I can't understand certain black folks who are against gay rights

[mopaul]

i just can't get behind the concept of black folks being against gay marriage and other gay rights. don't they read history books? of all the people in america who might understand about being oppressed and disenfranchised, why do they vote against gay marriage?

some black americans vote against it because of religious reasons. i don't get that either. jesus didn't hate gay people, why do they?

if men want to marry men or women, women, i say let them. why deny them the happiness of marriage? when i was a boy, a black man was denied marrying a white woman in certain states. if you saw a bi-racial couple, you stared and they were often attacked. i don't get why they are so offended by two men holding hands, or sharing marital rights.

it blows my little tiny mind

[Mend]

1. Psychiatric Snippet

Whenever someone, or a group of someones, are against something such as gay marriage, I believe that they are afraid of what they find unacceptable in their own unconscious minds. Obviously to any rational person, whatever gays do re marriage has absolutely no effect on non-gays. The idea is to out-law the gayness they feel in their own psyches which they find unacceptable. Of course it won't work but they keep on trying. BTW, I know tons of born-agains who have had abortions.....they aren't just trying to stop us but to stop themselves.

[QC]

2. Everybody feels the need to look down on somebody,

and in this country, no matter how low you are, no matter how despised and disadvantaged, you can still look down on us homos.

[Skidmore]

3. My husband and I were talking about this last night.

We are a biracial couple, who still get stares from both races. Racism is alive and well. Yesterday I heard more than one African-American caller to radio programs who said they voted for * because of his moral values. One man called and said in the pulpits of African-American churches last week, ministers were telling their congregants that they needed to vote sometimes against their wallets. That this might be one of those times.

If one group is to be free, then all groups should be free.

[gauguin57]

16. Yank those churches' tax-exempt status! Politicking from the pulpit!

Someone call the IRS hotline!

[slor]

4. Issue 3 (equal rights for Gays) passed in Cincinnati...

with the support of a great deal of African American votes (including my own). I believe the sticking point for my community is they do not like the comparison with our own struggle for civil rights (I see the obvious similarities) but, sadly, many do not. Ultimately, it will need to be a dramatic shift in the thinking of white men, however, before we can expect great change in our society.

[Skidmore]

5. That is true. However, many white men feel so

threatened by everything these days. They are threatened by their own women as well. The last couple of decades have been the first time in history some subgroups of white males have ever had to really compete with any other groups. It stinks to be just a mere mortal after all

[slor]

7. The rethugs promote those concepts...

that make them feel threatened. Divide and conquer is the name of the game. But I cannot change that, they are the ones that need to wake up.

[TriMetFan]

9. Well as a women of mix race, I can say that the only reason

that African Americans would feel this way is because they have let the right tell them that it is wrong to compare the struggle of gays to the struggles of African Americans. Now if it was so wrong then why is it the Mrs. King and others still fight for Gay rights. She has had the right try to till her that she is wrong and she will not back down. I also think that my people have left what Dr. King and what others have stood for behind. And thats just not freedom for some but for all.

Thats is just my .2

[Radio-Active]

20. The reason Issue 3 passed

was probably the ambiguous language on the ballot : I couldn't even find the word "gay" anywhere.

[JI7]

6. because some don't see Race and being Gay as something similar

they probably think being gay is a choice and a "sinful" choice.

being black is just who they are so it's wrong to discriminate against people based on that.

[slor]

8. I do believe African Americans are more open than...

some here would surmise. I spoke to a group, African Americans all, and I know I convinced them to support Issue 3, after listening to them denounce Gays and their struggle for rights, with those of ours in the AA community. I cooked up the question, "how long before they come to take our rights away?", sprinkled with points about restricting anyones' civil rights being wrong, with a heavy dose of us being judged by our Creator and not by each other, and they all convinced me that they would certainly support it. And I know that it passed right here in conservative Cincinnati, despite a vigorous, well-funded, and distorted campaign against it.

[mikedaul]

13. well...

I've read or heard something to the effect that in general, blacks don't like gays because the idea of a gay black man undermines the ideal of the strong black male. The ideal of the strong black male is the foundation of the civil rights movement and black power in general. So, in very general terms, if you are gay you can't be a strong black male and thus you bring down black people in general.

(DISCLAIMER - I think this is insane, but it's what I've been told...)

[DemocratSinceBirth]

10. Kerry Got 89% Of The African American Vote

If Kerry Got 89% of any other non majority vote he would be president...

[Uzybone]

12. If Kerry got 89% of the Gay vote

he would be president. You are right. Why do some people always like to point the finger at blacks, when even some more gays vote against themselves.

[Brewman_Jax]

11. I see a few reasons

A lot of black people don't like the attention that gay marriage has gotten, effectively eclipsing AA civil rights issues. Some don't see that gay marriage is a civil rights issue at all. (IMO, denial of anyone's rights is a civil rights issue.)

There's the religious aspect, which needs no more elaboration.

There's the visual aspect. You can't hide being black. The joke: What's the difference between being black and being gay? You don't have to tell your mother that you're black.

[Zerovoltz]

14. Did it ever occur to anyone that...

Race has nothing at all to do with how people look at the gay marriage issue? there are ALOT of black folks who attend churches..and the bible that they use there is the same one the catholic church has and so on...and it teaches people that marriage isn't intended for gay people.

My marriage is between me, my wife, and my god....and I don't give a shit if the government knows, cares, has it on record, etc...

The whole problem MOST people have with "gay rights" is that gay people seem to have this incredible desire to let everone know about their gayness. It starts with the rainbow bumper stickers and goes right into the marriage issue...how much happier can you possibly be knowing the government has blessed your marriage/union?

[gauguin57]

18. Where does the Bible say anything about gay marriage.

There's one vague verse in Leviticus, which, from what I've read, was written in a time when an increase in population was needed -- so gay relationships were being discouraged so people would multiply.

The Bible never says (to my knowledge) "Marriage is defined as the union of one man and one woman."

As Jed Bartlett showed on "The West Wing," (when chiding a Dr. Laura-esque talkshow host in one episode), there are all kinds of laws in the Old Testament which, if applied today, would cause half this country to be put to death! It's all bullshit ... they pick and choose which Bible passages they want to pay attention to, and ignore the rest, and then claim to believe the Bible is the abolute word of God. What a bunch of BULLSHIT!

[mopaul]

22. are you sure you're at the right website?

[Kingshakabobo]

29. Hey wait...you just told us you were straight

By telling us you have a wife you told us you were straight.
How disgusting. You know, we really don't want to hear about your straight lifestyle and your straight marriage. Keep it in the bedroom. I certainly hope you don't have a picture of your wife on your desk at work. Keep it to your self. You don't have to push your straight "agenda" on us.

[sangh0]

15. That's because you don't understand their values

and that's because your hostility to religion prevents from even trying to understand their values.

It also stems from a belief that people who belong to a particular demographic group should all vote the same way when all the evidence suggests otherwise.

[sonicx]

17. i'm black, and anti-gay is not a value of mine.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

19. I Read That There Are Some Folks In The African American Commuity

that belive homosexuality is the white man's perversion that he has introduced to the African American community....

I also heard Sista Souljah making remarks about lesbianism along those lines...


I'm not suggesting it's a majority sentiment but a sentiment that may be out there..

It would be nice to hear it from someone who actually knows...

[Catfight]

31. I've also heard that black people cannot develop intellectually

as well as whites, their brains are developed smaller.


This ladies statement seems to validate that stupid statement. Sista Fouljahid is a fucking moran.

[Stuckinthebush]

21. Whoa!!!

Put a comma after "black" in your title. That freaked me out when I first read it.

:D

[DemocratSinceBirth]

24. I Don't Understand....

I'm asking a question...


Every community has it share of intolerant folks...


I am trying to learn the genesis of this intolerance...

For instance I love rap music...


Eminem who of course is not black uses homophobic epithets... I take it as tongue in cheek...


I also am a big fan of Public Enemy and I know some of their lyrics are homophobic..

One lyric stays in my mind from an early P E song about AIDS.. It goes thus "from what I know the parts don't fit..."

I'm just trying to learn...

[Stuckinthebush]

27. No, I understand what you are saying

I'm sort of joking here...

When I first saw the title of the post, I saw "I'm black and anti-gay..."

I thought "uh-oh! This will get interesting!" and then I saw the rest of the title. I'm just kidding around and asking for a comma after black.

That's all...just joshing around...

:7

[sonicx]

26. check

;)

[formernaderite]

23. Religon....

...have you ever been to a revival church? Can you say evangelical? They just happen to be democrats. They still don't believe in gay rights, abortion etc. If we go down this road, and keep slamming people for their beliefs...little by little they too shall go. BTW, I'm an atheist who thinks all religion is the greatest source of misinformation in the world...but I'm also a pragmatist.

[kwolf68]

25. They are

I don’t think black people hate gays, they just don’t support Gay Marriage. I would say most Americans are opposed to gay marriage by a long mile.

[Cocoa]

28. why should blacks be less bigoted than whites?

they're human beings, and bigotry is a part of us.

[okieinpain]

30. have any of you been watching the bible channels. their has been

a mixing of the different syles of preaching on those channels. there are blacks preaching to whites, and whites who preach like blacks. my wife voted for the marriage amendment in oklahoma, and she hates bush. rove played the election just right, they got that amendment out to pull out church goers.

and if you're wondering about my wife she had a brother and sister who were both gay, but she says that marriage between same sex is not right. hey she's a church lady.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

32. does she know you post at a site with sodomites and heathens?

nt

[Midlodemocrat]

33. Mine, too

but frankly, I can't understand any blacks who are repugs, nor any women who are. Apparently, they have very short memories.

[jacksonian]

34. one of the problems we have is understanding this is a personal issue

more than a civil rights issue. Not that the civil rights aren't important, but civil rights language may not be the way to talk about it. Marriage, specifically, is not the issue - it's just a convenient way to frame the debate.

Overgeneralizing here bigtime, but essentially the blacks see homosexuality as something the Bible condemns, and racism as equally against the Bible - using the same language for both cheapens the second. The annoying argument that they have dealt with for centuries against stopping racism is that, logically, the same reasoning that stops it can be used to approve an abomination.

Homosexuality, of course, is not an abomination, but we know some people do see it that way. I think homosexuality is genetic, but whatever in the actual world people do not overtly grow up gay, it's something they discover about themselves later in the process, without external cultural or family prompting. So we have to understand when we talk about these things we are not talking about social issues exclusively. Instead we're referring to the actual private and personal framework of the person we're talking to. Race and gender issues are something you're obviously born with, and bring with them a cultural background as a blueprint for understanding. Religion is not something you're born with, but it also usually follows culturally from your parents and family. Unlike these overtly social identities, homosexuality is a private discovery that may or may not be completely formed at some point it time.

Because of this language about classes of victimized people is the wrong strategy. You're not going to defend or understand fully the rights of group of people you are ambivalent about belonging to. People want to fear what they don't understand and there is much we don't understand - marriage itself is a fearful thing. We need to reduce the personal fear in a way that doesn't leave people exposed to existing social retribution for something they're not even sure they are, then we can talk.

[SoCalDemocrat]

35. The whole issue was a right wing scam

Kerry = Against Gay Marriage
Bush = Against Gay Marriage

It was never an issue. The CONs played to peoples fear and ignorance on this and other issues.

[jpgray]

36. Lenny Bruce had a bit about paying dues

He would talk about how the blacks should be the last ones to say "Ugh, the Puerto Ricans are moving in!", but they still do it. It's human nature--segments of any ethnic group will be wired that way, no matter how much history of the same oppression they have.

[Blue_Tires]

37. i'm black, and just wanted to add

don't underestimate the power of the black church in the community...it has LONG been a bastion of gay-bashing and old-time 'values' ---the RW churches saw this and picked up on it, forming an unholy alliance with common ground (sometimes one common issue is all it takes; just one)...btw, I always wished the dems would have tried to bring more civil libertarians over to our side, as many of them HATE ashcroft and the patriot act (i know many)

[PurityOfEssence]

38. godgodgodgodgodgod; what's so fucking hard to understand?

Some groups of the downtrodden are more sympathetic to others, but some are wrapped up in their own pain and unwilling or unable to empathize.

Religion plays a HUGE part in Black culture in this country, and much of it is pretty hard-shelled Protestantism that hates homosexuality.

You'll also find a lot of hatred within the Black and Hispanic male communities for those of them who are gay: it's a blot on their macho self-image. Downtrodden groups often assert more "maleness" as a sign of pride and resilience, and those among them who don't live up to the image find it very hard going.

Prejudice and bigotry are equal-opportunity afflictions. Although it's abhorent in the politically correct world to point it out, there are people of all groups who have strident stereotypic dislike of various "others"; not all people in put-upon groups are "good" or "nice", and it's simplistic to think they are.

The human creature is a mixed bag, and at times like this, it's difficult to maintain the love of humanity that needs to be the motivator for a decent person.

[jacksonian]

39. what you say is true, of course

Prejudice and bigotry are equal-opportunity afflictions. Although it's abhorent in the politically correct world to point it out, there are people of all groups who have strident stereotypic dislike of various "others"; not all people in put-upon groups are "good" or "nice", and it's simplistic to think they are.

Good analysis and true, xenophobia is definitely rooted in our humanity, but I still think the civil rights language distances us from the issue. Where do things like "macho" as opposed to less "manly" come from? Because the arms race of sexuality in culture cause people to one-up each other to "prove" themselves as desirable partners. More macho = bigger dick in culturespeak.

There is a tension between gay and straight that defines both in a different way than black/white/yellow/red defines race or even male/female defines gender, because at the end of the day a person can only be racially who they are or the gender they are. But sexuality is always forming into something else, i.e. we age, change levels of desire, satisfaction with partners, performance issues, etc., and although we may be gay or straight at the end of the day as well, there was always a time in our sexual selves when we weren't yet fully what we are. Matter of fact, this is why I think homosexuality/heterosexuality is part of the natural way of things, I just can't see one forming without the other. Not in any actual examination of people in the real world.

How we feel about G/L issues is an expression of how we feel about ourselves, this is psychology not sociology.

[Terran]

40. African-Americans are not a monolithic block of leftwing Dems

There's a distinct culture there, and it includes a strong dose of cultural conservatism and and traditionalism, even if it's not the same kind of conservatism and traditionalism that many whites espouse. And while homosexuality is tolerated on many levels by African-Americans, they're generally not very up on the idea of Gay marriage--it's simply too radical for many of them. This is not hate or homophobia, this is just a cultural mindset. Not too hard to understand. A lot of people, across many spectrums of ethnicity and religion are not ready for Gay marriage (but give them time).

A little perspective: does everyone remember that four years ago, gay marriage was not even on the radar at all as a possibility? It wasn't even mentioned; a couple of states had civil union laws, and that was it. Gay rights used to be an incremental struggle. Then along comes Massachusetts, and suddenly, we all want to be able to marry. Now, I'm not judging whether that's wise or not, politically, but I am saying that it's not surprising, the backlash we're seeing. Most Americans need time to adjust to something like that, and they simply haven't had the time yet.

I do sympathize with those who would say, "I shouldn't have to wait for my rights!" I'm gay and partnered for 18 years, so I know what I'm missing. But to be realistic, it took us 30 years to get from Stonewall to civil partnership in Vermont. There were hundreds of victories along that way that now seem absurdly minor, like keeping the right of gay teachers not be fired because of their sexuality. So, in the five or so years since civil partnership became real, I just don't expect the US to make the giant leap to full legal marriage. I hope it does someday.

I feel most people will come around to it, the way they have generally come around to the basic normalcy of gays and Lesbians in every day life. But the short time frame I think is what explains the current situation. Since we're discussing African-Americans, I think they will be among the first to come around as a group. As has been stated, they have their own history to remind them of what it means to be denied basic freedoms.

[Catherine Vincent]

41. I've tried to figure that out myself.

Some of my family members are against it. They keep saying it's against the bible and it's a sin blah blah blah. I try to tell them that the way they feel towards gays is the way most whites used to feel about us.

[madrchsod]

42. it`s not a black/ white gay issue

one of the "best kept secret" in the black gospel world is the people who have died of aids.. it`s people`s perceptions and their fears, i guess, but that is their belief. the real problem is not them but the people who exploit those fears to gain power. if they truly believe it is morally wrong fine by me and i expect they should respect my belief as a christian that it is morally ok.