IT'S NOT ABOUT THE FACTS!! FRAMING ARGUMENTS!! George Lakoff!!

[jab105]

It is NOT about the facts...

Hearing Lakoff, and reading this excerpt from his book (I'm buying it on amazon now):

http://www.chelseagreen.com/images/DTE_Sampler.pdf

That is the key, the election, no matter if we actually won it by a few points (and lost it by * cheating) or if the loss was valid...we all agree, it should NOT have been close...facts are on our side...

BUT FACTS DON'T MATTER!!
We will NEVER EVER win with facts, sorry but it is true...so...WE MUST FORGET ABOUT FQACTS RIGHT NOW (not in the long run, we can use facts to our advantage, but its not *that* important)

What killed this for the democrats (and has kept us on a downward slide for so long) is:

1. We keep moving to the right, to try to get the Republicans on their own issues, AND MANY OF YOU ON HERE EARLIER TODAY SAID THIS VERY THING...that will NEVER work...don't bother...there are two world views...progressive (a nurturing parent type)...and the conservative (a strict disciplinarian type)...some people are one or the other (I'm definitely more into nurturing)...BUT many people are a little of BOTH...if we frame it so that they SEE why it is wise to be nurturing, then WE win on values...

3. the Republicans could frame in a two word phrase "tax relief", "partial-birth abortion", "tort reform" what it takes us 2 paragraphs to defend...we need to come up with phrases that express issues...there was another thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=2589462#2590868

That showed how easy it is to actually do this...WE COULD DO THIS, HERE!!!

Birth Tax...you guys came up with that in 20 minutes...and it is brilliant...USE IT, over and over and over again!!

4. We need to be on the attack, we should never be on the defensive...

5. The right is coming up with ideas, multiprong ideas that fulfill many goals...we need to do the same...the right is all about the IDEA, the left is all about helping THE PEOPLE...and we have to do that more and more as

6. Focus on one idea at a time, for a certain period of time, and then continue with that language, ALWAYS!!

7. WORK TOGETHER!!!! if you have an idea that you think is important...great...but be patient so that we can all COLLECTIVELY achieve our goals...don't get at each others throats...must work together...AND, it will help us build references for the future...

So far there is one progressive think tank that I know of:
http://www.rockridgeinstitute.org/

Lakoff's argument is that there needs to be more...a constant assault...one think tank can't do that by itself!!

So, this is what I propose:

As a DU community, we become a REAL (AND ORGANIZED) think tank for ideas...we can easily do this...we are very powerful already, and only going to get more powerful...and there are some brilliant, brilliant minds here...

EDITTED TO SHORTEN, see SECOND post for the rest...

PS-Write to me, I will answer every post, until I fall asleep...try to keep me awake!!

[sangh0]

1. I's not about facts, issues, left, right, center, or any label

It's about values. We have to talk about them.

[jab105]

3. Agreed...

we will NEVER win by putting up a moderate...NEVER!

It isn't about a Southern moderate democrat...its about framing the argument so that the PEOPLE see our values in our argument...because from there, they will also see their own values!!

[sangh0]

6. That was pretty ironic

You just agreed with me when I said it wasn't about left right or center, and followed it with "we will NEVER win by putting up a moderate...NEVER!"

[jab105]

12. heh heh...you are right...I've been up since 6am...

my bad:)

to be more specific...

Putting up a moderate SPECIFICALLY because they are a moderate is NEVER going to win it!!

sorry...:)

[sangh0]

20. No problem

In fact, thanks for the chuckle, AND the gracious response.

[jab105]

30. heh heh...my pleasure

:)

[Hamlette]

24. actually, we did win with a moderate, Clinton

but that's NOT the point. The point is they can't hear us for the republican noise machine.

I've been screaming all day (well, posting here all day) about this very issue.

We need Lakoff's ideas and MANY think tanks. Find your favorites and sign up to contribute every month. Just like we did this year for Kerry et al.

We also need an alternative to the Federalist Society.

It's a start.

[jab105]

26. WE CAN BE A THINK TANK!!

I can't think of a more incredible opportunity than having 50000 progressives in one place...

WE CAN DO IT!! Can you imagine the number of ideas, of three word phrases that WE, HERE could come up with...

Contribute with your ideas...

[NewJeffCT]

46. Center for American Progress is a good one

It was started by a former Clinton guy... I love their daily "Progress Report" emails. They give you a lot of good talking points backed up with facts.

http://www.americanprogress.org/

[jab105]

50. And we can collectively be another...

that's the point, having one isnt good enough, the right wing has tons of them...and they are always producing ideas, so they are always on offense...that's where we are missing the boat...if we just have one we are always trying to catch up!!

[indigo32]

10. right.... OUR values.

values that everyone can share.

[jab105]

14. It is ONLY about values...WHY HAVEN'T OUR POLITICIANS REALIZED THIS!!!!!!!

the people who vote for Bush don't think that (our collective) **we** have values...

It seems like a crazy thing to us, but it is BRILLIANT, because that is HOW they framed the argument!!

Because WE haven't defined OUR values!!

[jab105]

2. COntinued...

First, I propose that we find words, simple three word maximum to frame our ideas...no longer giving in to their ideas...theirs are not stronger, they are just framed better...this can be done cheap...

As we grow stronger, collectively, we can begin to come up with policy ideas that further our causes...

For example: The republicans propose tort reform:
reduces the number of cases that lawyers can file, reduces the monetary amounts that lawyers mae, lawyers go out of business...and then THE REPUBLCIAN big businesses don't get sued!!

We CAN DO THAT...we have a 50,000 strong community to do this with!!

We can do this...TOGETHER!!!


Please voice your opinion on this...from there, we can start coming up with themes, aat first, we can even do monthly themes...

Everyone in our group has to write at least two letters to the editor, or call into two radio stations...get at least two mentions out there per month...and use the "term of the month"...for example Baby tax...EASY!!

We can do more from there, but that could be the start of a HUGE thing!!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

4. I agree with you but this is not the forum

Unfortunately, here on DU, we will get too much DISAGREEMENT !@#**@!*!#@ from the masses. People who want a framing-oriented think-tank (and I am one of them and a huge fan of Lakoff!) should form our own mailing list.

[jab105]

8. That is Lakoff's point...that there are different types of nurturing

parents...but they are all interrelated...

And, we have to find a way to wor together...

If we can't do it here, then PM me, and I'll give you my email address, and we will organize our own group...I would donate all the money for that, and my husband is a web designer...that wouldn't be a problem...

BUT, I do think that DU can work together if we have one collective goal...and I think we really do...to not let something like this happen again...

This is the key to that!!

CONTRIBUTE HERE PEOPLE...this really is the key...there are 50,000 people here!!

I'm not depressed any more...I'm actually fighting...and it fucking feels good!!!

[Heath.Hunnicutt]

38. I misspoke. It's a _great_ idea.

And I am about to PM you, all I am saying is that this forum is a good place to organize if not execute it. ;)

Lakoff kicks butt. I have yet to read his latest (third!) political work.

[incapsulated]

5. If there is any hope for this party...

Absorbing and utilizing Lakoff's ideas is one of the best places to start.

We need a Liberal Think Tank with him at the helm.

[jab105]

11. We don't even need him at the helm...

WE can be at the helm guided by his books and insight...

We cant say that he needs to be at the helm, because that is an excuse to not do it...just using three word phrases would have an impact...

If we have over 1000 people spreading these phrases...for example...Birth tax...then it WILL make an impact...

WE will start the think tank...either HERE, or branching off from here...it is up to us...

He has just provided the framework again...

BUT, we can NOT fight with FACTS...forget about the facts...that is the LAST STEP...the first step is framing the argument!!

[incapsulated]

39. Have you read...

His entire analysis of why the rethugs have such power?

This has been years, decades, in the making. And they started by gathering up their best and brightest and putting them in think tanks (which they fund generously) to think up all this shit. That's where they get their talking points from, their economic and political gameplans from.

They also put their money in the media, and pushed for regulations that would help them to control that media message as they bought up the airwaves. They buy up books written by their rightwing hacks in bulk, to keep them atop the bestseller list. And on and on.

Just reading a book or using a few phrases isn't enough. They didn't get to where they are without being incredibly organized and well funded.

[truth2power]

7. I've been saying it over and over and over.

Whenever someone posts that they're trying to convince a Bushbot of something and need facts, I just sigh. It's not about facts. These people are working out of the primitive brain. It's about pleasure, pain, fight, flight. Facts don't matter. Logic doesn't matter. Waste of time.

[jab105]

15. I've just realized that...and I'm going to be practicing this very thing

on my mother this weekend...

Because she has said often that the liberals are diametrically opposed to everything she believes in...

And, I could not even grasp that...I could not understand what in the world she was talking about...but she knows how the republicans FRAME values...

BUT, the democrats never framed values, they just use facts...

And without the framework, facts truly dont matter!!

[Southsideirish]

9. Give the person in the balcony a shiny new silver dollar!

(That's you!!)

[jab105]

16. I accept...see guys, we have our first contribution...we are on our way!!

heh heh:)

[GreenPartyVoter]

13. Election reform comes into play here.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[jab105]

17. I dont think now it is really about election reform...not right now...

focus on that later, when we have built something from this...now is about framing the argument...

[phish420]

21. I see no reason we can't do both...

...we are the party that can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[jab105]

22. That's his argument...there is too much involved in focusing...

for too long we have been walking and chewing gum at the samae time...but that puts us on the defensive...let's become incredibly skilled at chewing gum...blowing bubbles, what have you...and THEN try to walk...once we get down framing the ARGUMENT, then we can use that frame to frame electionreform...

let's choose to focus on one thing at a time...


We often miss how brilliant the Republicans are because they focus so intently on one thing...

BUT, they are in power of all branches of government, and we have zero...so go figure...

[A Simple Game]

41. We can walk and chew gum, but

the republicans own the chewing gum factories(ability to do election reform).

We do need to reduce everything to a simple meme, and be associated with the meme. What do you think of when you hear tax cut...republican, abortion reform...republican, stop terrorists...republican, etc.

I don't remember who said it, but,it's true. Something to the effect of, "I don't care if you think good or bad of me, just remember my name". Name recognition, or meme recognition is 90% of the game. And it's A Simple Game!

[GreenPartyVoter]

57. Framing the argument won't mean a thing if

the GOP still control the ballot boxes.

Kerry did ok framing the argument this time. Not great if you didn't see the debates, but ok. Well enough that we GOTV and beat the pubbies fair and square. But then the RW dipped into the ballot boxes and made Kerry's votes disappear. x(

So by all means, yes, work on improving the argument as it's a good cause, but definitely fix the BBV problem first then work on other election issues after.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[BeFree]

18. I got a few non-fact factoids

Stop paying taxes, it's your money

End big government now!

Get the government out of our bedrooms.

Let the rich run the country.

Oil is worth $10 a gallon, so quit whining.

Every politician tested for drugs.

Abolish alcohol sales.

Give governmnet money too churches.

************

Fight craziness with even crazier shit, eh?

[jab105]

25. EXACTLY!!

You got it...that's what it is...its about words, not facts...
It is Orwellian, but you cant use the term orwellian...

Every time they talk about tax relief...you have to say "birth tax"...birth tax...repeat, birth tax...

Dont even SAY the word tax relief, that will make them think of lowering taxes...

Say:

I do not support a birth tax. Every child born into the US has a birth tax of $100,000 on him that he will have to pay. I do not support a birth tax, that is why I do not support President Bush's policies of raising deficits now for babes to have to pay off in the future.

So, they will never HEAR the word relief, they will hear the word tax...and they will be left with the picture of babies paying taxes, which is the opposite of what they want...

[msongs]

29. name the dem who endorsed and supported the Lakoff view:

bingo, Howard Dean. thank yew very much

Msongs
dean obama 2008
www.msongs.com/political-shirts.htm

[jab105]

33. Cool...let's all get on the bandwagon then...

this is going to be where change really starts!!

I think DFA is something that will help this as well...I feel more motivated to get bac involved with my local DFA, not less!!

[BeFree]

31. But that's scary: a birth tax

Don't want to scare the sheeple<grin>

How 'bout this: No child should be burdened with a birth tax, but each and every child born, already owes the rest of us $100,000. Thank God they can't vote!


*********************

How do you spell relief? No new Taxes! Our kids will support us.

[jab105]

34. I want to scare the fucking shit out of the sheeple!!

Bush is proposing a BIRTH TAX...

SCARY...good, fuckers!!

Never say it as the negative though...shoulda coulda woulda...doesn't matter...

Thanks to GW, THEY ARE BURDENED!!

And it is his fault...

This is where peoples values will come into play, because it is not right to burden the babies with a birth tax...darn it...its just not right!!

[NYCGirl]

58. I prefer Lakoff's phrase "Baby Tax". I think it's even stronger.

NT

[phish420]

19. How about "Original Values"

As per point 3. I feel we have strayed from the original principles on which this country was founded. Since it's 'values' the sheeple like, "Original Values" seems to pop in my mind.

[jab105]

27. What about FOUNDING VALUES!!

Original, might mean new...

Founding means like our founding fathers...

Our country needs to go back to our founding values!!

Great idea...excellent...we need more of this...I will use this term, actively myself...

We need to pick one term per month and just hammer it home...then from then on, always refer in terms of those words...always...

[PurityOfEssence]

23. we need to actively use the term "Class Warfare"

not shy away from it. We need to actively point out, using that term, that the privileged in this society are deliberately subjugating the poor and middle class. When they cry foul, we should say that THEY'RE the ones fighting class warfare, while we're fighting against it.

The rich who don't want to pay their taxes are freeloaders; mercifully, there are many rich people who do understand their obligation to society, but there are far too many who don't.

This is one of those terms that terrifies the right, and it should; we should vigorously use it against them.

[jab105]

28. That one might be hard to use initially because the right has already

frames the term "class warfare" as a negative thing...

This would be something we could work to tae back...first we have to take back the term, and then we can use it against them...

Right now, they dont have to be scared of the term, because they have defined it, and every time WE use it, people thinkk of THEIR definition!!

[suigeneris]

37. Agreed!

I've thought the point you are making is exactly correct for years now.

Charging class warfare is a cynical way Republicans have effectively strangled this charge in the womb before liberals had a chance to launch it. We should see this ruse for what it is and actively and consistently charge Republicans with class warfare. Examples can make it stick.

How is this for a little insider support, and don't miss the wheat for the chaff: From David Brooks, NYT,
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/02/opinion/02brooks.html?ex=1100410449&ei=1&en=9cc9ab06dc13b1c8

"I'm frustrated that Bush didn't build the governing majority that was there for the taking. He came to power with good ideas on how to move the G.O.P. beyond the Gingrich stall. But time and again, he abandoned his reformist strategy to give spoils to the G.O.P. donor base.

"To take one small example: on environmental policy, he showed interest in moving to a flexible, market-based system that would have cleaned the environment better than the current system. But too often rules were written to please key industries. Voters who could have been turned on by new, effective approaches were instead appalled at unseemly self-dealing."

[Hardball]

32. Truth matters

Is it wise to jump on board any particular bandwagon in th aftermath of a stunning and shocking defeat?

There are a lot of interesting ideas here and many of them are actually good ideas, but I think a deep soul-searching is in order before committing to any one strategy or tactic for the next battle when it's a good 2 years away.

BushCo will get another year of "honeymoon" status now with the public that "elected" him because the stigma of illegitimacy has been lifted. If anything, I would consel everyone to take an entire month off from political arguments and reflect on what just happened. Talk to your family, neighbors and co-workers without regard to who they voted for, and without political argument of any kind. Decompression, if you will.

This instant argument, i.e. Facts Don't Matter seems to put us on a slippery slope of sorts where the next phase is Truth Doesn't Matter. What unnerves me is that for the other side it is absolutely true that Facts Don't Matter. The other side flies in the face of truth on a daily basis and the only reason they haven't espoused Truth Doesn't Matter is because none of them has voiced it yet.

Facts matter. In any event they should matter because our great democratic experiment in this country is really and truly over the moment facts and truth no longer matter to either side. Maybe it's too late. Maybe we've passed the point of no return where our system of education has failed beyond our capacity to fix it. I don't know. If people are stupid enough to sign up willingly for an Age Of Anti-Enlightenment then I'm not sure the best way forward is to join them.

[jab105]

35. I appreciate the response...but facts do not matter...not if they

are using terms that don't require facts to back them up...

Again, think about the term tax relief...think of Its your money...

No it isn't...
And no its not...

Those phrases aren't anywhere near facts, but they use them...

THAT is why it isn't about facts...WE have an advantage BECAUSE facts are ALSO on our side...

Thats why democrats SHOULD always win the argument, because facts are on our side, but the republicans have spent more than 30 years muddling the facts by framing the arguments...

And, we can NOT win by facts alone...impossible...

We have seen evidence of this...we had all the facts on our side, and we lost, because we didn't frame the argument...

We already see the evidence, we just need to follow up by framing our own argument...and not for an hour or a day, but consistently over time...building up to it!!

[A Simple Game]

42. Nobody is saying to lie.

OK the truth is, you need to frame your "facts" into simple memes or talking points that allow the listener to take out of them what they want. In other words, be truthful but vague and simple enough to allow the listener hear what they want to hear.

[jab105]

44. Exactly, its not about whether or not the facts are on your side...

its about framing the argument...because without the framework for the argument, the facts dont matter...

But, we are lucky because the facts just so happen to also be on our side...

[sangh0]

51. I think you're misrepresenting Lakoff's idea

He doesn't say that "facts don't matter". His point is that facts are not the deciding factor. How they are presented and how they are framed are JUST AS important as the facts. This doesn't mean that the facts don't matter. It means that facts are not the ONLY THING that matters.

Lakoff is saying that we should use language that communicates our values in addition to communicating the facts. Lakoff is saying that many, if not most, people think about politics in terms of family dynamics. This means that "War for oil", no matter how true, may not be as effective as "We shouldn't be a bully"

[jab105]

54. I think we are saying the same thing, and misinterpretting each other...

I'm saying exactly what you are saying in your post...the title of the thread was meant to sensationalize the argument, to get people to click on it...

Language is as essential as facts are...that is the point, facts don't matter in the big picture if you haven't framed your argument properly...because they see your facts through the Republ;ican frame, so they don't get them...

We are agreeing here, not disagreeing...

[sangh0]

56. Thanks

Sorry for being aggresive about that point, but I sense many are perceiving the sensationalism as meaning that we should abandon our positions, which is not the message we're both trying to promote.

[jab105]

36. Falling asleep now...BUMP me if you think this is a valid plan...

n/t

We gotta start somewhere!!

[Trahurn]

40. Spin It Anyway You Like

All I know is that both election 2000 and 2004 both involving Bush the exit polls did not jive with the final tally. It has always worked beautifully in all other elections. But not in the last two Bush elections. Post Mortum it all you want. When the numbers are tampered with it matters not what you could have said or done. If a candidate cannot have each and every lawful vote credited to his name and by the same toke no more than a lawful vote as the case may be.
Sorry. Editorialize all you want. This was rigged from the start and until we can stop that we will be here weeping just like we are right now on all future elections.

[NewJeffCT]

49. The problem is

The problem is that nobody believes this is true and by the time 2008 rolls around, Diebold et al will have had 4 more years to improve their vote shoplifting technology, making it that much harder to trace.

If we can start framing arguments better, we can start getting the average american onto our side again. But, the RW has been framing for 30+ years now and has a huge edge in finances & infrastructure.

[AnIndependentTexan]

43. We have been Diebolded people and this is how

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1314823

[DaveofCali]

45. THIS WAS NOT A CAMPAIGN, THIS WAS A WAR

DEMOCRATS DIDN'T SEE THIS AS WAR!!! REPUBLICANS THOUGH DID!!!

REPUBLICANS ARE WAR ORIENTED, SO THEY USE THE STRATEGIES OF WAR. HOW CAN WE WIN IF WE DON'T USE SUCH STRATEGIES?

[jab105]

48. We cant.

It's not even about NOW, its about the democratic party as a whole, for the future...

[sendero]

47. Several phrases....

... have been coined or at least repeated here often.

Such as "slave labor republicans" or "cheap labor republicans".

The crop of Dems we have right now are too chickenshit and out of touch with political reality to play the kind of politics that wins in the current environment.

You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make him drink.

[finecraft]

52. Bush kept bringing up JFK and FDR

often in his speeches. I think this proves that the accomplishments of both these men resonate with a large portion of his base, and the moderate republicans. We need to research and see how they framed their debates to get their programs passed....and then we need to start talking like "New Fellowship Democrats", and start incorporating words into our messages that the Republicans couldn't possibly attack because if they did, they would be assaulting, God, Mom and Apple Pie. I love the "Birth Tax" phrasing!

[JPace]

53. This is so true....

we must develope the art of pursuasion and attraction
along with reframing our points of view so that people
can identify with them.

I wonder though.....even if we succeed with the perfect
language, will we have enough media outlets to get the
messages out? The rethugs own the media outlets.

[jab105]

55. They don't own the media, they control it...you can control it through wor

words...the media uses their (republican) language to define things...because we havent spent the time to frame it our way...

Because of that, it does seem like the media is on their side...but if we can get the media to talk using our talking points, then we can frame the issues...

BIRTH TAX (see posts above)...that is where it is at...never ever say the word tax relief (oh my gosh, I almost forgot the words!!) never utter them...that allows them to frame the argument...we are arguing against birth taxes!!

Are you with us?? PM me...we are starting this people...really!!