Freeloader Red States

[bain_sidhe]

How do we stop the flow of tax money from the blue states to the red states? If they hate the "blues" so much, let 'em build their own damn roads and fund their own damn schools and pay their own welfare bills. I'm sick of subsidizing my own oppression.

[American Tragedy]

1. Did you read the Great Divide?

The red states, for all their bitching about taxes and government programs, are most dependent on federal subsidy, and the blue states generate the revenue for the government that funds it.

This happens within my state too. Louisvillians are far more likely to vote Democratic and are responsible for a lot of state funding. In turn, the areas in eastern and western Kentucky vote overwhelmingly Republican yet depend upon welfare and demand high funding for roads and infrastructure. This is apparently why they have pristine four-lane highways that are hardly used, and we are stuck with extremely narrow single or two-lane used by thousands of automobiles downtown with major car wrecks daily.

[bain_sidhe]

2. No, but apparently I should!

But Powells lists three books with that title. Which one is it?

The Great Divide
T Davis Bunn

The Great Divide
Mike Bingham

The Great Divide
Frank M Robinson

[American Tragedy]

3. I believe it is by John Sperling. Go to this site:

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/

[RapidCreek]

17. South Dakota

For every one dollar in income tax a liberal hating South Dakotan pays....three from the tax dollars paid by blue states come back in the form of federal subsidies.

RC

[RPM]

21. two faced

"Do unto others" --> Discriminate against blacks and gays
Bitch about welfare queens in the cities --> Take more fed tax $s then they pay in.

Fuck 'em - they don't know how much they hate themselves.

I certainly hate them.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

45. yep...this whole posting is about two-faced ideals n/t

[alwynsw]

26. You must be referring to I-65 and east.

Insofar as projects in western KY are concerned, most of the money that came into my home area came as a direct result of the hard work by Wendelll Ford and William Natcher. Louisville helped elect Ford, but didn't do shit for Natcher because his dsitrict didn't include Louisville.

Even the Dems and other progressives in the rest of the state are getting tired of Louisville crying poor.

Concerning the roads in and around Louisville, Louisvillians have no one to blame but themselves. I've lived and worked in Louisville long enough that I've seen the squawking and crying every time a road/highway improvement issue comes around. The usual cry is that residents want a wider road but they refuse to sacrifice their front yard. Then the city council, now metro council, can't or won't file for eminent domain to condemn - and pay for - the needed right of way.

[AbbeyRoad]

4. I've been reading about this on the Daily Kos website

Someone had linked to it earlier in another DU thread.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/3/151749/966

[bain_sidhe]

5. Kick because that is a GREAT thread

I'm not a member of the Kos board, but day-um, that's a good discussion.

[oldhippie]

6. What if the Red Counties..........

stopped sending food to the Blue Counties? Look at a map.

Be careful about hasty divisions.

[Beetwasher]

7. Uhh, They Don't Just SEND Us Food, We BUY It!

Let them refuse to sell it to us, it would be THEIR loss beause they'd be refusing even MORE of our money. We'll get our produce from mexico and our grain from Canada...

[pk_du]

11. And since this is fighting and acrimony...we dont just buy it

we pay them subsidies to grow/raise-it AND pay them again when the price they get doesnt meet minimum agreed levels.

[Beetwasher]

12. Correct, We Fucking Buy It TWICE!!!

At least...We pay them NOT to grow shit and we subsidize them to grow some shit and then we BUY most of the shit they DO grow...Fucking welfare queens...

[Rockholm]

9. Fine. You won't get our subsidies to PLANT food.

[Guaranteed]

32. Don't you mean subsidies to NOT plant food? nt

[LuminousX]

10. um, Blue States BUY the food

Blue States could buy food from Mexico if need be. Red States don't generate enough state income to meet their infrastructure needs. Maintaining those long stretches of highway in Montana is costly. Keeping airports active without Federal funds would be impossible. Hell, even the rail lines that help move the food from the Red States to Blue States were paid for by the Blue States.

[Touchdown]

16. And, California grows more food than any other state.

...mainly because of the controlled irrigation they have with the aquaduct, their agriculture is more productive than any in the farm belt (red states). Something on Discovery I was watching last year.

[QC]

28. And where in California do they grow that food?

It sure ain't in Berkeley.

Ever been out to the Central Valley? It makes Utah look like May Day in Moscow.

[Guaranteed]

33. What about it? I was born there. nt

[Cats Against Frist]

37. LOL

That's why I come here. The people have the snappiest stuff to say. Even in this time of disaster, I can still appreciate a smarmy comment. :)

[AllyCat]

23. Good thing for them, huh?

So they have their little infrastructure to market what few wares they have.

Maybe they'll realize the obvious way to increase their market is biomass fuels and hemp. De-criminalize the cultivation of commercial-grade hemp...a whole world of products opens up: paper, clothing materials, food, oil for fuel or cooking, animal bedding...just to name a few. Doesn't need much water. Doesn't need fertilizer or pesticide. Grows anywhere. They would have a great cash crop and the blue states would have the brainpower and money to get the refineries working to make bio-diesel.

We wouldn't be completely screwing them. It actually could be a nice, mutual relationship that the blue states control. The environment could be cleaner. We could demand organic farming practices that reduce emissions and the use of toxic chemicals. Their workers would be healthier and have some pride in creating a quality product.

One red state decides to pass some homophobic legislation in their midterm elections? We just boycott their products and go to another state. Their wallets will start to dictate their thinking instead of their miserable misinterpretation of a liberal peace-activist's teachings 2000 years ago.

[tedzbear]

36. I dare 'em!

I live in Los Angeles and California grows more than enough to feed all of us in this state.

[Hello_Kitty]

8. Well if the * administration pushes through more Fed. tax cuts

You'll get your wish.

[zydeco]

13. States that do not have state taxes shouldn't be

allowed, in emergencies, FEMA funding. One real good example would be Florida. Don't want to pay, don't get to play.

[QC]

30. Florida doesn't have taxes?

Damn, I need to find out where that big chunk of my income is going!

[SoCalDem]

40. They use the hotel occupancy tax and tourism money

so they do not have to have an state income tax.. BUT I also think they give HUGE sweetheart deals to the hotels and entertainment industry, so I wonder how much they "actually" collect..

I DO know that FEMA has dumped a TON o Money into Florida, and MOST of it goes to businesses...NOT individuals.. They must duke it out with insurance companies and faith-based charities.

[sherilocks]

44. Check the state taxes on your phone, mobile and land line,

satellite radio, cable, dish, dsl, etc. Add them up and multiply by 12, if you think you aren't paying state taxes. Then write to Jebbie and thank him for not "raising" your taxes.

[PSU84]

14. Red state welfare quantified....

From "The Great Divide: Retro vs. Metro America" by John Sperling.

Retronomics is supported by two pillars:
(1) the extraction industries—agriculture, oil, gas, metals mining, and forestry—and (2) national political power based on the alliance between the Southern, Prairie, and Rocky Mountain states. This political power ensures a flow of subsidies for the extraction industries and the siting of federal facilities—military bases, shipyards, atomic energy, and military testing grounds—that in turn ensure a flow of payments for personnel and maintenance. Altogether,
the excess of these payments over tax revenue collected amounted to just under a trillion dollars in the decade 1991–2001. They constitute welfare for the rich and middle class in Retro America, while Republicans do everything in their power to eliminate
welfare for the Metro poor. In short, Retro America prospers because it is on the dole and aggressively anti-Metro.

The Metro winners are Arizona, Florida, Hawaii, Maine, Rhode Island, and Pennsylvania. The Retro losers are Georgia, North Carolina, and Texas. The 30 winners win largely because they receive subsidies
for their extraction industries and/or funding for national defense, including atomic energy. Among the Metro winners, Arizona and Florida receive agricultural subsidies but also significant Social Security payments. Alabama was first in the winner column,
taking in more than $100 billion beyond what it paid in taxes in the decade. Texas was the only Retro state that was a significant loser, but its losses were dwarfed by the big Metro losers. California led the way, paying $253.5 billion over what it received in subsidies. But California was not alone as a big loser: Illinois, New York, New Jersey, Michigan, and even little Connecticut had losses of more than a hundred billion dollars.

http://www.retrovsmetro.org/downloads/chpfull/ch2_full....

[bain_sidhe]

15. Thanks! Great stuff on that site as well.

I'd heard of the book, but for some reason I thought the title was "Retro vs Metro" - and a search under "Great Divide" didn't turn it up at Powells. " Retro VS Metro" does, but it lists it as "not in stock" :(

Thanks again for the info. I knew Michigan was a net giver, but I didn't know it was in the top ten.

[AbbeyRoad]

18. Kick

States Receiving Most in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

D.C. ($6.17)
North Dakota ($2.03)
New Mexico ($1.89)
Mississippi ($1.84)
Alaska ($1.82)
West Virginia ($1.74)
Montana ($1.64)
Alabama ($1.61)
South Dakota ($1.59)
Arkansas ($1.53)


States Receiving Least in Federal Spending Per Dollar of Federal Taxes Paid:

New Jersey ($0.62)
Connecticut ($0.64)
New Hampshire ($0.68)
Nevada ($0.73)
Illinois ($0.77)
Minnesota ($0.77)
Colorado ($0.79)
Massachusetts ($0.79)
California ($0.81)
New York ($0.81)

[Azure]

19. Yes. This is the movement we need to be building.

Forget all of the old plans and strategies. They don't work, and we know it. What we need now is a move toward this "new federalism." Give the red states what they want - cut federal taxes to the bone. Then move to blue states and make up for the tax cuts with state taxes.

The red states, suddenly yanked from the teat, will implode. After a few years of it, they will be falling all over themselves to get the liberals back in government.

Give them the rope they have been asking for. We know what they'll do with it.

[drhilarius]

20. Wrote a thread about it...

it's pretty long, fairly ruthless, written in anger, and will most likely get me flamed.

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=1313966>

[AbbeyRoad]

24. I'm increasingly thinking this could be a viable strategy

I'd enjoy seeing the weight of the Right's own hypocrisy used against them. They say they want increased autonomy for states, tax cuts, and smaller government. Yet liberal Blue States (Illinois here) are the ones forking over funds to areas that vote against all of our best interests?

Most of us are going to suffer in the next four years, because ignorance reigns supreme. Maybe we need to get ruthless, drhilarius. No flames from me.

[Democat]

22. Many of the red states also get "Electoral Vote" welfare

A single vote in most red states is worth much more than a vote in the big blue states like New York and California.

They get "electoral" welfare on top of their financial welfare.

[malatesta1137]

25. my feelings exactly.

AND we in the blues states are more likely to be victims of the terrorists that Bush is recruiting.

[AllyCat]

27. This idea going nuts at DailyKos

Over 600 posts on this topic. I really think we should seriously look at how to make this work. We have started from the pissed off position, but really this could be a win-win for just about everyone (with the blue states firmly in the driver's seat) :spank:

[Azure]

29. Yes, I agree. This ought to be looked at.

There should be websites, proposals, and platforms in the works, designed to speak to both Republicans and Democrats. Repukes will go for the tax-cut/smaller government bait, and Dems will like the idea of letting the red states reap what they've sown. This could sell across the board, and fast. Let's get to work.

If this is done right, it will be brilliant.

[Robert Oak]

31. it would be great if they could put a budget amendment n/t

or put it as a ballot inititive no state can receive more federal money
percentage than received in a tax base.

[chicagojoe]

34. I'm not going to let this thing die. Let's all be VERY noisy about it

[chicagojoe]

35. I'll be writing to Sen. Richard Durbin today.

And then every day, until this causes a buzz.

[AbbeyRoad]

38. I already sent him a message on it

so that makes two of us :)

[SoCalDem]

39. In truth, WE cannot.. But we can.....buy selectively, and we can

move Dem owned businesses to blue areas.. take employees with and starve the red state of tax revenues AND EVs through population loss..

[tedzbear]

41. Maybe we should pay extra local and state tax so we can...

deduct it from our federal tax!

Or is that implausible?

[chicagojoe]

42. I'm digging this. Cold Civil War. Crush The Red !!!!!!!!!!!

(on edit)
The Radical Right constantly whines about the "redistribution of wealth". What are they going to do when the wealth is no longer being redistributed to their constituents who will STARVE and DIE
without it ?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

43. wow...this is the exact same argument people use

for attempting to wipe out welfare. I mean...wow.

Fuck them if they can't do it...they don't like us working people any way. If they can't get by without my money they don't deserve to be alive...

Same shit...different mouths...

theProdigal