getting out the truth on what happen in this election.

[Hippo_Tron]

19. Gimme a break...

n/t

[RetroLounge]

20. Stupid. Fucking. Post.

RL

[KoKo]

22. No...there are some DU'ers who believe that Moore has turned off the vote

so, there are those of us who think he did great things for "Free Speech and Documentaries."

I frankly think the Faux News viewers need a healthy dose of Moore...and their relatives dragged them to Moore's Movie because there is nothing else out there that challenges Faux...or at that time thier wasn't.

Kerry "tip toed" around the Left Wing of the Dem Party and he's DEAD! Don't crap on me about Moore caused Dems to lose the vote...doesn't wash.

[RetroLounge]

30. Why are you replying to me?

I think we actually agree...

RL

[alarcojon]

23. Partial Agreement

There are plenty of intellectually honest, eye-opening films out there which will never reach one thousandth the audience Moore reaches. So we need someone like Moore out there, someone who can get a wide range of people to see his/her films.

At the same time, I agree that Moore could be more intellectually honest in his films. However, why should Moore stay completely honest, when his counterparts on the right rarely do? Groups like FAIR, MediaMatters, etc. document day after day how Limbaugh, Hannity. O'Really, and the whole bunch of them lie through their teeth habitually, effortlessly, and with a straight face. Does it make an f'ing bit of difference? If the right calls Moore on his embellishments and he gets more negative press, it is not Moore's fault, it is merely a reflection of the fact that the right-wing echo chamber is far more effective than ours.

If Moore made a film as you describe, I would see it eagerly. So would many others, though likely far fewer than went to see F911. But the right would STILL skewer it. They would just make shit up about it and their typical brain-dead follower would just lap it up.

The problem isn't Michael Moore.

[PretzelWarrior]

27. well, I can see this. I guess that's why DU is great

because we are not afraid to disagree with one another, we can temper our views...sometimes amplify them.

I will be making posts and taking actions on multiple issues related to the other parts of the problem--MEDIA slant and how we fight that.

[alarcojon]

29. I agree, open honest dialogue

and strategizing is what we need, now more than ever.

[Julien Sorel]

24. If Moore did dry, "just the facts" documentaries, people would

ignore him, just like they ignore all the other dry documentaries.

[EndElectoral]

25. Bullshit! Moore's F911 was brilliant. It may have came out too soon!

Don't blame Moore...blame the assholes who voted for Bush...if they really did vote for Bush. the crap I'm reading makes me wonder....Diebold, and absentees and provisionals.....

Looking at what happened in Broward and Lucas makes me wonder...

Moore was talking about waht was going on in Cleveland, and I gotta tell ya, it could have been much bigger there for Kerry....not sure why it wasn't....

[Q]

26. F911 is one of the best selling documentaries in history...

...and it wasn't because the facts were laid out so YOU could understand them.

- You seem to think that anyone that's not on Bush's* side must be a Democrat. Moore has never suggested that he's a Democrat...he's an independent film producer.

- You want facts? The FACT is that the American media has sold out to the Right. Moore used a 'light' documentary format to get information to people that they needed to know about the Bush* government.

- It's too bad that those who try to help the weak-kneed Dems in a time of crisis never get the credit they deserve. Moore did more to help the Dem party (by exposing the Bush* criminals) than anyone else. The sad part of all of this is that the party didn't take his lead and actually DO SOMETHING about it.

[UpsideDownFlag]

28. um, F911 was massive. nt

[JimGinPA]

31. Anyone Know Why His Website Is Down Now?

nothing on there now but this;

[The Flaming Red Head]

32. Don't blame him. Blame this rigged election.

Blame CNN, Fox, and MSNBC. Start screaming fraud and impeachment and keep on as long as Bush is in office. This is not a mandate for Bush's policies. We should make it as difficult as possible for this adminstration to continue. That's what we should do, not fight with each other.

I actually think we won the popular vote and because of people like MM. I don't believe that Bush won, not for a second.

[leesa]

33. This disgusts me! This man worked his ASS off working against Bush

and you have the nerve to critique him! What the hell did YOU do?? Fuck off!

[lynintenn]

35. Maybe Moore should do a documentary on Diebold machines

[Cocoa]

36. give an example for Moore to follow

I thought F-911 was a near-perfect indictment of Bush.

If you can think of a better work, according to your criteria, please name it.

[Onlooker]

38. You're blaming Michael Moore?

Why don't we just become more rightwing than the Republican Party. That way we're sure to win.