I was in Ohio: We got creamed on the street:

[mdguss]

The votes to elect John Kerry were probably there in Ohio. There are two reasons the votes didn't get out as they should have: the ineffective tact of using 527s for GOTV efforts. It's not really effective when you're at a door, and can only say, "Please vote." Many people I talked to couldn't figure it out, and wanted to know, "Who are you for?"

The second reason is gay marriage. This should serve as a warning and a lesson for those in the party that want to take the party farther to the left and fight every battle with the Republicans. Those who chose to fight the gay marriage issue made gigantic mistake that cost their movement dearly--and probably set it back 45 years. Issue 1 in Ohio passed with 65 percent of the vote.

Moral issues were important, because people are focusing on the little things that they can control in this time of calamity. Assuming that they'd all be as interested in the grand debates of our time was a mistake that those of us in the middle made this year.

The Democratic Party, and especially left-leaning interest groups need to wake up to a new reality. Republicans are winning elections on social issues because of how they've framed the debate. To the people who vote on, "moral issues" it's about personal responsibility and control in their lives. Policy wise it may not make sense, but to poor people with little power or hope, it does.

As I was leaving the hotel I stayed in, one of the cooks came in early. She was asking about the gay marriage ban. When she found out it passed she was pleased. "I'm so glad. I don't want them to be able to be married." Many here would say that is a statement of preduice. It may be (it probably is). But it is also a statement about control. Here is a woman who might make 10 bucks an hour. She has little power over things that effect her. But, through social issues like gay marriage, she has gained some measure of control or power.

Only Democrat who is moderate on abortion will stop this trend and unite the country. Kerry came close because he is moderate on abortion, and a thoughtful and gifted leader. I wish him the best, and hope for circumstances in which he can re-emerge and be elected. I think Evan Bayh or Mary Landrieu are people we should consider getting behind in 2008.

[Merlin]

1. Thanks for a great report. I agree with much of what you say.

Well, everything except the Bayh and Landrieu part.

The Gay Marriage issue is dead. It will never raise its ugly head again because by 2008 every red state in the nation will have passed laws against it.

Abortion is also about to be dead. Roe will be reversed within a year. Thank God this horrific burden that has lacerated our party for more than a generation will finally be lifted from our backs.

We need, as a party, to incorporate the language of Jesus into our appeals. Jesus was a liberal and a populist. Our failure to invoke the name of this man is foolish and self-defeating. Perhaps we will learn otherwise by 2008.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

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[patrice]

48. This will be just fine with me as long as we connect it to the abortion

known as war.

[Merlin]

52. Once we remove the logs from our own eyes...

those in the eyes of the Republicans will become perfectly obvious.

[patrice]

65. I've never understood why people don't give their unwanted babies

to someone who will love them. People say things to me about lower classes, thus, being taken advantage of, making baby-mills out of them, and there is truth in that as long as social and economic justice are ignored.

I have not resolved my concerns for "protection of the life of the mother" yet, I want that to be possible, but I expect it is abused sometimes.

I basically object to all "lines" demarcating Life. Though I'm a non-practicing Catholic (who misses the Mass terribly) I am more like a Pagan in regard to my definition of Life.

[Warren DeMontague]

93. Because the government shouldnt be in the business of telling women

they HAVE to remain pregnant against their will. Period.

Against abortion? Hey, great. Work for adoption. Better birth control (whoops- the Right to lifers are gonna try to criminalize that, too) Support societal safety nets, like health care and a decent minimum wage, that would make it easier for single mothers with unplanned pregnancies to carry them to term.

However, when you declare by law or fiat- as I'm sure we're going to see REAL SOON- that "life" begins at conception and needs to be protected under the 14th amendment, what you are doing is essentially saying that a woman's body and womb belongs to the state.

I don't give a F*ck if pointing that out causes us to lose elections until the year 3000--- I'm not going to change my bedrock pro-choice beliefs.

[okieinpain]

54. and the important issue about abortion is it's almost 50-50 among

women if not more on support for it. does the democratic party have to take on all of the hard issues. when you think about it, the repugs have it easy.

they are against abortion - easy to say
they are against gun control - easy to say
they are against taxes - really easy to say
they are against affirmative action - in todays social climate easy to say (think athletes)
they are against gay marriage - easy to say, it's todays I have a black friend
war on terror - man, now that's a no brainer
death penalty - now this is where it all starts with liberals being thought of as weak people. this is the deal that trickles down to all the other issues.

I mean look at their list of items, it's not hard to defend any of those. dems on the other hand are stuck with defending these same items, with no benefits of doing so. gays vote for bush, blacks, whites, hispanics, are all against paying taxes. gun control, ask a black man if he wants to give up his gun. affirmative action only matters to blacks in college, and really not a lot of them think about it's benefits. and then we get back to the war on terror please, that one is really easy. death penalty, hell I'm for it in a lot of cases. we have got to get a good answer to these issues, and a good spokesman to deliver them.

[Merlin]

72. Well said!

Excellent observations, okieinpain. I'm sure you live this every day in the heartland.

[Booster]

90. Re: the gay marriage issue. Why in the Hell doesn't a Dem

write a bill that will give a gay partner ALL of the rights of a married partner without actually calling it a "marriage". People in this election got caught up on that stupid word, on both sides, and it could be totally watered down by granting them their rights. Gays simply have to get over the word cause it's the only thing really stopping them from their goal. I am totally upset about Dems in Washington not thinking and using their heads on issues like this - if you write a bill on granting these same rights without calling it a "marriage", what possible answer could the repugs come up with for voting against it, without looking like the biggots they are?

[andym]

55. If Roe v Wade is overturned

Two things will keep this alive.

1) a state by state battle for legality
2) fear that liberals will try to overturn the overturning

In other words, there is no end in sight.

The end of R v wade will not end this as a wedge issue.
There will be incredibly messy battles for years to come.

[Merlin]

67. When Roe is overturned....

Abortion decisions will then devolve to the states, and every state in the union except MA, NY, NJ, CA and a handful of others already have laws in place to prohibit it.

But because of its availability in certain states, the problem will simply be reduced to "How does a pregnant lady who wants an abortion get to one of the states where it's legal." In these days of cheap travel (unlike back in the pre-Roe days) that will be way less significant.) Back alley butchery will not return at the level it used to be because most abortions will still be legal.

The issue will disappear because the right will feel it has won and the left will not have any significant objection to the new situation.

Meanwhile the Democratic Party will not find it necessary any longer to defend the indefensible: the wanton destruction of nascent living fetuses in the name of "Choice." That will--at long, thankful last--remove the issue from the party's platform.

(I say it's "indefensible" not as a judgment on the practice. I personally could care less, not believing a fetus is a human until it is viable. But "indefensible" in the sense that it can never be debated without demagoguery on the right, and for the vast majority of the sheeple, the demagoguery will win every single time. Example: Liberals are known as "baby killers" in the red states.)

[Xipe Totec]

75. There's more to Roe v Wade than just abortion

If it gets overturned there's going to be many states that will be left without a single practicing OBGYN. No doctor in his right mind would want to practice medicine where medical procedures are criminalized.

[Name removed]

79. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xipe Totec]

82. Now you're getting personal

Would you care to rephrase you statements without the invective?

How many OBGYNs have you spoken to?

(on edit, here is some supporting information:)

Even those young doctors who are committed to providing safe abortions to their patients may have trouble getting the training they need. A survey in 1998 revealed that first trimester abortion techniques are a routine part of training in only 46% of America's ob/gyn residency programs. About 34% offer this training only as an elective, and 7% provide no opportunity at all for young doctors to learn to do safe abortions.

In 1996, the agency responsible for accrediting medical residency programs (the Accreditation Council for Graduate Medical Education) took steps to correct this problem. It now requires ob/gyn residency programs to include family planning and abortion training for their students. It is too soon to tell whether this will result in better preparation of ob/gyns in the future to provide safe abortion services, but it is clear that doctors who don't get this training are not in a position to provide the full range of care that their patients will need.

http://www.prochoice.org/Facts/Factsheets/FS5.htm

If abortion is criminalized, medical schools in those states may lose acreditation because they will not be able to fulfil the national requirements.

[Name removed]

85. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Xipe Totec]

87. With all due respect,

If you're tired of losing elections join the Republican party. It's not hard to do. If wining is all that matters, your problems are solved.

I do not smoke. I quit decades ago. Stop implying I use drugs because I do not, and I find the accusation offensive and I consider is a personal attack.

I have spoken to OBGYNs, plus I have relatives who are physicians. One thing about doctors is that they don't appreciate either lawyers or accountants telling them what to do, and their skills are very marketable; They can pick and chose where they want to work and where they want to live. They are also highly educated so they tend to be more liberal than the population as a whole.

Finally, you don't have to agree with me, and I don't have to agree with you. That's what used to make this a free country. I will continue to exercise the right to an opinion for as long as I can which, judging by the posts I see today, won't be for long.

[andym]

77. There will still be an issue

Those against abortion will then fight to have it banned in the states where it is legal.

OTOH, the democratic party will try to overturn the overturning. Bet on it. But it then may be a stronger issue turnout issue for Democrats than Republicans.

[Merlin]

80. No way Democratic politicians will wander into the abortion swamp again.

Not if they want to keep their positions.

Every smart elected Democrat in this country will take the postition that the matter is out of their hands because the court has spoken. And the court was given its voice by the results of the 2004 election. The American people have spoken.

Will the be controversies? Sure.

Will the Democratic Party continue to be seen as the party of abortions? No. Why? Because the right will believe it has won.

Will there be fights in the states that don't prohibit abortion after Roe is overturned? Sure. So what. Those are our states now anyhow.

Do the math.

[fudge stripe cookays]

98. It's not that simple.

Some states are going to criminalize the transporting of women (especially minors, of which a good chunk of pregnancies are) over state lines to obtain abortions.

Not wanting to get caught, perhaps, in interstate felonies, women may still try back room butchers and die in the process.

This is no one's business but the woman and her doctor. And most of us will not back down on that.

FSC

[cally]

102. Travel may seem cheap to you and I

but it's still very expensive to a single Mom making mininum wage or a wife in a family barely making ends meet. Abortion will be legal and safe for the well-off, connected, and informed. It will be back to hack abortionists for the poor.

Yes, I think abortion will increase because birth control will also be restricted. You lose women's rights to their own reproductive decisions and you affects us all. The problem is that most men and older folks think of it as a decision that does not affect them. They are so wrong. We will have many more grandparenst raising babies.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Merlin]

68. Buh-Bye.

.

[elsiesummers]

69. You are right - if Roe v. Wade is overturned Democrats will galvanize

and I also think that many pro-choice Republicans who have chosen to vote pro-business, especially fiscal conservatives, will have to rethink their party alignment.

The day the Democrats give up the pro-choice fight is the day the party dies.

Democrats have to show that the Republicans morals issues are anti-business. Increased health care costs and social strife results from unwanted births/children. Increased numbers of partners among unmarried gays leads to social instability and an increase in sexually transmitted diseases - expensive to society and business. The loss of life saving and financially productive medical discoveries if stem-cell research is outsourced will hurt US stocks/business and increase US medical costs.

The votes of the intollerent that Democrats lose can be supplanted by the votes of people who want good practical government - if Democrats emphasize this properly.

As Republicans move on an increasingly theocratic path they will naturally lose some of their more secular or tollerant voters.

In Ohio one in six blacks voted Bush because of a Christian right orientation. Perhaps part of this is generational (younger black voters are more progressive) but part of this is a lack of appreciation of the precariousness of civil rights gains. If we allow gender prejudice to continue unchecked then racial prejudice may easily follow. This needs to be spelled out to anyone, even the overweight, because this may become the next protected group.

[Merlin]

76. This is one of the most naive posts I've read in recent weeks.

I would normally not pay any attention. But I am DETERMINED not to let well-meaning but completely uncomprehending voices sway my party any longer. I've been an avid, activist Democrat for my entire life--and I ain't no spring chicken. I am sick to death of naive liberals dreaming about how they are going to educate the rest of the country and thereby start winning elections.

Wake up, PLEASE!

1 in 6 blacks voted R because of the gay marriage issue. Period.

You will NEVER persuade red state Christians that abortion is ok. Never. Never. Not ever.

You think you're terribly bright and have come up with just the right things to say that will win over middle America. But when you get older you will realize just how foolish this kind of thinking is.

I urge you and others like you to GET REAL. Try actually listening to and trying to understand these Christian voters. You don't have to buy into their beliefs. Just try to understand where they're coming from.

You've got it wrong. The day the Democratic Party no longer has to defend Roe v Wade is the day we can start winning again.

[elsiesummers]

83. If the Dem Party abandon women's right to choose women abandon Democrats.

I'm far more familiar with "red states" than you think - having spent much of my life in one, born and raised a white liberal Democrat in a Red State, and visiting my home town and locals regularly.

If you think abandoning pro-choice is the answer - either you don't get it or you are trying to injure the Democrats.

[Merlin]

86. Abandoning abortion IS the answer. Do you have a better one?

Evidently you never talked to your red state neighbors or never had the capacity to actually hear and understand what they are saying.

And you do not have a viable answer for how to persuade these people that abortion is just fine and that they should start to vote Democratic again as they did before Roe.

Abortion is the single most significant obstacle to majority support for our party and for the broad sweep of its remaining agenda.

The Democratic Party does not exist for the purpose of defending abortion rights. It exists for the purpose of governing this nation. The nation--with the support of the majority of white women--has made it clear it does not support abortion rights. It will have to live with the consequences of that stupidity. It will have to learn the lesson all over again.

It is now up to the women's movement--not the Democratic Party--to find a solution to this issue that will enjoy the support of a majority of the electorate. We've been waiting a long time for an alternative solution that works. Lots of luck.

Meantime, our party is now relieved from the responsibility to keep throwing itself on this terrible sword election after election.

Remember, this IS a democracy. If you want to govern, you have to get the support of a majority.

[elsiesummers]

94. You think Dems can gain more pro-life votes than lose pro-choice votes?

This doesn't make any sense. Who are all these voters for whom pro-life is such a strong issue that they will switch to Democrats (and away from Republican voting or non-voting) because Democrats suddenly claim to be pro-life?

What makes you think pro-choice voters will remain Democratic if the pro-choice issue is abandoned?

[fudge stripe cookays]

99. Spoken like a true misogynist.

The women's movement cannot do this by itself. Groups like Planned Parenthood get half their funding from the government!

When the government is all fundies as it's heading right now, where do you think that money is going to come from? The women who are out of work and cannot contribute much except $5 here and there?

The nation--with the support of the majority of white women--has made it clear it does not support abortion rights. It will have to live with the consequences of that stupidity.
And this is patent bullshit.

70% of the people in this country believe in a women's right to choose. However, many of their votes were stolen on Tuesday too.

How nice of you to claim the Democratic party for your own, leaving women to our own devices to once again die or be maimed for trying to make choices about our own lives and our own bodies.

Welcome to my ignore list.
FSC

[hughee99]

92. The "pro-choice" republicans WILL NOT change their vote

if Roe v. Wade is overturned! While they are pro-choice, this is not the "key issue" that their vote swings on. If it was, they would already be democrats. While they may be disappointed in the overturning, they are not going to scrap the issues more important to them, just because of abortion.

[lark]

96. Jesus does not condone murder

In the Bible it says a child is born when the breath of life comes into them - not when sperm unites with egg. Terminating a "possible" life is not murder and so most abortions aren't murder. When the fetus is viable, that's a different story. Most Dems don't support late term abortions except to save a life. However, if my daughter gets raped and RU-486 (#?) isn't approved and she wants the seed of that horrible person out of her, I do want her to be able to make that choice, and do not think the Dem party should roll over for the Repugs on this. We have to stand for freedom. They are the party of murdering innocents - not us. The 100,000 Iraquis dead - that's murder, and I know Jesus does not support that!!

lark

[Edgewater_Joe]

2. I Disagree

How does banning gay marriage give somebody a sense of "control" over their lives? All it does is give them a sense of feeling superior, that there's sombody they feel better than. Meanwhile, their REAL security erodes further and further.

I'm sorry, but if the Democratic party no longer stands for tolerance and acceptance of everybody, it's not a Democratic party anymore.

Furthermore, your assessment that the Democratic GOTV efforts failed simply flies in the face of the reality of all the lines in college towns and inner-city neighborhoods -- and I do not discount the real possibility that Ken Blackwell was successful in repressing thousands of votes that should have gone Democratic. There were Diebolt machines in critical counties, there were tens of thousands of provisional ballots, and there were registrations not accepted as per Blackwell's vile instructions.

I go back to Bill Clinton's mantra: when people vote with their brains, Dems win - but when people vote their fears, Repunks win. Rove played fear like a Stratavarius and found more fearful people.

Let's see how secure that cook is in six months when she's working for $8 an hour, her son is about to be drafted to attack Syria, and she gets sick and can't get the prescription she needs.

Think she'll feel better about the fact that the queers can't get married THEN?

[mdguss]

4. It's not control over their lives:

It's some measure of power: the ability to influence other people's lives. That's why a lot of this right-wing conservatism on social issues works. We have to be moderate enough (and Kerry, with his relatively impressive vote totals was) to get our foot in the door.

Kerry came close. There are lessons to be learned from this campaign. And things that should be changed--especially in the field operations side. All in all, there are things that Kerry did right on as well, and those things should be copied by our nominees of the future.

I'm saying this because I feel like saying it: John Kerry is a great leader of the Democratic Party. Just because he had a narrow loss doesn't mean would should throw everything he did--and he did a lot of things right--out the window.

[Edgewater_Joe]

12. But It's Not A Sense Of Power

It's someone to blame to make them feel superior. Frankly, it's the abuser's mentality - I get beat up and feel crappy at work, so I'm going to go home and beat on my wife or kids and fell better that way.

I'm sorry, but as a party we absolutely CAN NOT allow that to become part of our ideology. What we need is a way to express tolerance AS a value that that woman can agree with. I agree it's damn difficult with an opposition that will whip that intolerance to a frenzy simply to maintain their control to do that, but if we don't then we don't deserve the power, either.

And I won't be part of a Democratic party that will.

[mdguss]

19. This is the debate we'll have:

First this isn't aimed at the poster. Second, liberals within the party from the CBC to the Gay rights people to the abortion rights movement have to stop saying, "If this happens we're out of the party." Nominees and party leaders spend half the time putting out internal fires.

We have to figure out a way to work together. And part of that means some groups abandoning some of their George Cutser-esque fights on things like gay marriage and partial birth abortion. Those were two absolutely stupid issues to pick a fight with the Republicans on. If we want to win, we need to frame issues a little bit better.

[Edgewater_Joe]

40. And We're Having That Debate!

Right here, right now. This is what we do as Democrats, after all.

And FWIW, I don't know of too many folks in the Democratic party who were pushing really hard for gay marriage this year. I think they DID put that issue on the back burner.

The problem was that we Dems didn't fully appreciate that the Republicans WEREN'T putting gay marriage on the back burner -- they had it on the front burner and were applying flamethrowers on the sides along with the full gas on the bottom. I had no idea the amendments would do what they did with respect to turnout, and frankly I'm not sure what we could have done if we did.

Rove sucker-punched us. On that, we have to give the S.O.B. credit.

[Merlin]

49. Good. Leave. Good riddance.

"Abuser's mentality" my ass. It's the mentality of people who are frightened by a world they cannot control, and have been propagandized into believing the cause of many of the ills in the world are demon, baby-killing, anything-goes, amoral, heathen liberals.

We have played into this scenario by supporting indefensible causes like abortion and gay marriage long enough.

If you want to blow off a dozen states and millions and millions of people who are at heart Democrats and populists and who believe in the liberal philosophical assertions of Jesus and therefore basically support our overall agenda, then join some other party. These people used to be Democrats before Roe. I want them back! If in the process we have to lose a segment of spoiled, demanding, unreasoning, uncomprehending fools with views like yours, so be it.

This party is going to RECLAIM moral values and the teachings of Jesus, and we are going to start winning the once solidly Democratic midwest farm belt states back again, because that's the right and smart and sensible thing to do. And if you don't like that or can't understand that, then I suggest you take three flying leaps and go to hell.

[Edgewater_Joe]

63. You First, Pal

The solution is NOT to re-criminalize abortion and demonize gays and lesbians. Anybody who suggests otherwise is in the wrong party.

I'm staying and fighting for the Democratic -- and CATHOLIC -- ideals of tolerance and The Golden Rule. You are embracing the "us, not them" ideology that Karl Rove just milked.

You jump.

[Merlin]

71. The way to avoid demonizing gays and lesbians is NOT to push gay marriage.

It is not demonizing gays and liberals to be against gay marriage.

To make such an assertion is to adopt the Joe McCarthy tactics of a buffoon like Rush Limbaugh.

Nor do we have any choice in overturning Roe. It's a fact of life. It's out of our hands. It's over. Get used to it. Try to deal with reality.

[Edgewater_Joe]

95. Nobody -- Repeat, NOBODY -- Was Doing That

The only people that were talking about gay marriage was the Evangelical Right thanks to Karl Rove. Once the MA Supreme Court ruled, it became a tool. I haven't seen ONE politician push gay marriage; in fact, most gay activists that I've seen did NOT push it. To claim otherwise is buying into the Rove hype and misreading what was actually happening.

[AP]

5. It could have been framed better. It should have been framed this way:

-OK, let's leave spiritual relations to the churches.

-but the government does have a role to play in making sure that people can have the financial security at home and secure personal relationships that make it easier for them in the workplace, and easier for them to conduct their private lives. So let's have the government ensure that people have the legal rights they need to conduct their lives with as little hassle as possible.

[Eric J in MN]

29. Presidents don't control Constiutional amendments.

The next Dem. nominee should just say he supports a Consitutional amendment against gay-marriage.

It will never pass anyway.

And if it did, Cosnt. amendments can't be vetoed.

[AP]

43. The next president should just say, marriage is for the churches, but the

government should be interested in mediating the legal rights, duties and obligation between individuals, between individuals and their employers, between individuals and their government, and between parents and children.

But the government should NOT be interested in mediating spirtual relationships between individuals and god, or dictating spiritual relationships for people who don't believe in any god.

Therefore, "marriage" is the domain of your church, if you have one. However, two people who want to accept the benefits of the legal rights we currently give married people, and are willing to accept all the burdens that go with those benefits, are entitled to them because the government wants to make it easier for people to work in the workplace and to have families at home.

[President Kerry]

51. we're not sellouts Eric..

We don't say what we don't mean. Maybe being honest is what's keeping us out of the WH. :(

[revree]

9. PEOPLE WHO CANNOT CONTROL THEIR LIVES OFTEN TAKE SOLACE

in controlling the lives of others. That is the Republican way. They are miserable people who need to control others to feel powerful.

[mdguss]

10. GOTV efforts came up short:

The 527s were poorly managed. There's more, but I don't particularly feel like expressing it in a public forum. Lots of money was thrown around, but it wasn't put towards the most effective field work.

Some of the most important precincts in Democratic areas underperformed. There may have been long lines, but lots of people standing in those lines were voting for Bush. We got creamed on door steps by letting the 527s. The party needs to accept that fact that it must raise around 400 million in hard money to fund GOTV efforts. That is very difficult, but if the current fundraising climate continues, it's doable.

My criticism isn't of the many volunteers (including myself) who were out there in the rain finding votes. They all did a great job and really helped John Kerry. I'm just saying that things would've been different had the party and shadow party used their efforts in a more effective fashion.

[patrice]

34. Your impression of the 527s is the same as mine.

I am a volunteer and I answered the phone for a 527s for a while, when I wasn't canvassing. The difference between the volunteers I was working with usually, and the people on the ground for that 527 was extremely obvious. I taught high school for 8 years, so I know what I'm looking at when it comes to people.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

64. I volunteered for both a 527 and the DFL here in Mpls

The organizers for the 527 were idealistic, motivated, but slightly clueless young people from out of state. The middle-aged man who was put in charge of my precinct with frustrated with their lack of attention to detail.

The DFL was super-organized. Every household in Dem-leaning parts of the Twin Cities received up to three visits from team members on Election Day until they found someone home who could be persuaded to vote. Teams of four to six went out in shifts, and with maps, lists of phone numbers, suggested spiels, and detailed instructions.

Once a team came back in, it could volunteer for a new assignment after having a snack. I went out twice before my knees gave out, but one energetic young man who was on my second team went out four times.

People living in safe Dem urban precincts were urged to "adopt a suburb." I'm not as clear about what they did in the rural areas, but I know they were organized there, too.

There was a lot of duplication of effort. Some DFL canvassers reported that people screamed at them, saying that three different groups (probably MoveOn, ACT, and the Sierra Club) had already come to their door after they had voted. (The DFL and ACT put up tags on doorknobs to indicate whether the person had been contacted before and whether they had voted.)

Anyway, the efforts paid off. Kerry got about 70% of the Twin Cities and nearly 50% in the suburbs.

[patrice]

70. One thing we are talking about in DFA is the necessity of constant canvass

ing on a regular basis, maybe 2 times a year, keyed to our local choices for candidates.

[lawladyprof]

13. But feeling superior is a lot of the issue

In 1900 the same tactic (feel superior but in those times it was feel superior to African Americans) to keep White Southerners from voting progressive/pro-Union. Same old, same old. The more things change. . . .

[Wat_Tyler]

6. Moderate on abortion?

What exactly is that a codeword for?

[NewYorkerfromMass]

8. Poor choice of words for Kerry

who voted against the Partial Birth ban.
He's moderate only in that he is Catholic and is personally opposed to it.
Also moderate, in the same way, with gay marriage.

[mdguss]

14. He was the first:

To say he understood the pro-life argument and might personally agree with it. That is a pretty moderate position for somebody who's the nominee to take.

[dolstein]

26. No it's not

Saying you "understand the feelings" of people who oppose abortion isn't enough to make you a moderate. See my post below.

[LibDemAlways]

7. The Kerry votes were probably there

and were probably cast - but weren't counted. Greg Palast has an interesting take on this on Tompaine.com in an article published this morning called "What Happened in Ohio?" His conclusion: Kerry won, but heavy suppression of minority voting stole it for the chimp. Says that minority precincts were supplied with the most decrepit machines that produced plenty of over and undervotes which could be tossed, and that many minority voters were challenged and handed provisional ballots - untold numbers of which will also be tossed. This was cheating the old-fashioned Florida 2000 way, and with an SOS more rabid than Katherine Harris.

[mdguss]

11. They weren't cast:

Bush won. I was there in person. It was painfully obvious on the street that Bush might win Ohio. I believe the numbers of the Ohio government.

[Edgewater_Joe]

17. Why Do You Believe The OH Government?

They are Republican and made no secret that they were going to act for the President in the most obtrusive ways possible, so why do you think their numbers are right?

[BeFree]

20. You believe?

What an odd thing to say.....

You won't study the evidence, you just have faith.

Go fly a kite, it would be a better use of your time.

[mdguss]

24. Listen:

numbers come in from the counties. Many democrats are there for the actual counting of the votes. Punch cards were the ballot of choice in the Ohio cities with heavy Democratic populations. There are paper records of the ballots, and there were observers all over the place. Aside from a minor problem or two, nothing happend.

It was a free and fair election. Losing hurts. But we must accept the fact that we lost. Eather than focus on conspiracy theories that explain away our pain; we should focus on how to win in the future. In time, we will win. This election was not a realignment. It continues the political environment that has been around since the 1980 election. Realignments happen every 6 or 7 cycles. We're close, and the next realignment will favor our side.

[BeFree]

37. Punch cards

Gee, didn't Florida 2000 have punch cards and it was eventually proven Gore won?

There goes your idea, right out the window. Next!

[mdguss]

38. There's a difference between 537 votes and 100,000.

Kerry lost, it's time to accept that harsh reality.

[BeFree]

47. No shit

What about provisional ballots? What about a recount? Why are you dishing this shit out? What is it about the fair voting idea that you hate?

[DancingBear]

56. I was there in person as well

And you're dead wrong. Where did you volunteer - at a country club? Did you not see the hordes of K/E signs everywhere you went? Did you not see the polls with Kerry up by 3, 4, 5 points? Did you not see the people in line for hours on end?

Those votes were cast - and stolen. You heard me - stolen. From the E-voting machines to the pnch cards, they were taken away right in front of our eyes.

"I believe the numbers of the Ohio government" - that says it all right there.

Pardon me if I don't believe ANYTHING you say.

[DancingBear]

57. Delete - double post

[Stephanie]

15. So Bigotry is Empowering to Poor People?

That's what you're telling me.

[jacksonian]

33. sure is

bigotry is very empowering. "I'm in, you're not."

All bigotry is fueled by conflict within the oppressing group. Men oppress women because it gives power among men. Whites hate blacks to deflect the differences among the whites.

Competing to control others is more palatable and less risky than competing amongst yourselves.

[RafterMan]

35. Of course it is

It always has been in the past. Why would it be any different now?

[RoyalWickedness]

16. I am sick, sick, sick to DEATH!!!!!

I am sick to death of the media and the neocons and the bible-thumpers talking about "morality." It is NOT about "morality." Stop kidding yourselves. It is about HATE and FEAR and IGNORANCE. There is nothing moral about a bloody fucking war being fought for no legitimate reason. There is nothing moral about HATING your fellow human beings because of their sexual inclinations or religious beliefs. There is nothing moral about refusing to accept the benefits of scientific research because YOU think it's offensive to YOUR god. There is nothing moral about CHOOSING to ignore the FACTS about a man who blatantly whores his alleged religion to get YOU to vote for him. If Jesus were alive today, he'd be coming down your street to kick your ignorant asses.

[progressivebydesign]

42. Yep. MORALITY is NOT having children living in POVERTY!!

That's what KILLS me in this! The right wing and some here talk about the "moral issues" that beat us. It is bigotry, plain and simple. The Rovians were BRILLIANT in framing the gay marriage issue to frighten the bigots. EVEN THOUGH Kerry was AGAINST Gay Marriage.. he supports Civil Unions. But it was a wedge issue designed to motivate the voters who think it's a moral issue.

Morality is taking care of ALL the children in America. It's immoral for children to be hungry and homeless. It's immoral for a family to struggle with unemployment. It's IMMORAL for seniors to forego medications because they can't afford them. Perhaps the image of Seniors eating dog food because they can't pay for the medicines AND food is moral. Is it moral to kill 100,000 Iraqi citizens, including massive numbers of women and children? Is it moral for the people of Halliburton and Enron and others to STEAL? I think that was in those 10 commandments. Is it MORAL for corporations to fire workers and give their jobs to people who will work in another country for pennies, so that the corp can reap RECORD profits, and the CEO can make MILLIONS in salary? Is that MORAL?

I think the issues need to be reframed and repeated over and over. Gay Marriage was not about morality, it's about bigotry and fear. We need to make the term MORAL mean caring for ALL Americans, again.

[Eric J in MN]

18. Were you with ACT?

I made phone calls for ACT one night, and I found it frustrating that I couldn't mention Kerry.

What about the Ohio Democratic Party? Did they do good GOTV?

[mdguss]

21. ODP did well, but most important stuff was left to 527s:

So while what they did was great, it wasn't systematic. The party has to realize that it must be responsible for GOTV activities.

[Eric J in MN]

27. What do you mean?

The Ohio Dem. Party did "great" but not "systematic?"

I don't understand.

[mdguss]

39. They were organized:

But they were only doing certain areas that weren't particularly important. I think they assumed that the 527s would cover the rest. Sadly, their assumption was wrong.

[Sub Atomic]

22. Issue 1 in Ohio passed with 65 percent of the vote.

This is the reason Kerry lost.

This nation is full of bigoted, self-serving, closed-minded sons of bitches.

Fuck Ohio.
Fuck Kentucky.
Fuck Florida.

Fuck all of you fucking Red States.

[Generator]

59. Yes our gay marriage ammendment passed in Oregon too

Kerry still won by a 4% margin. Last time it was almost so close there was a recount. I understand the fundie issue, but dammit, I still think they could be against gay marriage and vote Kerry.

I could be wrong. I'm just comparing two similiar issues, though I know Ohio is more Repub than Oregon.

[davepc]

91. You go F' Ohio, Kentucky, and Flordia

I WANT THEM BACK.

[dolstein]

23. Sorry, but Kerry's not moderate on abortion

A moderate on a abortion is someone who supports the basic holding of Roe v. Wade, but also supports parental consent, a ban on partial birth abortion, and who opposes federal funding of abortion.

John Kerry supports federal funding, he opposed the ban on partial birth abortion (yes, he supports a watered down version, but you and I know that if the GOP wasn't pushing the issue, he wouldn't have done even that), and I suspect he's not a big fan of parental consent either.

[mzmolly]

25. I agree on the lack of organization. Rove organized the entire GOTV

effort for the R's, we had a handful of well meaning disorganized groups doing it for us. THAT needs to change.

Further, we should not have allowed the issue of Gay Marriage to be placed on the ballots, but what we could have done, I'm not sure.

We should have placed our own "issue" on the ballot, "do you believe that children deserve an equal start in life?" or something to that effect, calling it the childrens rights law or some such thing.

[LisaM]

28. Banning gay marriage is IMMORAL.

I am tired of being called immoral. Hatred is immoral. Love and faith are not.

[Eric J in MN]

30. The Federal Marriage Amendment will never pass, anyway.

If it did, people could still have gay weddings.

[Malva Zebrina]

31. I agree that those social issues are easily understood

by those, if not without much power in their lives, those with a limited amount of thinking power in their heads.

I do not agree in order to "unite" we must give up standing for the liberal platform of justice for all peoples. We on the left, are doing the right thing by standing for this thing.

It is the right thing to do and to try to dilute it by thinning it out to appeal to those more on the right is wrong.

I will never do it again. If there is not a candidate on the ballot that will return to the right vision of justice, I will NOT vote again. I am fed up to the top of my head with holding my nose and casting a vote for a person who is juggling these issues and watering them down

No more.

[mdguss]

36. The liberals need to stop holding the party hostage:

There has to be an issue or two (not all of them) where the candidate can moderate the party's position to win. But if moderating his position loses a million liberal voters, what is the candidate to do? So we're stuck with a narrow minority of people and stuck in a losing position. Meanwhile what these movements claim to be fighting for is totally gutted.

[Edgewater_Joe]

41. Where Did Kerry Advocate Gay Marriage?

Kerry WAS moderate - it was BUSH that was being radical, and sadly that radical viewpoint worked.

[madfloridian]

44. I can see where this is going to take the Democratic Party. A shame.

Here we go again. We were not enough like the Republicans and their religious base, so next time we will be MORE like them.

Well, when do we stop trying to be like them....and energize our own base.

It may be too late.

If you run someone who tries to be like a right wing Republican alongside a REAL right wing Republican....the real one will win out every time!

Hmmmmmm can for the life of me remember who said that. Oh, it was Howard Dean.

[KoKo]

73. Agree.....Disgusting to see these "move to the right" and take away women'

rights to make decisions about their bodies.

And, to see it here...is really depressing.

[Mike L]

106. We don't have enough "base" to cover the Repuke base and the Independents

both. That's why we must come in line with middle America to survive. Do you want to see us at 30 Senate seats? Rove would LOVE that.

[Nevernose]

45. Same problem with MoveOn's GOTV

At least door-to-door. "Who the hell is MoveOn? I'm not telling you who I'm voting for."

Totally different experience when canvassing for the Democrats.

527s should stick to donations and advertising, while the state parties have two years to work on their GOTV/informational programs.

[yardwork]

46. I strongly disagree. Point one - I don't think we really lost in Ohio

Point two - Being moderate never helps. The Republicans stir up their base because they cast the arguments in simplistic, apocalyptic terms.

Democrats need to stick to our principles and fight for fair voting and clear discussion of the issues in the media.

[Onlooker]

50. So what principles do you want to fight for?

You're willing to surrendur the rights of women and gays. So, are you only willing to fight for the rights of straight men? Is that it? Or maybe not even them. After all, unions are pretty unpopular in a lot of towns. Maybe the Dems shouldn't support union issues? Environment issues sometimes lead to layoffs. Maybe the Dems shouldn't support those issues either?

My guess is you're neither gay nor female. If that's the case, then who the fuck do you think you are telling other groups not to fight for their civil rights? What kind of Democrat does that make you?

[mdguss]

53. It's not surrendering rights; it's picking the right fights:

If the abortion rights folks had picked family planning funding instead of partial birth abortion as a fight, we might have won. If the gay rights movement had picked death bed visitation rights instead of marriage as a fight, we might have won. These groups want all of their agenda now...that's a very poor tactic for the party and their movements in the long run.

[Onlooker]

62. Politics is not only about picking the right fight ...

It's about educating people, and the Democratic Party too often tries to win without educating people. The party came out against gay marriage, as did the candidates. Late in the campaign, Bush came out for civil unions. He picked up 20% of the gay vote. If Kerry had been more pro gay, he might have picked up another 1/2 million votes, which might have been enough to win another state or two. The Party has to identify its principles and stick by them. As much as I hate Bush, at least he does that. He does not make a big effort to adjust his beliefs to the electorate. We haven't had that approach since Kennedy.

[elsiesummers]

81. Agree (see post #69) Democrats can also peel away some Republicans

by standing for civil rights for all people but also for pragmatic economic policy.

Bush has played so hard to the Christian Right and has abandoned pragmatic fiscal policy to a point that I think many pro-choice fiscally conservative Republicans will only need a nudge to abandon Bush.

We Democrats are better off inviting the more tolerant and moderate of Republicans into our party than abandoning tolerance and civil rights.

Tolerance is good economic policy. Religious fundamentalism and pragmatic fiscal policy make poor bedfellows. Increasing unwanted births, destabalizing the gay community and reducing medical research are all bad economic policy.

[Nordic]

58. I couldn't disagree with you more

Embracing a DINO like Bayh? You might as well support Lieberman.

Might as well just put a big sign on your back that says "FAUX GOP"

[Lorien]

60. One more time: it's FEAR

not "values" that motivate the Bushbots. The media won't address it because they were accomplices, the people won't always admit it because they don't want to admit being pitiful, brainwashed cowards. Look at the bulk of BushCo's ad; FEAR was the message. Which was their jewel in the crown? That pathetic wolves ad. They considered the bin Laden tape a "gift", for chrissakes!

Turn of the cable TV. Better yet, kill it.

[Snellius]

61. Supposedly, Clinton told Kerry he should support the bans

on gay marriage. But Kerry refused. (Heard from the Newsweek editor this morning).

I think the Republicans' use of gay bashing to as a moral hate issue to stir up their base is little different than what the Nazis did to the Jews. Using a defenseless minority as a threat to their "moral purity".

[djg21]

74. Call me a heretic . . .

but sometimes I think I'd like to see Roe v. Wade overturned.

Only when it is gone and the issue is squarely joined before the State and Federal Legislatures will abortion rights start to matter to many in the center who voted Republican this year.

[fudge stripe cookays]

101. I didn't even need to read your profile

before assuming you were a male.

It's so easy for you to say that. Why should you worry, right?

Don't worry about any of that messy in-between period where people might die because of it.

[KoKo]

78. We are allowing "Gay Marriage" and "Abortion" to distract us once again.

This is EXACTLY what THEY want. Many of us here have a problem with "Gay Marriage" but totally support Civil Unions for survivor benefits, and support "A Woman's Right to Choose." Some here are anti-abortion.

But, to divide us here on this by saying we should go farther to the right to attact folks to the Party is only playing right into the RW Repugs hands.

Rich Repugs will always find a way to "establish a relationship" if they are gay and don't need to be in a church to do it,(or they can pay a cleric to do it for them and rent a church) and Rich Repug women will always have access to abortions.

[CWebster]

84. The people don't want an end to slavery

so we should support it to win their support.

Is that what you are saying? In other words, if we continue to follow the Republicans lead, than all we achieve is supporting the Republicans.

[Cattledog]

97. I think the debate is a little different on this...

When you think about it most African Americans would say they are against it too. The key word here is marriage and attempting to change that scares alot of people. This election is proof of that. FEAR WON! Trying to equate "slavery" and gay marriage would get a laugh from a large portion of the AA community.

Cd

[Robeson]

88. Sorry, not quite ready for a DLC takeover....

...when the Dems institutionally turn into Republican lite, then I'm out of this party. And I'm sure, I wouldn't be the only one.

[arewenotdemo]

89. "I'm so glad. I don't want them to be able to be married."

That, my friend, isn't "probably" a statement of prejudice, it clearly is one. And if good Demos can't recognize it as such then we have some serious soul-searching to do.

There's already one party without a conscience that panders to the bigots. And if you think any newcomer on the block will be able to out-whore the GOP in that regard, you should rethink. They're professionals.

[dsc]

100. Kerry isn't moderate on abortion

He is in favor of abortion being legal in all circumstances. He hasn't voted for a single bill, ever, that restricted abortion in any way, shape or form.

[Carolinian]

103. If gay marriage was so damn important why did * agree to civil unions

a couple of days prior to election day? Same thing re abortion: Why did dumbass Laura speak out in favor of upholding Roe v Wade just shy of Nov 2?

[Deja Q]

104. Good call! * is the king of petty pandering...

And worst of all, *'s supporters won't remember either.

Just as they all forgot about *'s comments on OBL between 9/13/01 and 3/13/02...)

[Mike L]

105. Mdguss, thanks for the report.

"The second reason is gay marriage. This should serve as a warning and a lesson for those in the party that want to take the party farther to the left and fight every battle with the Republicans. Those who chose to fight the gay marriage issue made gigantic mistake that cost their movement dearly--and probably set it back 45 years. Issue 1 in Ohio passed with 65 percent of the vote."

I agree this issue will kill us (more so) if we don't find some way to distance ourselves. I like the idea of the next Dem presidential candidate saying that he/she backs the gay marriage amendment. It won't get enough votes to pass in Congress anyway with the percentage of votes needed to pass a constitutional amendment.