I think Dean would have done much worse than Kerry for two reasons:

[AP]

(1) Gay marriage really hurt the Democrats because it got out the religious right vote. Kerry has nothing to do with the state government in Mass, yet being from a state which recognized gay marriages hurt him. Dean had actually signed a civil union bill.

(2) Kerry made a great statement about religion and faith in the third debate. He's Catholic. IIRC, Dean wasn't very religious and hadn't been a member of a church at all or for long periods of time.

I don't think Kerry's two IW votes had any influence on the election. Most voters agreed with Kerry that the war was going terribly. They had no problem convincing people of that. The problem was that Bush convinced people that the war was tied to the fight against terror, so it was OK that it was going bad. Kerry didn't convince enough people either that (1) they weren't tied together, or (2) there were more important things than terror and gay marriage. I don't see how Dean could have done either of those things better. There's nothing about Dean that made him an authority on terror, and he didn't try to convince people that terror wasn't important in the primaries -- all he talked about was war.

[The Chronicler]

1. I don't know if we could have run anybody that would have won

9/11 really saved Bush's ass.

[LSK]

2. Dean would not have been labeled flip flopper

And he would not have had the swift boat crap. He would have gone after Bush hard about Iraq and 9/11.

[AP]

4. Faith and gay marriage would have hurt him more, and he had nothing

to bring to the table that either separated war on terror from war in iraq, and he had nothing that would encourage people to think that there were more important issues, like race, class and middle class opportunity.

[The Chronicler]

6. True, but I can't see a red state where he would win.

He would be seen as soft on terrorism Im sure. And he wouldnt remotely win a state in the south or midwest.

[zulchzulu]

7. There were lots of Dean flip-flops...

I don't feel like digging into old wounds to recite them, but it was definitely an issue.

[Cocoa]

9. of course he would have been labeled a flip flopper

they ALWAYS label dems as flip floppers and tax cutters. Always.

And they would be talking about his skiing during the Vietnam war, and they would have come up with other things we don't even know about.

And I don't think Dean would have handled it with as much skill and toughness as Kerry did.

Then again, me might have been an excellent candidate and kicked Bush's ass, there's absolutely no way to tell.

[hertopos]

3. This kind of thread is rather wast of energy.

Flame me if you like.
I don't care Dean as a candidate. I only care him as a activist leader who is more on a right track than anyone right now.

This is why, I want a separate War room. I spend sometime at 'Help and support' and it did heal me.

Now I am ready for war. Skinner, I want a room for people who are ready to fight.

Hertopos

[AP]

5. I could have put it here or at the end of the dozens of posts arguing that

Dean was a better candidate which are interspersed throughout DU.

Putting it once here is literally an energy saver.

[arcos]

8. According to exit polls, most people support gay marriage OR civil unions

POLICY TOWARD SAME-SEX COUPLES
TOTAL 2004 2004
...................TOTAL..BUSH KERRY NADER
Legally Marry...... (25%) 22% ..77% .....1%

Civil Unions....... (35%) 52% ..47% .....0%

No Legal Recognition (37%) 70% ..29% ....0%

http://us.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/states/US/P/00/epolls.0.html


Interestingly, a slight majority of people who support civil unions voted for Bush. It makes me think that maybe people would've viewed signing a civil unions bill better than coming from the same state that legalized marriage.

[formernaderite]

10. Disagree...the best thing Howard had going for him...

..was his ability to speak firmly and plainly. He and Bush both had park ave upbringing but they moved to rural areas that gave them a different tone and perspective. Dean was perceived as a regular guy....I know, I am one and drink beers with them every week. For all of Kerry's great vision etc. he was a bit awkward.

[RogueTrooper]

11. I disagree

On Gay Marriage: The most important thing that Dean did was not to sign the civil unions bill but to win the election afterwards. During that election the Religous Right's chest was a mortar and they shot their hot heart upon Howard Dean. The result was a rout. Irregardless of who our candidate was or what his stance on gay marriage was the Republicans would still have used this as a wedge issue. The ballot initiatives showed that to be true. The Mass Supreme Court ruling was their excuse, not their reason. Dean was the only candidate in the pack who had a record of beating the Religous Right. It was one of the reasons I supported him.

3) Dean is a Congregationalist and he goes to church more regularly than George W. Bush.

[deutsey]

12. I was a huge Dean supporter and worked in his campaign

I was drawn to his campaign more because of the grassroots nature of it, which I'm drawn to in general no matter what I do.

I liked Dean, but as the campaign wore on I came to believe that he was too volatile to be a viable candidate. In other words, he shot off at the mouth too often and generated all sorts of media tempests as a result.

However, what he said about gay marriage, what he said about reaching out to Southern whites, what he said about Iraq, etc., all made sense to me and I think these stands could have helped a national campaign. The problem was how he said it, not what he said. Just my opinion.

Regarding his religious faith, I believe your assumption about him is flatout wrong. He is a Congregationalist; his wife and children, from what I understand, are Jewish. Congregationalism is known for it anti-heirarchical approach to church structure and, if I understand it correctly, places a lot of emphasis on individual experience over doctrine.

[ieoeja]

13. You know there are TWO distinct groups in rural areas.

There are the anti-choice, anti-gay, my-way-or-hell religious.

And there are the good ol' boy, rednecks who just want to be left alone. There is a long list of things these folk want to do: smoking, drinking, shooting, dirty jokes, etc. This group doesn't care what we do.

They tell me they believe abortion is wrong. But they don't think it should be illegal.

They tell me they believe homosexuality is disgusting. But they don't think it is their place to tell some gay what he can or cannot do.

THIS is where we should be trying to make our inroads. The religious conservatives are, locally, their political enemies. But on the national stage, they keep finding common issues. Or, at least, they are being told they have common cause, and we give the propagandists just enough material to help them (e.g. smoking bans).

[WI_DEM]

14. we will never know

how Dean or Clark or any of the others would have fared, so it is just speculation. I fully expected Kerry to win, and don't blame him for the defeat. He got the biggest amount of votes any democrat ever got running for president. Unfortunately Bush got the biggest number period.