A call to Christian Democrats

[Bluebear]

I preface this by saying I am an agnostic, so I am not one to lead the fight. Having said that, I hear today that 3 out of 4 evangelicals cast their votes for Bush. I am actually heartened that 25% of them actually stood for what I understand to be Christian principles.

Here's my challenge: The populace of this country overwhelmingly seems to equate Islam with terrorists. I don't know how many calls have gone out for "moderate Muslims" to denounce what the terrorists are doing. And so they should. What I suggest is that Christian democrats finally call out the ultra rightwing 'faithful' for what they are and what they condone. Falwell calling to blow the hell out of the Muslim world does not seem like a Christian value. Why is he not called out on it?

I am from New England, where it seems that the church community doesn't wear its religion on its sleeve quite so much, are people reticent to speak out in other areas because they fear being ostracized?

[DemBones DemBones]

1. Oh, I criticize Falwell and his ilk plenty, but

it's not as if I'm a Baptist, anyway. I don't think it matters to those that have gorged themselves on the Kool-aid. It doesn't matter when they hear people tell them some hard facts about Bush**, does it?

[Bluebear]

2. Evidently not....

If you spoke out about them you would be the one demonized. They are mesmerized by Bush and the Spirit. I look at these evangelical TV stations where people are singing and waving their hands in the air with eyes cast upward and Benny Hinn is healing someone's emphysema and...well, it's just another world to me.

[lynintenn]

38. and people send them millions of dollars

[m berst]

3. probably more than you wanted to know :)

"What I suggest is that Christian democrats finally call out the ultra rightwing 'faithful' for what they are and what they condone. Falwell calling to blow the hell out of the Muslim world does not seem like a Christian value. Why is he not called out on it?"

That is precisley the question to ask. There are so few of us talking to evangelical Christians on a theological basis from a liberal point of view. The time is so ripe for this, because there is a split opening up right now in evangelical circles. When Dems attack ALL Christianity it raises a huge barrier though and makes it a lot more dificult. Falwell and Robertson have cleverly and very succesfully coupled the survival of their corporations with the survival of Christianity in people's minds, and with TV they are talking past the preachers and directly to the congregations. They keep connecting politics with religion and are master salesman and manipulators.

The gulf needs to be bridged. I find it relatively easy to talk progressive politics and liberal principles with evenagelical people - after all, Jesus was the greatest spokesperson for liberal principles of all time. The difficulty IMHO - and I know that Democrats hate to hear this - is in talking about Christianity to liberals.

Liberal Christians need help and understanding from the liberal community if we are going to talk the radicals down and expose the hypocrites. One hateful remark that brands all Christians as evil sets the process back, and if you look around the board as a Christian it would be hard not to come away with the impression that all Christians are hated here. And a lot of people say "so what! I hate "them" and I will say what I think about them." Others mockingly say "Oh those poor persecuted Christians!' Not that again! I have no sympathy with them!"

A lot of people see Christians as idiots and nutcases, and say so. It never occurs to them that rather than many Christians being idiots and nutcases, it is the other way around. Many nutcases and idiots are attracted to Christianity and use it for cover. So instead of upon learning that a person is a Christian wondering if they are a nutcase or an idiot, it would make more sense to wonder upon meeting a nutcase or idiot if they are a Christian. See the difference?

Am industry has arisen to merchandise Christianity to a gullible public, and the combination of sophisticated marketing techniques and mass media with religious fervor is a threat to a liberla democracy. There is also now a poltical power structure manipulating a gullible public. All in all a big mess, held together by a perceived persecution of Christians by the secular world, mostly fanned and whipped up by those who have wealth or power to gain from doing that.

Terminology btw, along with the most negative and problematic associated qualities -

Evangelical - witnessing or prosletyzing Christian (source of a lot of trouble - the pushy and domineering converter too often)

Fundamentalist - those supposedly literally interpreting the Bible, and focusing obsessively on Old Teastament Mosaic law (stone the adultress)

Millenialism - various doctrines describing end times and the return of Christ (end of the world and rapture ideas)

Dominionism - modern doctrine espoused by Falwell and Robertson and others calling for converting secular government to Old Testament Biblical principles (truly dangerous IMHO)

Reconstructionism - blueprint for rebuilding society along Biblical principles (again, dangerous and problematic IMHO)

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. I'm with you

We are the second coming.

What most people don't realize is that the second coming is not about a man named Jesus returning to the earth. It is about the christ returning to each one of us. Christ isn't a person, it's a form of energy that can be found in almost every person. The second coming will happen when enough people realize that instead of searching outside of themselves for that energy, that it was inside of themselves to begin with.

The fundie christians remind me of the folks at Jonestown. Most of them are good and descent people who are being mislead by the anti-christs. Again the anti-christ is not a person, it is a manifestation of darkness.

Those of us who have 'seen the light' need to get to work deprogramming the brainwashed, one fundie at a time. It is the only way we can take back our country and save the world from the darkness that is trying to take us over.

PBWY
DYEW

[m berst]

6. yes

It isn't the theology part of the mix that is the problem, it is the commericalism and politicization - most of which is scripturally unsound. Politics and commercialism are ruining Christianity as much or more than Christianity is ruining politics and culture.

The important point to stress about separation of church and state with Christians is not the danger that the church represents to politics, rather the threat that politics represents to the church. That means addressing Dominionism and confronting it as un-Christian first and un-American secondarily - the oppposite of the non-Christian's concern, but arriving at the same desirable goal.

Dominionism is the doctrine driving all of this and it can be deconstructed. Here is the secret - the seeds for the unravelling of their arguments reside within their arguments. For Dominionism to hang together the teachings of Jesus need to be turned upside down and be interpreted as precisely their opposites. And, Dominionism is the theological bridge between Christianity and right wing politics. This implies the whole theory of the anti-Christ, but that is another topic.

The contradictions within the Dominionist theology are profound and they represent the Achille's heal of the right wing Christian movement, but they are theological contradictions not political contradictions. No one goes after this Achille's heel, because all who are not "believers" steer clear of talking about theology at all.

Check it out -

• Jesus said that love is supreme. Dominionism says that hate is good and righteous.
  
  
• Jesus said to be meek and humble. Dominionism says be arrogant and powerful.
  
  
• Jesus said give up your possessions. Dominionism says amass wealth.
  
  
• Jesus said to have compassion. Dominionism says to be ruthless.
  
  
• Jesus said to forgive. Dominonism says to blame others.
  
  
• Jesus said to "render unto Caesar." Dominionism says to be Caesar.
  
  
• Jesus said take care of the poor and sick. Dominionism says they're on their own and deserve to suffer.
  
  

Amazing, yes?

Dominionism is Pat Robertson's personal doctrine for his own achievement of wealth and power, not Jesus's teachings. The two are diametrically opposed, and Robertson is exploiting the faith for personal gain. Believers aren't preparing the way for Jesus when they follow Dominionism, they are preparing the way for Pat, and Jerry, and George.

If you take a sincere interest and ask people about their faith, and then just let them talk, they will talk themselves out of the political extremism. Ask them about the contradictions I listed above, but not in a mocking or critical way. They are so busy defending their theology from the likes of us, that they have never taken a good look at it themselves.

This is the key to getting God out of the extremist political movement, and once we do that the neo-cons will be seen as the destructive and corrupt power and money grabbers - and anti-Christians - that they are.

[liberal N proud]

4. I can not reuturn to church at this time, at least not where I have been

attending.
I will in time maybe find a new place to worship God. But I will not sit through another four years of listening to the Right Wing bullshit from the pulpit. And more than that the way these hypocrits live their lives, it makes me sick.
What beat Kerry on Tuesday was the Gay Marriage ban. The homophobic assholes that sit so smug in their little churches are so afraid that gays will turn all them into gays that they are in a process of trying to stop the spread of homosexuality. Next they will ban Homosexuals from walking the streets.
I have an idea that I will post at a later time that would knock them on thier asses. I am still working it out in my head.

[Bake]

7. Same here. same here..

I told my wife today that I will never darken the door of a Baptist church again. As time passes that resolve grows stronger.

Never again.

Bake

[DoYouEverWonder]

14. You won't find god inside of a place built with bricks and stone

You will only find god when you look inside.

[Bluebear]

41. Wonderful post.

[Bake]

8. The only way to reach the "evangelicals"

Pardon me while I pause to puke.

Class warfare. Jesus was the ORIGINAL class warrior. Blessed are the poor. You know the drill.

We have to -- HAVE TO -- convince these fools that the Pukes are not on their side. The only way to make them see that, as I see it, is class warfare. We've got to get down and dirty.

Bake

[Neshanic]

9. Ok, stop. Code word Evangelical=Born again.

Stop using the Media's new code word of the day. "Evangelical" is a "Born Again". How fast do you think that people would be repulsed if they said "born agains" and their "moral values" won the election for them.

People who are Democrats and Christian "get it". You do not have to reach out to them. They are there. They always have been.

"Born agains" have taken over the Republican party. They control it. Look at the promised land agenda. Top of list, repeal of Abortion. The Catholics, and others are just along for the ride. They are on a train that will take them to "overturn station" but they bought a ticket with this guy to the promised land. They don't know it, they will realize it soon.

So the sooner that we use "born agains" that won the election for him, "born agains" want to stop gay marriage, "born agains" want to know the genetic makeup of your baby to find out if it is possibly gay, "born agains" have a final solution to the conflict in Israel, only then will people wake up.

The exposure of what the awfull truth really is; a frank telling of facts of what "born agains" think of anybody not, and the fact that ALL religions except theirs are crap, is not being done and needs to be. Why do you think the "hate the sin, love the sinner" is the codespeak for Fallwell and Robertson? How fast do you think that things would be turned upside down if they were as candid as Swaggart was in a church of true believers? They believe everything Swaggart said, and have no problem with it. They just change the presentation.

You, me, anyone who is not "born again" is Hell bound. That is a FACT that they will not waver from. ALL other religions are "satanic". If you do not believe this, now that he has the control, you soon will be believers.

Quietly, smoothly, it is all being changed, and that supremely useless group known as "Republican moderates" have not seen the light. They won't untill it's too late.

[arwalden]

10. Yeah!! Great post!!

[Bluebear]

11. Re: "Ok stop."

"People who are Democrats and Christian "get it". You do not have to reach out to them. They are there. They always have been."

I realize this. If you reread I am hoping that Christian Democrats at least call out the "whatever you want to call them" for the quite unChristian values they seem to espouse and reclaim their faith!

[Doohickie]

12. I have conversations about the subject all the time

People know I am involved in my church... as a Sunday school teacher, a Habitat for Humanity organizer, and soon, I will be an elder. That gives me a certain amount of credibility with moderate (but still Republican) evangelicals.

I engage them in polite, intelligent philosophical discussions at every opportunity. The key is to not have a big confrontation and tell them how WRONG they are. When they do that to us, how do we react? We simply blow them off because by attacking us they blow any credibility with us. But if you try to learn their side of the issues, and discuss them without unloading on them, you can occasionally get them to think a bit about the heart of an issue.

For instance, when someone says Iraq was the right thing to do, I ask them why. The only reasonable answer I will accept is the way he treated internal groups of dissent such as the Kurds. While I don't concede that situation, in and of itself, justified our presence there, it is the only reason that hasn't turned out to be total b.s. Anyway, I then try to bring the conversation around to the problems in Falluja. They will often say that the only way to solve that problem is to "nuke them". Then I point out that by doing so, we are using the same tactics Saddam used on the Kurds.

By pointing out these inconsistencies, it makes them think. One has to remember that these are not dumb people; they are people that have insulated themselves, to an extent, from other views and they tend to believe the views of the Christian Right simply because everyone around them does; it's easier that way. I've considered taking the Red Pill myself, but I simply can't get past the bad music on Christian radio. But if you treat them with intelligence and respect, they sometimes listen to you. If you talk with jingoistic one-liners, they either tune out or throw their own one-liners back at ya.

We liberals espouse tolerance, restraint and respect in our core values. But if we do not act out those values, we have no credibility. We have to be consistent because one thing they can't deal with is inconsistency.

[sangh0]

13. That's not going to happen

With the exception of the religious right, there is a strong prohibition in the religious community against "calling out" another person. The urge to declare someone else "unfaithful" is something Jesus Christ warned against.

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. That doesn't mean you don't shine the light of truth on people

Jesus did go in the temple and throw over the tables of the money lenders.

[sangh0]

16. True, but it does suggest that they will do it in their own way

I didn't mean to argue that they will remain silent about this. They will, and in fact, the already HAVE, begun to stand up against this.

But if you see an angry mob of Christians, it won't be them. If they're both angry and Christian, they're probably the religious right, and not the religious left.

[DoYouEverWonder]

17. I'm calling out everyone I meet

I am not going to be silent.

That does not mean I am accusing or judging anyone. But if you tell me you voted for Bush, then I want to know why?

Oh by the way, though I don't advertise much, I do still consider myself a christian. However, my brand of christianity was banned around 400 AD. Most people would still call me a heretic. I don't care if that is the price of knowledge.

[sangh0]

18. "But if you tell me you voted for Bush, then I want to know why?"

That's the attitude I try to use when I'm talking to a bush*-bot and no liberals are around. I ask them questions in a non-hostile way, in order to get them to think.

[DoYouEverWonder]

30. What drives me nuts is the reasons they give

My sister-in-law was voting for him because he cut her taxes. Ah sister, how much did it cost to fill up your SUV today?

Or because he was a 'good' christian. Isn't that what the anti-christ claims?

Or because they don't believe in abortion. Hello, how many Iraqi fetuses did we bomb today?

So far the common thread was each one voted him for him for some stupid, self-centered reason. They have no clue about cause and effect. They can't see past today and their personal pleasures. This is what we're up against. The me generation grew up and all they know is me, me, me.

It's time to show the fundie right, you can't follow Jesus, while you still follow Bush.

[sangh0]

35. Yes, one must have superhuman patience

So far the common thread was each one voted him for him for some stupid, self-centered reason. They have no clue about cause and effect. They can't see past today and their personal pleasures. This what were up against. The me generation grew up and all they know is me, me, me.

Then think of questions that will help illuminate how his interests are not independent of the interests of others. Make it obvious how the well-being of others affects his life, and the lives of the people he loves.

It's time to show the fundie right, you can't follow Jesus, while you still follow Bush.

I doubt that will work. You're looking for a grand slam when you'd be lucky to get a chance to just step up to the plate.

When it comes to the died-in-the-wool Christian conservative, the best you can hope for is that you get them to start thinking for themselves.

[Bluebear]

43. Re: Grand slam & stepping up to plate

Wonderful metaphor. Goodness you write well.

[sangh0]

44. Thank you

Funny thing is, I was in honors English classes throughout high school, which mean that I took courses in Literature, and not composition. When I got to college, I was forced to take a Remedial Composition course because my grammer and punctuation was so bad. I didn't learn where the commas went until I got to college!! All I was taught was "Put them where you would pause to breath"

[Bluebear]

46. Well it's good to make your acquaintance

in this thread :)

[DoYouEverWonder]

47. Teaching them to thinking for themselves is the first place to start

One of the most basic tenets of christianity is that we were all given 'free will'. Unfortunately, most fundies have never even heard of it. It's time for people with knowledge to start to try to show the ones who live in darkness the truth.

[sangh0]

50. Their beliefs are based on authority

They believe things because an authority told them to believe it. Nothing you can say will change their minds because nothing you can say has more authority than whoever it was that told them what to believe. But there is ONE person who can get them to change their minds.....THEMSELVES. They just need to learn how to think for themselves first.

[highplainsdem]

19. Information/arguments that may help:

I posted this in another thread here, http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x2592990 , earlier today, but think it belongs here as well:

--------

Check this website for Christian arguments against bigoted Christians,

as well as more understanding of their mindset.

http://www.christianmystics.com/basics/twoways.shtml

Fundamentalists belong to the limited, unthinking, authoritarian "Christianity of Law" group.

http://www.christianmystics.com/contemporary.shtml

This page on that website has links to some interesting articles, especially the "Bully for Christ" article ( http://www.christianmystics.com/contemporary/bully1.shtml ) that would describe so many Bush-supporting Christians and their basic misunderstanding of Christianity:

Jones' quote reflects another important fact -- those who call themselves Christians and then proceed to bully or threaten are not only wrong, they are not Christians in the sense that they are not following any attitude, teaching or characteristic of Jesus' teachings and person. If, as some people hold, anyone who does not become a Christian is damned to hell, then aren't those people who practice hatred and bullying tactics much to blame for someone not wanting to investigate becoming a Christian? Won't these people whose self-righteousness is a wall feel, at least, some of the heat?

I'm speaking metaphorically about hell, of course, because I do not pretend to think that God speaks only to Christians, all others be damned. To think that's how God operates is a kind of spiritual racism in which people who are fearful and insecure make themselves feel better by imagining they are somehow (in any way) better than somebody else.

(That quote's from page 2 of the article, at http://www.christianmystics.com/contemporary/bully2.shtml .)

I don't think you're going to make convincing arguments to many Christians by arguing directly against their faith. But you may be able to show them what's wrong with the "Christianity of Law" version of their faith. And the "Christianity of Love" version is liberal in its very essence.

[Lerkfish]

20. I understand your thought, BUT, I've endured a LOT of grief from

people just like you who keep equating us (liberal christians) with the religious right, and even when we try to explain how we disagree with them, how we think they have a wrong view of christianity, we STILL get smeared with the same brush because atheist's and agnostic's negative baggage about religion prevented them from understanding the difference.

so NOW you want us to suddenly be your shock troops? knock me over with a feather.

Let me let you in on a little secret, my friend: the religious right don't listen to anyone, much less us. They consider us failed christians because we believe in tolerance and compassion. Ironic, I know, but I'm telling you that using us as shock troops would have just as little effect as using yourselves.

I HAVE been denouncing their values, since long before they came here....does anyone listen? Who gets the access to the press? Is the Quakers? is it the Unitarians? is it the United Church of Christ? ....all christian churches that do not agree with right wing religious nutjobs.....When's the last time you saw any of them being covered, interviewed, having access to the media?

[Bluebear]

21. "I've endured a lot of grief from people just like you"

Oh, what kind of person am I that caused you so much grief? Talk about smearing with this brush you speak of.

[sangh0]

23. I can answer your question

Oh, what kind of person am I that caused you so much grief?

You're the kind of person that assumes that liberal Christians aren't ALREADY standing up to the religious right and criticizing their positions.

And I'm not saying this to attack you. I mentioned this in my earlier post, also. You sholdn't assume that the Christian left is being silent merely because you haven't read about it in the papers.

And wrt that posters tone - You might get a little annoyed if someone said YOU weren't doing anything about a problem, when the truth is you've been fighting it for years.

[Bluebear]

28. Fair enough.

Maybe it's a hangover of being told today that the gays caused this Kerry defeat. But your point about the Christian left being perceived as silent because it's not in the papers is spot on, because it certainly has not gotten publicity. I guess "God hates fags" is more interesting for the media to focus on.

[sangh0]

31. You illustrate an important point

Human nature often leads us to react to an attack by striking out, often without aiming. You felt unfairly attacked over the gay issue, and so here you are, (not exactly "attacking" but) unfairly criticizing Christian Dems for not fighting back.

An eye for an eye only results in a lot of blind people.

[Bluebear]

36. And criticism was the last thing I intended

Exhortation is what I had in mind.

What a last couple days, eh?

[sangh0]

40. I have no doubt

you had no intent to criticize, but these are very sensitive matters. It's easy to screw up, huh?

But you're trying. That puts you ahead of most.

[Hatalles]

29. This is the same thing Muslim Americans are forced to deal with...

Ibrahim Hooper, of CAIR, had said that he was so frustrated by the question, "How come you Muslims don't denounce terrorism?" Hooper is someone who has time and time again stood up and denounced terrorism; in fact, he says that he spends half his time doing this sort of thing and he still gets the question.

[Bluebear]

42. I never thought being gay would be safer than being Muslim

I've seen Hooper, he certainly has an uphill battle to face for Muslim Americans.

[sangh0]

51. I don't know if I'd say that gays are safer

I guess it would depend on the situation. A gay man in a small conservative town might be in more danger than a Muslim in an Arab community in Detroit, a city where numbers alone would offer him/her some measure of protection.

But by the same token, a gay man in Greenwich Village is safer than a Muslim in Lubbock, Texas

[blondeatlast]

22. I know many think we let the Dems down by not pushing our "values," but...

I'm uncomfortable mixing my spiritual beliefs with my political ones.

Just like we want to maintain the divide between church and state, I maintain that divide in my own life.

We know how to follow Christ's teachings, but I feel it's wrong to push a political agenda as a part of it. That's why I can't be more active as a believer. if that makes any sense.

[sangh0]

24. "I'm uncomfortable mixing my spiritual beliefs with my political ones."

I can't say that I blame you. However, you don't need to push your religion and your spirituality in order to push your VALUES.

Doing unto others is something many atheists agree with. SO do many Buddhists, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc....

[blondeatlast]

25. True that. and pt wasn't saying that, but many on the board have.

Many on the boards can't seem to grasp the difference and expect us to be ACTIVIST in the same way the fundies are.

[sangh0]

26. Spot on!!

Many on the boards can't seem to grasp the difference and expect us to be ACTIVIST in the same way the fundies are.

While we do need to look at what they've been doing, mimicking them is just too simplistic. Ironically, calls to be just as hateful as they are usually comes from those who claim that Dems are too much like the repukes.

[blondeatlast]

27. Thank you for seeing this from the bottom of my heart! nt

[Bluebear]

34. I prefer to concentrate on what I have in common with Christians

From studying the teachings of Christ I identify that my moral code (as well as that of my athiest freinds) is in synch with the Christian left. It truly does seem to come down to evangelism. When Jesus said "Go ye therefore and teach all nations", (is that the "Great Commission?") I think some take the intensity/defintion of the word teach incorrectly.

[sangh0]

37. Bingo!!!

Even the fundamentalists can't argue with something that Jesus said. They can disagree over how it's interpreted, but it's hard for them to argue that "Do unto others" means "Nuke 'em"

[Selwynn]

32. HE IS CALLED ON IT - DON'T BLAME CHRISTANS FOR MEDIA

You can start, by not blaming Christian democrats for things that they have no control over. There is a HUGE group of organized, informed, outspoken Christan's who utterly oppose and reject fundamentalist extremism in all its forms. We cannot put a gun to the head of CNN or FOX news and demand that they give us equal coverage. We cannot kidnap the editor of a major newspaper and hold him for ransom until they agree to give equal time.

Second, you can start looking in the right places. Sojourners On-line and Sojourners Magazine is an excellent and organize source of resistance to religious tyranny and extremism. Progressive Christians Uniting is another organization mobilized and speaking out against hypocrisy in the church. If you look to literature, there is a literal BASTION of writing from progressive Christianity boldly and unflinchingly tackling these issues, even when it costs. I know a couple authors who lost their parish because of their outspokenness, I know professors who lost their positions because of their commitment to standing up against right wing bullshit in the name of Christianity.

The Center for American Progress has a new section on Faith and Progressive Policy. Call to Renewal is a religious organization that is every outspoken about the issues of poverty and the fact that it is a "moral values" issue. There is little I can do about whether or not the mainstream media chooses to carry the message of progressive Christians right now, but don't assume for a second that there aren't a HUGE amount of people RESISTING this garbage with EVERY BREATH THEY DRAW - doing the best the can to take our faith back.

[Bluebear]

39. YES I REALIZE THAT NOW

Which is why I started the dialogue and have learned a lot from the previous posts.

[lynintenn]

33. I'm Episcopal

here in the south the fundies consider us as infidels.
All you have to do is drive around in the south and see these HUGE I MEAN HUGE Southern Baptist churches with congregations of 1500 people. THey are sprining up like musrooms...each one bigger than the next.
A lot of the fundies, home school so there is never any exposure to a world where other people think.

[Doohickie]

45. 1500 is not considered an especially big church here in Fort Worth

3000-5000 member congregations are not uncommon. Primarily Southern Baptists, Assembly of God, and non-denominational Baptist clones.

Having to put up with them, I find that many of them are quite moderate and when confronted with specific issues will at least respect my views even if they don't agree with me.

But they are more than a religious movement; they are a cultural one as well. They have an affinity for each other. Many go along even though they disagree with the more radical views. But when all your family and friends go to the AoG church down on the corner, it is hard to conceive of leaving.

It's kind of like a pro-choice Catholic: They don't agree with the church's official stance, but out of respect for the institution, they don't get in people's faces about it every time they go to Mass.

While there are the extremist types, most of the people are reasonably well-adjusted and intelligent people. But they have a brand identity. Another example is a sports fan: There's no real difference between a Yankees fan and a Red Sox fan, but they hae a strong affinity for fans of their own kind and an animosity toward the other side. Get them away from sports (or don't bring up the subject) and they can be perfectly pleasant, well-adjusted and intelligent. There is no fundamental difference between them except that they associate with different brands.

So it is with the born-again, evangelical Christian. The hitch is that the Republican Party has tapped into that brand identity to change the course of elections in their favor. Why don't Dems do the same? Maybe because we are so diverse. We don't have a common mantra, and we're okay with that. But it denies us of get-out-the-vote issues like gay marriage. Part of what makes us Dems is that we don't simply vote on hot-button issues but try to look more deeply into the issues.

How do ya fight that? I really don't know... except maybe to nibble at the edges and get them interested in the forgotten pleasures of cerebral stimulation.

[Proud_Lefty]

48. It's their talking point. PERIOD

I am a Christian and understand it well. Too many people in this country are falling victim to psychological warfare. It is being used in the form of Christianity because Christians are trained followers and are fearful of God to "question God" by questioning people claiming to talk in God's name.

This is the same technique that was used by Hilter. They killed and tortured innocent people in an attempt to cleanse what they claimed to be "immorality". Then it was the Jews; now it's gays, Islams and you got it .... liberals. We are marked as bad people by an incredibly distorted strategist. It's killing me to see us all backtracking into trying to reach out to these people or understanding why we didn't take the moral high ground.

Take about ten steps back. Christianity is defined as being like Jesus. Being like Jesus is to be a liberal. What liberals stand for are as moral as you can get. If you can't get that across to a fundamentalist, LET GOD DEAL WITH THEM. Don't bother.

We won. The election was stolen and we don't have to stoop to their level to get the real votes. Truth will surface; fundamendalists will fail.

[Bluebear]

49. After all the people mocking suicide bombers....

for thinking they are going to a reqrd of 70 virgins, I heard a "left behind" type mom on TV whose son was in Iraq. She said she would be sorry to lose him on earth but he was going to a better place if he happened to get killed. We always said "Aunt Gertrude was in a better place" but Aunt Gertrude was like 90 years old. It made me so sad to hear a mother so quick to surrender her child to her view of heaven.

[DoYouEverWonder]

52. That is so nuts

You can have my child, but don't you dare touch that fetus.

:sarcasm off: