Leon Panetta: The party of FDR has become the party of Michael Moore

[dennis4868]

Clinton's chief of staff was qouted in the Wash. Post as saying "the party of FDR has become the party of Michael Moore and 'Fahrenheit 9/11,' and it does not help us in big parts of the country."

Well, I guess according to Mr. Panetta the party of FDR should now love guns and god and hate gays! Lets just give in to the repubs and be their little pussycats....what an asshole!

the full artticle is here....http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A23670-2004Nov3.html

[bossfish]

1. Fuck you, Leon...

...so because guys like scruffy Michael Moore make you uncomfortable by asking tough questions, we lost the election?

I'm in sales and a part of sales is differentiating yourself or product....the DLC wing seems to think GOP-Lite is the answer. Bullshit.

[NewJeffCT]

5. No, that's not it

The RW media machine did a great job as painting Moore & Farenheit 9/11 as part of a radical leftist media conspiracy - "look at how many liberals are going to see that movie made by their spokesman, Michael Moore." Moore has become the face of the American Left where it used to be JFK and FDR. It's not Moore's fault, it's the fault of politicians who run away from the word "Liberal" nowadays.

Who is the political face of the american left these days? It's Teddy Kennedy still. If you mention Kennedy, the RW response is "Chappaquidick". There are really no true liberals who are politicians, besides Kennedy, out there as a spokesman or spokeswoman for the American left.

[Redleg]

68. You got that right.

The right has created a cartoon character out of the stereotypical liberal- a cartoon character that does not really have the main attributes that we liberals value.

[Cha]

25. I've always said "fuck you", leon..

I haven't liked him for a long time..I even forget what he did to piss me off when I had cabal news(I cancelled it in Nov 2002)..but when I see his name I think "jerK"!

[Cocoa]

2. if that were true, then Kerry wouldn't have been the nominee

to think, I actually used to like Leon Panetta.

[MUSTANG_2004]

23. He wasn't the nominee for most people

The race for the nomination was over almost as soon as it began, thanks to the DNC. Most people had no say in the matter.

[hatrack]

3. Piss off, Panetta

You don't know shit about Democrats.

[davepc]

6. Panetta point was Democrats don' know about a large part of the electorate

[AP]

4. Moore is a social critic. FDR was a social constructor.

There is a place for social criticism. But FDR gave people ideas and let others criticize them. He didn't spend his time telling you why Hoover was an ass.

Panetta isn't criticizing Moore. He's just saying that the Democrats have to tell people what they stand for, and not what they stand against.

[DemocratSinceBirth]

9. Moore Was Great For The Base But He Pissed Off The Persuadables...

I never discuss politics with my clients but this one woman I know said she was agonizing over her decision and decided to vote for Bush...

This was late Monday afternoon...

My heart sunk...


I asked her why... She said her mom made her watch Fahrenheit 9-11 and that convinced to vote against the Chimpster...

I asked why....

She said because of the contempt and disrepect for the president and she transferred that disrepect to Kerry and the Dems...

I told her it's not fair to hold Kerry responsible for Moore's movie....

I say the Chimp is a chump but I'm not trying to sway undecided voters...

[charlie]

16. No, he pissed off *that* persuadable

There are plenty of anecdotes likes yours, with a different outcome.

Do you think Kerry would've done better if Moore had kept his trap shut and sat out these last 4 years?

I'll note that I haven't seen Republicans disavow any of their menagerie of screaming loons, like Ann Coulter. And why should they? Annie does yeoman work for them.

[brentspeak]

7. Why should we be the party ABOUT gays?

That is NOT what the Democratic party should be about. We should never cowtow to allowing a constitutional amendment to banning gay marriage, but neither should we be seen as the party that is actively ADVOCATING gay marriage. That is a "moral issue" for both the right and the left. It has no place in a platform that is supposed to be about sound government and "fighting for the little guy".

[davepc]

11. The admendment is a red herring

Understand that first. Its just a scare tactic bogyman. We don't have to fight against something that wont happen. Hell, we should come out against it.

2nd, be firm on our support of civil unions, but get rid of the word marriage out of the debate. CIVIL UNIONS.

Whens the last time you heard anybody say a "civil union" is sacred?

Lastly, we cant make it a key cornerstone of our platform in the south and mid-west. It just don't fly there very far.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

48. Red Herring?!? Can you read?

We lost 57-46 on the Gay Marriage Amendment in OREGON! Everywhere else the proposition got 60+% and it got 86% in Mississippi!

You're only kidding yourself if you don't think this got the fucking wacko right wing evangelists motivated to get to the polls! They HATE gay marriage!

I'm not saying we should join them in hating gay marriage, but you've got your head totally in the sand if you think it meant nothing on Tuesday!

[The Chronicler]

8. Deny him at your own peril, folks.

You're ok with being utterly non-competitive in VAST portions of the country? I think the world will end before we ever win Texas again.

[lapislzi]

13. You are EXACTLY right

We've become exactly what they've accused us of for decades: a pack of coastal elitists. They hate us in Texas and Kansas and Idaho for that very reason.

The culture wars have become the war on brains.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

49. Bullshit, they've hated us since the Civil War.

Nothing has changed since then. The Evangelists have just harnessed that power in a new way.

[lapislzi]

70. Your assignment: read Skinner's article on the front page

I'm as anti-religion as you are. Probably more so.

For them, god isn't everything, it's the only thing. Our job is to figure out how to tap into it and persuade them that we're not going to hurt their god.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

71. I read Skinner's article and I don't agree.

At all. I don't think these people care. I sat and watched the news yesterday and I heard Evangelists and Neocons bring up by comparison and in passing one big red flag word: "slavery". They either likened abortion to slavery or they claimed if gay marriage was moral in our eyes then slavery could be moral in theirs. They STILL haven't gotten over it. I think we have irreconcilable differences and if you don't believe that, you need to take a drive through the deep South and see all the posters that say shit like "The South Will Rise Again!"

[eataTREE]

10. The party of Lincoln has become the party of Limbaugh. What's your point?

Yeah, progressives, moderates, and those with sensitive stomachs dislike Limbaugh. But so freaking what? He is a huge asset to their side.

Likewise, right-wingers get tied up in knots over Michael Moore. Good! I wish we had twenty just like him!

Michael Moore did about eight thousand times more to help John Kerry and the Democrats this election cycle than Leon Panetta did.

[NewJeffCT]

20. Moore may have helped Democrats, but

The RW has successfully painted him as one of those wacko, decadent, Hollywood elitist liberals. Moore has become the face of the American Left, replacing Ted Kennedy. While his movie was airtight factually, they put out enough BS that it made people doubt everything in the movie.

Now, when people think of the American Left, it is Hollywood Moore & Chappaquidick Ted.

[eataTREE]

37. Much as the Left paints Limbaugh as a drug-addled troglodyte.

(Which he is, let me make that clear.)

Look, whoever becomes the face of the Left is going to face the scorn and derision of the Right. So what are we going to do? Are we going to elect Alan Colmes our spokesmen and moral leader in the hopes that if we're inoffensive enough, those big bad right-wingers will stop saying mean things about us? Or are we going to rally behind someone who gives as good as he gets?

No one, repeat no one, likes a wimp. And over the past twenty years, the Left and the Democratic Party have become wimpier and wimpier in the hopes that, if we compromise enough, the other side will like us and let us into the clubhouse where the cool kids play. But it never happens. What happens instead is that we alienate potential supporters who are rightly disgusted by our refusal to take a firm stand about anything.

The Right hates Michael Moore because he has the power to sway hearts and minds. They hate him because they fear him. Let them fear him. Let us stop looking for leaders that the right wing will love, and look instead to those that the right fears.

[NewJeffCT]

39. There is Limbaugh

But, the RW also has Fox News, CNN, NBC, MSNBC, 6 zillion other talk radio hosts, the Washington Times, the NY Post, etc, etc.

We have Michael Moore and Hollywood. Bush is sending union jobs to China, so the unions are getting weaker...
tort reform will make the trial lawyers weaker & poorer...
education 'reform' will weaken public schools & the teacher's unions, which will, in turn, weaken our universities because we'll be sending fewer kids to our colleges...

[Dukakis88]

12. The GOP wanted to kill FDR, too.

[davepc]

17. FDR made the GOP a footnote for over a decade

[RafterMan]

21. And FDR wanted to kill the Kingfish!

:)

[Dukakis88]

24. Heh, heh. I didn't know that. I need to read some more history...

[Cha]

28. They are planning to dismantle FDR's

programs as we type!

[GDoyle]

14. How many elections...

Do we have to listen to this shit? We got killed in 1994, 2000, 2002 and 2004 and we always get these post-mortems from assholes like Leon Panetta. The party needs to do this....the party needs to do that. Bullshit. We're not wrong THEY are. What we need to do is start fighting back against the red states. Let them choke under the bankruptcy of the Republican ideas. Repeal social security, repeal farm subsidies, repeal almost all the federal government. Repeal the New Deal, I don't give a shit anymore. Turn Kansas back into the pre-FDR dustbowl, I no longer have sympathy for them. At this point, its the only way to prove the point to these fuckers. They're the one sucking off the blue state spigot anyways.

END RED STATE WELFARE!!! Then come back to Democrats in 30-40 years when these assholes get serious about fixing the problems again.

GDoyle

[d_b]

15. Yes, It's Michael Moore's fault

Not the lameasses who control the democratic party. :eyes:

[Blue_Tires]

34. spot on

panetta needs to hold up a fucking mirror

[Rose Siding]

41. He can't- he's too busy running to catch up with the winners

And Poppy: "Moore is scum!"

[WI_DEM]

18. you know there is nothing wrong with loving God as long as you

keep a seperation of church and state.

[RafterMan]

19. Eh...

I'm no Moore fan, but this is a ridiculous position. The problem is that the Democratic leadership is not putting out anything as compelling as what Michael Moore puts out -- the fact that Moore drowns out their voices says more about them than it does about him. The dem leaders seem to feel that if only Moore, Dean, Nader and the Christians would get back in their place, they'd have a real shot at winning an election. If they're worried about being outshone, maybe the solution is to shine a little brighter.

The 1930s had its share of populist agitators and FDR managed to stay one step ahead. Lame excuse, Leon.

[UdoKier]

22. Hey Leon, you got ANY valid criticism of Moore?

Did he lie about ANYTHING?

Culturally, he IS middle America, not Hollywood.

What's your problem with him, besides that he's FAT and he dissents - LOUDLY?

I suppose he should just dissennt sanguinely from a rocking chair like Mark Twain or something. Fat lotta good that did us.

[Cats Against Frist]

26. Another false dilemma

Then why aren't they the party of Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter and Sean Hannity and all the other right-wing lying psycho hate radio slingers?

We got a TON of flack from ONE submission to the Moveon.org contest that compared Bush to Hitler -- but the day before the election, I was listening to that fat nasty pig Limbaugh and he was screaming "THE LIBERALS AGREE WITH OSAMA BIN LADEN!!!!!!!!!!!"

WHAT THE HOLY FUCK?

If we're the party of Michael Moore, they're the party of Hate Radio and Rapture freaks. Which they are.

[Dukakis88]

29. Ha -- we posted the same thought at the same time.

:crazy:

[Dukakis88]

27. Panetta's argument is ridiculous, for this reason:

No one shunned the GOP because they had hatemongering "traitor" accusation spewing extremists like Michael Savage and Ann Coulter all over the media. Michael Moore is no "worse" than them, and in fact, he's better, because as far as I know he hasn't called for the deaths of right wingers, as Ann has.

[Cha]

31. Oh, Michael is a HELLAVA

lot better than the ilk of the fascist wing likes of slander,limpbaughs, and insanity!

Michael is showing the Truth and they are spewing LIES!

[NewJeffCT]

36. it's not about the Truth

It's about how the RW has framed Moore as the face of the Democrats & the American Left, and they put out enough rebuttals to Moore's facts that it created a lot of doubt ("gee, all 56 points can't be wrong?")... even though the rebuttals were rebutted, that message didn't get out. Moore was a dishonest liar...

One guy I know of that is fairly smart basically discredited all of Al Franken's work in Lying Liars because of one article about O'Reilly where the author claims to prove that O'Reilly grew up in a poor neighborhood. Even after I told the guy that Franken's source was O'Reilly's mother, while O'Reilly's source was a guy that worked at a magazine that O'Reilly was publisher, he still had his doubts.

[NewJeffCT]

33. again

The RW media machine has made Moore into the "Face of the American Left." So, instead of our face being Ted Kennedy, Nancy Pelosi, Carl Levin or even Barack Obama, it is Michael Moore - a decadent, Hollywood elitist.

And, Coulter & Savage have nowhere near the visibility that Moore has...

[Cha]

44. I'll take Michael Moore's face!

They can have their stupid misconceptions! WE're down but we're not Fucking OUT!!

[NewJeffCT]

45. I never said we were out

But, we need more than just Moore's face representing us - we need Barack Obama out there, Pelosi, Al Franken and more.

Heck, put Al Sharpton out there - he is quick witted and funny.

[charlie]

46. You do realize that sort of character assassination

happens to anybody who'll stick his neck out for the left? Or Democrats? Recall what happened to our former Vice President as a result of a couple of partisan speeches? He's deranged, he's lost it, lookit him sweat, he's an animal! I'm thankful for anyone who can endure the derision, including Moore.

[Cha]

53. Excellent Point, Charlie!~

:yourock:

[charlie]

54. Thank you!

Just belaboring the obvious... :)

[NewJeffCT]

67. I'm thankful as well

But, we need people like Al Gore, Howard Dean & John Edwards to stay visible, in addition to Franken, Moore & other non politicians. We need Al Sharpton & Jesse Jackson to go to black churches and we need their Hispanic equivalent to go to Hispanic Catholic churches.

If we keep enough people out there & in their face, it will be that much harder for them to focus their propaganda. It's harder to write them all off if they keep their faces visible. If one person at a time is out there for a month, they'll each go through the meat grinder.

[charlie]

69. They do

All the guys you've named (except Edwards, for the moment) are out there. Shit, Howard Dean is burning on sixteen cylinders, he's so busy I fear for his health. For now, the media are content to mostly ignore them, but when the waves they make begin to rock the boat nationally, watch for them to get whacked. Dean's already had it happen to him, I expect he's ripe for another.

[Cha]

52. I wasn't implying that you

said "we were out".. That's just one of my Mantras now!

I really feel it! And Michael is just one of our Faces..and it's a great one!

[Cats Against Frist]

30. Also -- so that quote was dated yesterday?

All he's doing is picking back up on the rhetoric to further demoralize us after the election loss -- and to marginalize us from the FUCKING FOOLS who may have voted for Kerry, but are going to fall for the Chimpster's "let's reach out to the Democrats," bullshit. How disingenous. Just like the people in the White House that were calling Kerry "delusional" for not immediately conceding.

These fuckers DO NOT want to work together, and now is not the time to get complacent.

[no name no slogan]

32. When Leon Panetta works for a Prez who gets 50% of the vote...

...I may start listening to him.

Face it, Leon: Perot helped get your boss in office in 1992. If not for that wacky-ass Texan peeling off the moderate Repubs, you'd still be some sycophant in Little Rock.

And what a 'great' Democratic president Clinton turned out to be: NAFTA, "welfare reform", blowing up aspirin factories in Sudan, "Defense of Marriage" act, undeclared war on Iraq, loss of both the Senate AND the House, loss of more Dem governorships and state houses,....I could go on but why flog a dead horse.

If you don't like the Democrats anymore, then go join the GOP. I'm sure you'd fit in nicely.

[Bread and Circus]

43. That's about the most scathing and perhaps cynically accurate...

assessment of Clinton's Presidency I have ever seen.

[ibegurpard]

35. Fuck off, Panetta

It's the people who think the same as Michael Moore that even kept you in the GAME. People who are enraged and disgusted at this administration and the radical right-wing are the one who are motivated to get out there and try to change things. We are enraged BECAUSE everything FDR did for this country is now on the chopping block. Want a complete and total rout? Cooperate with these thugs.

[Cha]

57. Thank you for your post..

ibegurpard! :toast:

[Snellius]

38. When did MM join the Democratic Party?

When did Leon Panetta join the Republican Party?

[drscm]

40. So we should be the party of FEAR and HATE like the repugs?

It's primarily bigotry and fear that keeps the repugs in line while *Bush steals from the American people for his wealthy friends and corporations, rapes the environment and starts wars that kill 100,000 innocent citizens. Thank god, though, that the citizens he promotes killing are in another country and not our own. Besides, he's saving the Iraquis themselves. Dead Iraquis can't have abortions or participate in gay marriages.

[Bread and Circus]

42. Wow, with an attitude like this I should have voted for Nader.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

47. Hey Leon! FDR was a FIGHTER!

He was not a fucking coward. He did not back down to anyone or anything. The Party of Michael Moore IS the Party of FDR and we will always BE the Party of FDR.

[d_b]

50. On the contrary

I know of five people who voted for Kerry BECAUSE of MM's film. One of them was my buddy's brother-in-law; who never voted before in his LIFE(he's in his 40's).

The democrats' problem isn't Michael Moore, it's the leadership of the organization itself; within. Perhaps Leon is preparing us for what we can look forward to next time: Four words - 'More of the same.'

[Tomee450]

62. We are thinking along the same lines.

It might be that Moore's film helped Kerry to get even more votes. I don't understand this negative attitude that some in the Democratic Party leadership have towards Michael Moore.

[d_b]

63. Well..

It goes either way, as most things do. Maybe he scared some off, but I only know of people he convinced. But to say a populist like Moore is what's damaging the party is ludacris to me.

However, I will tell you what caused my Democratically registered/ JFKennedy campaigning mother to vote for Bush: Fox News. <- That's what scares me.

[sadiesworld]

51. FDR-populist

Moore-populist

Panetta-DLC hack

[markus]

55. No, sir. It was your friends the careerist party hacks who lost this one

We need to be the party of Moore. And Dean. And, in the end, John Edwards.

We have to be the party that pulls the curtain away to reveal the massive redistribution of wealth from the middle class to corporations.

It's all about the money, not about finessing how to turn the Security Moms (nee' Soccer Moms) into Whatever Moms.

It's about getting the people pissed of that they are being had. They are having their pockeets picked, and issues like gay rights are a classic bump-and-pick distration.

[Julien Sorel]

56. The party of FDR

did "love guns and god and hate gays." The South was part of FDR's voting bloc.

[madrchsod]

58. leon go fuck yourself

or better yet-read where fdr got his ideas from-then go fuck yourself you fuck`n little coward..

[Cha]

59. Toast!

:toast:

[nothingshocksmeanymore]

60. Panetta's wrong. The part of FDR has become the party of people like him

Micheal Moore got people out to vote and inspired them. Who did Panetta's brilliant personality get to the polls?

[MallRat]

61. Oh, goody. Now the inevitable in-fighting and sniping begins.

Is there a good reason why the Democrats can't do this behind closed doors? This bullshit always makes us look weaker than we really are.

Shut your fucking piehole, Leon. Save it for private meetings.

-MR

[Romulus]

66. well, this *is* the "Fighting and Acrimony" forum! LOL!(eom)

[LoZoccolo]

64. Well fuck him - let him put out his own message.

The Democrats generally haven't done much to put out a message that people will watch or listen to, so people like Michael Moore start putting it out for them. The DNC web site, for instance, was pathetic until all these new activists started putting stuff up on their own in absence of any good official propaganda.

Plus all these Michael Moore watchers were out getting people to vote this week - fuck were you doing, Leon?

[Hell Hath No Fury]

65. Panetta here in CA...

He was a big backer of a state proposition that would have allowed for open primaries.

I saw him interviewed and he actually said that we were seeing too many partisans and what we needed was more moderate politicians. He claimed that open primaries would encourage voters to vote for candidates, not parties. When asked if a system like that couldn't mean the two top vote getters might be of the same party, like two Republicans, he said so what?, if they were good candidates that would be fine.

My response was "fuck you, Leon".

We had open primaries for awhile and we got rid of them. Good riddance.

[okieinpain]

72. actually mike is the part we need to get back too. I don't think

mike is totally against guns, and I don't think he wild about abortion.

[goodhue]

73. absurd

Arianna on the other hand has the correct analysis . . .
http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=18029

[Octafish]

74. Hey, Panetta! Where were you when Bush was reading "My Pet Goat?"

Democrats deserve to know.

Why doesn't Bush tell the truth about 9-11?

People of all parties deserve that answer.